Proof of no convictions in Ireland

Little CuChulainn · 01-03-2015 10:54AM

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Is this just be unhelpful. How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal. Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone.

Yes.

easygoing1982 · 01-03-2015 11:50AM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Yes.

A blanket answer of yes doesn't help im afraid when ive asked:

Is this just being unhelpful?

How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal?

Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone?

Little CuChulainn · 01-03-2015 11:59AM

easygoing1982 wrote: »

A blanket answer of yes doesn't help im afraid when ive asked:

Is this just being unhelpful?

How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal?

Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone?

Yes you can be sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone. This is the real world effect of eroding the power of discretion and proactively disciplining the most minor of code breaches.

Potential-Monke · 01-03-2015 05:33PM

easygoing1982 wrote: »

Is this just be unhelpful. How or why did that member help the OP if its such a big deal. Are you likely to get sacked or disciplined for going the extra mile to help someone.

It's not being unhelpful, it's giving the facts. If someone else managed to get one through some other means, then fair play, but what I posted is the truth. Stations do not do Police Certificates for just anyone.

And we're likely to get sacked/disciplined even by posting anonymously on the internet.

Yamanoto · 20-04-2016 02:39PM

I'm in a similar position to the OP & have found the process thus far to be both frustrating & unnecessarily convoluted.

I'm self-employed, based in Ireland & will be undertaking work for a German firm who require a police certificate / proof of no criminal record to satisfy their own internal procedures. I initially applied in writing to my local Superintendent, but was contacted to say Police Certs are only issued for visa applications and suchlike. I was directed to the Garda vetting unit & explained to them what I required & was advised to submit form F20 (Request for personal Data under Section 4 Data Protection Act 1988 & 2003). I was told to specify on the form that I request a copy of personal data that may be in existence within AGS specifically in respect of any prior convictions.

Three weeks on, correspondence arrives from AGS vetting unit advising that "This search failed to reveal any personal data in relation to you and accoprdingly there is no attachment containing data as required under Section 4 of the Data protection Act 1988/2003".

This is unfortunately preceded by the following in bold:

This document should not be construed as Proof of No Convictions, a Police certificate, a Garda Reference or Garda Vetting

I'm naturally reticent to forward that form on to the firm I'll be doing business with, though having spoken again with AGS vetting, they're telling me it's not possible to receive confirmation of no previous criminal convictions. That frankly seems odd to me & am wondering how best to proceed (quickly) from here.

Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated.

CB19Kevo · 20-04-2016 04:48PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

I'm in a similar position to the OP & have found the process thus far to be both frustrating & unnecessarily convoluted.

I'm self-employed, based in Ireland & will be undertaking work for a German firm who require a police certificate / proof of no criminal record to satisfy their own internal procedures. I initially applied in writing to my local Superintendent, but was contacted to say Police Certs are only issued for visa applications and suchlike. I was directed to the Garda vetting unit & explained to them what I required & was advised to submit form F20 (Request for personal Data under Section 4 Data Protection Act 1988 & 2003). I was told to specify on the form that I request a copy of personal data that may be in existence within AGS specifically in respect of any prior convictions.

Three weeks on, correspondence arrives from AGS vetting unit advising that "This search failed to reveal any personal data in relation to you and accoprdingly there is no attachment containing data as required under Section 4 of the Data protection Act 1988/2003".

This is unfortunately preceded by the following in bold:

I'm naturally reticent to forward that form on to the firm I'll be doing business with, though having spoken again with AGS vetting, they're telling me it's not possible to receive confirmation of no previous criminal convictions. That frankly seems odd to me & am wondering how best to proceed (quickly) from here.

Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated.

i have used that document as a vetting form before,It states there is no records relating to you,That should be good enough for most employers,If any issue,make them aware that you cannot obtain a standard garda vetting in Ireland and provide evidence of this.

Silly really that no proper system is in place such as the UK CRB/DBS

Little CuChulainn · 20-04-2016 06:34PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

I'm in a similar position to the OP & have found the process thus far to be both frustrating & unnecessarily convoluted.

