Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:29AM

mcmoustache wrote: »

Well, it brought us from something like India to something like Denmark in 30 years so yeah, I think it's pretty cool. My parents and grandparents grew up in poverty but I didn't and open markets had a lot to do with that. The EU isn't perfect and neither are banks, shops, garages, jobs or hammers but we don't stop using them just because they aren't perfect.

I grew up in the UK before the EU went all superstate and also spent a lot of my youth and early career in 5 of its overseas territories.

Imreoir2 · 04-09-2019 12:30AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Deal without backstop as we all know the backstop is to lock the UK into the level playing field which they know full well is a trap for them.

You accuse us of not understanding the "realities" of UK politics, yet you seem not to understand the realities of EU politics. There will not be a deal without the backstop, not today, not tomorrow, not on Oct 31st and not in January either.

Strazdas · 04-09-2019 12:31AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Now I don't want this to sound elitist or anything, but realistically few will have seen JRB live (watching it live is important) on the Commons benches snoozing away while his country's future is being debated.

Seems to me that it is a two fingured gesture from JRM to everyone else speaking and debating in the Commons. Beneath him to get involved.

But the reality is, and I am sorry to say it, the vast majority in UK (apart from activists) do not care, do not engage, and just want it all to be over.

Must be the FPTP system or something. I find people here with PR much more engaged in politics.

I saw an opinion poll which said a huge number of people who voted in the referendum had virtually no interest in politics. It explains much of the nutiness of the last three years : a disinterested and politically ignorant electorate demanding that their 'will' be implemented

Kermit.de.frog · 04-09-2019 12:34AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I grew up in the UK before the EU went all superstate and also spent a lot of my youth and early career in 5 of its overseas territories.

What version of the UK would you like to go back to?

A decade would suffice for us.

maebee · 04-09-2019 12:35AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I grew up in the UK before the EU went all superstate and also spent a lot of my youth and early career in 5 of its overseas territories.

You've ignored my question but I'll try again. What is it that "is happening"?

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:36AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What version of the UK would you like to go back to?

A decade would suffice for us.

No issue with the new member states such as poland, much welcome but I would like the club as loose as it was in the 1980s. That is enough.

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:37AM

maebee wrote: »

You've ignored my question but I'll try again. What is that "is happening"?

I have answered. I stated that there is nothing in tonight that was not highlighted all week and that the media is still feeding you stories and still has no idea on the public opinion.

Grandpa is toast in the election.

Lucy8080 · 04-09-2019 12:39AM

bobmalooka wrote: »

Farage absolutely would stand in the way - brexit end game makes him redundant. He needs to strike a balance between being relevant and getting what he says he wants.

Farage has publicly been angling for a pact, I suspect to use as a stick to whack the tories if they delay, revoke or passed a deal.
Brexit party is the elephant in the room and Johnson needed to take them out. I think whatever strategy he was trying to pull off was influenced by trying to eliminate them.

Now that Johnson and Cummings have snookered themselves my concern is that they may see a pact with Farage as the only option to keep in the game - and hope to neutralize brexit party later.

So while tonight was a good moment for sensibility, the stakes have gone higher again, it’ll take even more dangerous maneuvers for the leavers to succeed - and the players haven’t been shy of risk to date.

Even more madness to come I think

For me, Farage seems to be beating the "No Deal only" drum recently. Boris is being accused by his enemies/opposition of not being interested in a deal. I think he has stolen Farages ground today. He also appeals to the moderate brexiters by asking for a mandate to try for a Deal .

Farage can scupper the Tories,but if he does he then opens the door for brexit in name only or even a peoples vote/second ref. He has a bit of head scratching to do.

But ,yeah ,definitely more madness to come-the tension is palpable watching all this unfold.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-09-2019 12:40AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No issue with the new member states such as poland, much welcome but I would like the club as loose as it was in the 1980s. That is enough.

And you think that that is more achievable with the UK outside (being kicked around forever more by the EU) and no say instead of inside with a say?

mcmoustache · 04-09-2019 12:41AM

maebee wrote: »

Can you please answer my question "What do you mean when you said it's happening"
What exactly is "happening"?

"It" is happening. "It" can be so loosely defined that "It" can be whatever you want it to be, yet not be pinned down enough that you can be called out on it.

"It" is more of a feeling. Like a bell going off in your tummy. That feeling you get when you see a bull going at it with a cow as you drive along the motorway, the scent of earth after the first rain in a fortnight, the laughter of a child as they catch their first butterfly.

"It"'s not something tangible - it's much more ethereal.

To ask that "It" be explained to you would be to demand that the guy put into words what "It" was, which, simply put, is too much to ask. Only a poet could perform such a feat.

Infini · 04-09-2019 12:42AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No issue with the new member states such as poland, much welcome but I would like the club as loose as it was in the 1980s. That is enough.

The truth is that time marches on though and the future is one of those dominated by Large blocks such as China and the US. The whole reason for the EU's creation was to turn it into a formidable block to push back against the likes of Trumps America (to be more accurate it was that Europe was in ruins and had the USA and USSR on either side pushing for control) that would try to bully their own way in trade agreemenets.

I mean look at this whole mess and the fact that a small country like ourselves as part of this is able to wield more power to basically not put up with the UK's political shenanigans anymore while they are basically finding out the hard way that by not being a part of this they basically get nothing and can like it.