I'm self-employed, based in Ireland & will be undertaking work for a German firm who require a police certificate / proof of no criminal record to satisfy their own internal procedures. I initially applied in writing to my local Superintendent, but was contacted to say Police Certs are only issued for visa applications and suchlike. I was directed to the Garda vetting unit & explained to them what I required & was advised to submit form F20 (Request for personal Data under Section 4 Data Protection Act 1988 & 2003). I was told to specify on the form that I request a copy of personal data that may be in existence within AGS specifically in respect of any prior convictions.

Three weeks on, correspondence arrives from AGS vetting unit advising that "This search failed to reveal any personal data in relation to you and accoprdingly there is no attachment containing data as required under Section 4 of the Data protection Act 1988/2003".

This is unfortunately preceded by the following in bold:

I'm naturally reticent to forward that form on to the firm I'll be doing business with, though having spoken again with AGS vetting, they're telling me it's not possible to receive confirmation of no previous criminal convictions. That frankly seems odd to me & am wondering how best to proceed (quickly) from here.

Any thoughts or ideas much appreciated.

It just means it cannot guarantee that you have not lied about your identity in the present or past. The document relates to info help on the person whose details were submitted, and this may not be you.

Yamanoto · 20-04-2016 07:07PM

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

It just means it cannot guarantee that you have not lied about your identity in the present or past. The document relates to info help on the person whose details were submitted, and this may not be you.

Still leaves me in a position where I'm unable to attain a document that's fit for purpose & that should be readily available to anyone capable of establishing their bona fides to an agreed standard.

Just seems like a common sense blind spot in the current system.

discus · 21-04-2016 04:53PM

glacon wrote: »

Hi Kosomoko,
Did you solve your problem? I'm exactly in the same situation. I need a proof of no conviction, I got the same response from the Gadrai and got the useless certificate from the Data Protection Processing Unit. Would be grateful for help.

I had to call in a favour off a high ranking Garda.

circular flexing · 25-04-2016 07:42PM

CB19Kevo wrote: »

Silly really that no proper system is in place such as the UK CRB/DBS

Maybe I'm not reading it right but a DBS check is employer requested.

Only employers and licensing bodies can request a DBS check. Job applicants can’t do a criminal records check on themselves.

https://www.gov.uk/disclosure-barring-service-check/overview

which I think is similar to Garda vetting?

I would have thought the potential employers themselves should be the ones doing the background check.

fisherman_joe · 27-04-2016 11:22AM

I wish I had seen this before waiting 5 weeks for a document that is essentially useless.

The process here is laughably easy in comparison for getting proof of no criminal convictions.
I filled out a form, paid it in the afternoon, and had the certificate in my postbox the next morning.

I'm honestly not sure what I should do now.

Mycroft H · 27-04-2016 09:55PM

I think the DBS in the UK contact AGS on your behalf. That's what I'm lead to belive as I've to fill in one soon enough.

Bad_alibi · 11-07-2016 09:30AM

I've done this before and it's fairly straight forward I can't see the confusion. If you require Garda vetting you fill out the form with all your details and addresses. Enter your new employers details and return the form to YUOR employer/HR section. They then forward the form to the Garda vetting unit on your behalf and the vetting unit return clearance to your employer.

My partner used this before when they worked in the UK

kosomoko · 17-02-2017 01:10AM

Hello,

The OP returns. I would like to offer some further information and some commentary on the discussion that took place after I left.

Several people have said that either one's employer in the UK or DBS (or UKSV, as it seems to be now) will do the usual Garda vetting process as if they were an Irish company. I don't know if this is ever true when one needs a UK government security clearance, but it was certainly not true in my case - obtaining SC clearance to work in the nuclear industry. In such a case, if you are asked for a "Police Certificate", then I don't believe that you have any recourse but to somehow extract one from the Gardaí - attempting to reason with a nuclear industry company or any security/defence oriented company on this matter is almost certainly futile as their rules are even more inflexible and unreasonable than the rules surrounding Garda Police Certificates.

Secondly, I would like to address the comments saying that the member who did it for me could have been disciplined/sacked. I eventually got the police certificate only after a lengthy correspondance with the Superintendent at the Garda station near my old house, whom I had never met before this. It is clear that he bent the rule slightly to help me. However, considering his rank, I'm sure he understood the rules very clearly and would not have put himself at any actual risk. I also sent him emails between me and my employer which showed that I had done everything possible to try to convince them that a Police Certificate was not the appropriate document.
-edit-
I should also make clear that this happened almost three years ago, so the situation may or may not have changed. If anybody has more up to date information (that you are certain is actually true), I would be very interested in how you fared and your experiences might be very helpful to anybody who comes across this thread - there is hardly any useful information available about these matters.

Potential-Monke · 19-02-2017 01:53PM

As circular flexing said above, potential employers should be doing the vetting. What's to stop me saying i'll get my own vetting and create a document that looks official and use that, i could have anything on, or removed from, it. By making the employer get it, the document goes straight from the Gardaí to the employer, no middleman and way less potential for fraudulent documents to be produced by the applicant.

Also, the employer has to be registered with AGS to get the vetting, as not just any company can do it for similar reasons. It's all about data protection and fraud avoidance.

kosomoko · 19-02-2017 08:05PM

Do you know if the Gardaí actually have any system in place to allow a foreign employer to request that information? As far as I am aware, they do not.
Garda vetting is clearly not applicable - not only was I not working in Ireland, but I was not even doing "Relevant work", as it is defined with respect to Garda vetting.
I think that it would place a disproportionate administrative burden on an employer in a foreign country to ask that they register with the Gardaí (if this is even possible, which I doubt) and also that they find out how to do the equivalent process with every police force in the entire world. In the UK, it is not difficult to obtain a document saying that you have no criminal record - it is perfectly natural for a UK employer to suppose that the same is true in Ireland.

I can see why prevening fraud might be the motivation for having the employer ask for the information directly, but I don't agree that there is actually a major risk in having the employee get it themselves. The employer could simply call the issuing authority to find out if the document is real if they have any concerns. This is certainly preferable to having no system whatsoever in place!

Potential-Monke · 24-02-2017 08:02PM

You're forgetting this is AGS. If there's an awkward and hoop-jumping way of doing things, that's probably the way it's done...

mel.b · 03-04-2018 10:16AM

Does anyone have any updates on this, or the best way to go about it. I have just been offered a job in Australia and will need proof of no convictions etc. I rang the e-vetting unit as I thought my employer in Australia could request to register as a relevant organisation (will be working with children in Australia, so relevant), however I was advised to complete the Data Protection Access Request form. How have people got on who have submitted this to their employer - did they accept it in the end?

mikemac2 · 07-04-2018 06:28AM

Went through this recently looking for a list of convictions (if any) for an employer abroad

The Garda on the Blanchardstown public desk got me to complete a form and include a photocopy of my passport. It would then go to the district office. Well that was completely the wrong procedure. The email I got from district office told me the below:

You have to complete form F20 and sent €6.35
https://www.garda.ie/en/About-Us/Online-Services/Garda-Vetting-unit/F20-Data-Protection-Access-Request-Form-2018.pdf

It goes to Enniscorthy. They have 40 days to reply

jasonhptan · 14-11-2018 07:07PM

Hi guys,

I wonder if there are any further updates regarding this. I recently have been offered a job and require the police certificate. I have submitted a request to the local superintendent and was returned with a reply that they do not give out these certificates for UK or EU and referred to complete the F20 form. Any latest updates regarding this? Thanks

mel.b · 14-11-2018 08:38PM

jasonhptan wrote: »

Hi guys,

I wonder if there are any further updates regarding this. I recently have been offered a job and require the police certificate. I have submitted a request to the local superintendent and was returned with a reply that they do not give out these certificates for UK or EU and referred to complete the F20 form. Any latest updates regarding this? Thanks

Hi Jason

My employer in Australia would not accept the form you get back from the F20 application. It clearly says on that it is not police cleareance (or words to that affect). I ended up going to the garda station and just begging basically, explaining the situation. Luckily i got a sympathic sargent who spoke to the superintendent for me and got it done.

KatPilar · 07-09-2019 05:08PM

Absolute joke, you can't get an easy proper police clearance in Ireland to work abroad, despite so many Irish living and working abroad. This is just crazy, I sent on the useless paper I got from the garda vetting office and hope it will be sufficient, but highly doubt it given they write in bold letters that this cannot be used as police clearance. And clearly people have had this issue for the last 10 years and AGS is just ignoring it.

Spanish Eyes · 07-09-2019 05:24PM

I think if I were pushed around like this with no information and incomplete clearance, I would write to Drew Harris and copy the Minister for Justice.

Then the Ombudsman (can't be done until all other avenues have been exhausted)

It sounds very inept to me and could clearly affect an Irish citizen's right to work in sensitive fields abroad where evidence of no previous convictions is required from the applicant.

Sir montygom · 09-06-2021 09:17AM

I need this now and it still seems like a big rigmarole to get it....

Thinking of emailing the court house and garda station and asking for a copy of my criminal record....they will reply with something like......'we don't have any'
That will have to do:D

iceage · 06-10-2021 04:11PM

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/leaving_ireland/police_certificate.html

Might help.

halfpastneverr · 05-07-2024 09:38PM

Sorry to bump an auld thread, but I've been offered work in the UK and need to provide proof of my no convictions. Young guard on the desk in my local station hadn't a clue so he called his sergeant out. The sergeant wasn't much better and advised me to come back with a copy of my passport & previous addresses and get a police cert. I told him the police cert is only for a visa and not employment going by the Garda site and citizens information. He then said he'd ask the superintendent's office on Monday & get back to me.

I also got in touch with the District Court in Dublin in the CCJ beside the Phoenix Park on the half chance they might know something. They said all they can provide is a certified copy of a court outcome & €15 stamp duty applies for each order provided & you need to provide details like the date your case was last in court. I've never been in trouble or in a court in my life, so this obviously is of no use to me either. They also said they can't provide anything that states I've no convictions and said it's the Gardai who stand over confirming convictions/no convictions.

Such a mess. You'd think the guards would want an easier way to deal with what I assume is a common enough request, considering the amount of Irish people working abroad.

kosomoko2 · 25-10-2024 02:26PM

I'm the OP again. I see a few people have wound up in this old thread looking for advice with same problem. In the 10 years since I posted this thread I've had to go through this crap with the Guards on three separate occasions, so I suppose that makes me an expert. So here is my definitive guide to getting a garda police certificate for security clearance for a job in the UK (for example, SC) or elsewhere in the world. It's been 10 years in the making, so strap yourselves in and let's go.

Introduction:

Have you been asked for an Irish Police Certificate as part of your security clearance for a job in the UK or elsewhere? Well the bad news is that this is a royal pain in the arse to obtain. The good news though, is that it is possible and I am here to tell you exactly what you need to do to get it.

Background:

Garda Police certificates are usually only issued for specific purposes, such as visa applications. Security clearance for a job is not one of the usual purposes and the Guards will tell you to get stuffed when you ask for one. This is a problem for you because it is the only document that the UK vetting authorities will accept as proof that you have not been convicted of an offence in Ireland. So in order to get your security clearance and start your new job, you must persevere and convince them to issue it.

Alternatives to a Garda Police Certificate that WILL NOT be accepted:

When you apply for a Garda Police Certificate, the Guards will try to direct you towards other routes for meeting the requirements for your security clearance. None of these will work.

Form F20 for requesting information under data protection legislation is not suitable because the document that is returned from such a request carries a caveat that it is not to be construed as a Police Certificate and it will therefore be rejected by the UK vetting authorities.
Garda vetting is also not suitable because it is only for employers in Ireland.

The basics for your application:

Some basic information here: https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/data-protection-foi-police-certificates/police-certificates.html

There is a straightforward application form and you'll need a certified copy of your passport or licence along with proof of address. That's the easy bit.

Other things you will need to include in your application:

You'll need to write a letter of explanation about why you need the Police Certificate. The tone you strike in this letter is important. Remember that you are asking them to make an exception to issue the Police Certificate - they don't necessarily have to do it, so be polite. You must also explain in an appropriate way what will happen if they don't issue it for you - i.e. you can't start your new job and your career would be derailed. You must also explain that you're aware of form F20 and Garda vetting, but these are not viable options.

You must also get your employer (or prospective employer) to write a separate letter for you to include in which they say why you need the Police Certificate and that a disclosure of information using form F20 is not suitable. This last bit is critical, there must be written confirmation from the employer that form F20 isn't suitable - otherwise the Guards will just tell you to do form F20, which is a waste of your time.

I have provided an example letter of explanation and letter from employer below.

Letter of explanation:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am applying for a Police Certificate, which I need in order to obtain security clearance to start a new job in the UK. I am aware that this is not the usual use for a Garda Police Certificate. However, the UK vetting authorities require it in order to process my application for security clearance.

It is very unfortunate that the UK requirements clash with the Garda rules for issuing Police Certificates in this situation and I realise that you are not obliged to issue it. However, if I am not able to obtain a Police Certificate, then it will prevent me from starting my new job which would be a very serious problem for me.

There are several other avenues that might be suggested for dealing with this situation, but none are suitable:

Form F20 for requesting information under data protection legislation is not suitable because the document that is returned from such a request carries a caveat that it is not to be construed as a Police Certificate and it will therefore be rejected by the UK vetting authorities.
Garda vetting is also not suitable because it is only for employers in Ireland.

So I ask you to please issue a Police Certificate for me as it is the only document that will satisfy the requirements. Or, if you don’t have the authority to do this, then I ask that you discuss it with a member who does have the authority.

I have attached the completed application form, proof of address, a certified copy of my passport and a letter from my employer requesting the Police Certificate. Please take note that the letter from my employer also explicitly says that the form F20 route is not suitable.

Yours sincerely,

[YOUR NAME]

Letter from employer:

Dear [YOUR NAME],

As previously advised, following your acceptance of our offer of employment with [COMPANY], we require certain documents from you in order to proceed with your application for security clearance. You will be required to have security clearance due to the nature of information you will have access to in the course of your work.

The required documents include:

A police certificate from An Garda Síochána as proof that you have not been convicted of an offence in Ireland.

You have asked if a disclosure under data protection legislation using Subject Access Request Form F20 would be adequate to meet the requirements. Unfortunately, such a disclosure would not meet the requirements. This is because form F20 itself carries the following note:

“A disclosure of personal data under the GDPR / Data Protection Act 2018 should not be construed as Garda Vetting, a Police Certificate, Garda Reference or Security Clearance.”

Because of this caveat, it is very likely to be rejected by the vetting authorities. For this reason, I must ask you to obtain a Garda Police Certificate to enable us to apply for your security clearance.

Yours sincerely,

[SOMEONE IMPORTANT AND OFFICIAL SOUNDING]

Final words:

There you go, if you get all those documents together and submit them to the closest Garda station to your current or former address in Ireland, then they will probably issue you a Police Certificate without much additional guff. Make sure the contact info you put in the form is correct and up to date, because there is still a good chance that they'll want to contact you for some grumbling before actually issuing it. In the event that they do continue to refuse, then I'm afraid you're in uncharted territory. In this case you'd need to escalate it somehow - possibly with the Garda Ombudsman, a TD, local councillor or anyone else who can help you kick up a fuss about their intransigence.

Good luck and Godspeed.

csirl · 25-10-2024 02:45PM

In Ireland the Gardai will issue security clearance for someone working in a sensitive area, even if that person is from overseas. The Gardai will check with the overseas police forces as part of the process.

I'm curious as to why UK does not do the same? Can you not simply apply to the UK police, give them your Irish addresses and let them take it from there?

It doesnt make sense that a job requiring security clearance would accept a certificate from an overseas country - as the assessment as to whethet someone is safe has to be done by the employers police force considering their own domestic risks.

For example, would a UK employer accept a police clearance cert from Russia or North Korea?

kosomoko2 · 25-10-2024 05:06PM

The Garda Police Certificate will just be one piece of the security clearance application to prove you don't have any convictions during your time spent in Ireland. The UK authorities will of course do other checks as well.

The UK vetting authorities probably don't have the ability to check a person's record in Ireland, or any other foreign country for that matter. That's why police certificates exist. This is how its generally handled in many different countries.

Similarly, the Guards or whoever handles security clearances in Ireland do not have the ability to check a person's UK record - not easily or on a routine basis anyway. I can't really comment on how they handle things since I've never worked in a sensitive job in Ireland, but I'd be shocked if they don't ask for foreign police certificates if an applicant has lived in other countries - they certainly should.

As for whether the UK would accept documents from Russia or North Korea, that would be up to the vetting authorities to decide. Someone who has lived in a country like that would face increased scrutiny and would likely have a hard time getting security clearance.

But anyway none of that matters. I'm here to give people practical advice about what they actually need to do and if you're applying for security clearance in the UK and you've lived in Ireland, you will require a Garda Police Certificate.

Proof of no convictions in Ireland

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