The EU's not perfect it's like any project a work in progress it has strenghts and weaknesses that need to be dealt with but it's far better to be part of a group of like minded nations and working together on fixing problems than having to deal with the like's of Boris's or Trump's attitude and not being able to do anything about it.

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:44AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And you think that that is more achievable with the UK outside (being kicked around forever more by the EU) and no say instead of inside with a say?

You really think the EU will be kicking around the UK forever? Really?

The economic reasons for brexit in the UK will see it not kicked around by the EU. I think the US is about to give the EU the shoeing of its life on trade. That is the only kicking I see. I would try to distance myself from that if i was the UK.

maebee · 04-09-2019 12:44AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

I have answered. I stated that there is nothing in tonight that was not highlighted all week and that the media is still feeding you stories and still has no idea on the public opinion.

Grandpa is toast in the election.

Sorry, I'm a bit dim. Can you please let me know what "It's happening" means?

What is happening?

What is the "it" that's happening?

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:47AM

Infini wrote: »

The truth is that time marches on though and the future is one of those dominated by Large blocks such as China and the US. The whole reason for the EU's creation was to turn it into a formidable block to push back against the likes of Trumps America (to be more accurate it was that Europe was in ruins and had the USA and USSR on either side pushing for control) that would try to bully their own way in trade agreemenets.

I mean look at this whole mess and the fact that a small country like ourselves as part of this is able to wield more power to basically not put up with the UK's political shenanigans anymore while they are basically finding out the hard way that by not being a part of this they basically get nothing and can like it.

The EU's not perfect it's like any project a work in progress it has strenghts and weaknesses that need to be dealt with but it's far better to be part of a group of like minded nations and working together on fixing problems than having to deal with the like's of Boris's or Trump's attitude and not being able to do anything about it.

EU is too different and a lot more left leaning. The UK would be better focused on a trade block that is more global with its Five Eyes partners which would see more politically, and culturally aligned nations stand together with a much wider global reach.

joe40 · 04-09-2019 12:47AM

If the brexiteers feel that it is the wish of the British people to leave the EU with or without a deal, why fear another referendum?

Are they worried that people may have changed their mind?

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:47AM

maebee wrote: »

Sorry, I'm a bit dim. Can you please let me know what "It's happening" means?

What is happening?

What is the "it" that's happening?

It = Brexit

Rule divergence,

Kermit.de.frog · 04-09-2019 12:48AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

You really think the EU will be kicking around the UK forever? Really?

Yes I do.

You are about to find out the hard way the circumstances for countries that survive on the edge of the bloc that have absolutely no choice but to sign up to certain EU institutions with no say just to trade.

And if they don't sign up - tough. They don't get a trade deal or special treatment.

It's better to be inside the tent peeing out than outside peeing in.

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:49AM

joe40 wrote: »

If the brexiteers feel that it is the wish of the British people to leave the EU with or without a deal, why fear another referendum?

Are they worried that people may have changed their mind?

EU election done, general elections, and now for another.

To have a 2nd referendum without acting on this first is tinpot and will damage UK democracy.

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:50AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yes I do.

You are about to find out the hard way the circumstances for countries that survive on the edge of the bloc that have absolutely no choice but to sign up to certain EU institutions with no say just to trade.

And if they don't sign up - tough. They don't get a trade deal or special treatment.

It's better to be inside the tent peeing out than outside peeing in.

Suuure

THe EU will give Canada a free trade deal and keep the UK out in the cold, "kicking it forever".

How old are you and do you have any idea how the world works?

joe40 · 04-09-2019 12:52AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

EU election done, general elections, and now for another.

To have a 2nd referendum without acting on this first is tinpot and will damage UK democracy.

They have tried and failed to act on the referendum. No other way out at this stage

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:53AM

joe40 wrote: »

They have tried and failed to act on the referendum. No other way out at this stage

Remain Parliament. The public now know. The GE will be clear.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-09-2019 12:55AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Suuure

THe EU will give Canada a free trade deal and keep the UK out in the cold, "kicking it forever".

How old are you and do you have any idea how the world works?

Tell us a single thing the EU has given the UK in these negotiations....just one "win".

cryptocurrency · 04-09-2019 12:56AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Tell us a single thing the EU has given the UK in these negotiations....just one "win".

They have not even started yet. May and Ollie Robins don't count at all.

Did you see May even sat with the remainer alliance today in full view of the commons.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-09-2019 12:57AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

They have not even started yet. May and Ollie Robins don't count at all.

Did you see May even sat with the remainer alliance today in full view of the commons.

Do you think this is a negotiation of equals?

mcmoustache · 04-09-2019 12:58AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Tell us a single thing the EU has given the UK in these negotiations....just one "win".

Well, there was that extension when the Brits couldn't get their sh!t together so that's sort of a win.

But who knows, when all those international trade negotiators come online, we'll all be quaking in our boots.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 04-09-2019 12:59AM

Is a lot of this trouble to do with some British wanting to go back to a time where they feel things were better and simpler?

My wife's grandfather spent his first couple of years as a child living on a British army barracks in India. In his lifetime Britain went from still having an empire to huge internal fighting and the UKs future now being in doubt.

Strazdas · 04-09-2019 12:59AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No issue with the new member states such as poland, much welcome but I would like the club as loose as it was in the 1980s. That is enough.

The changes that happened from the 1980s onward were totally inevitable.

Name me one international organisation that stands still for 30-40 years and fails to change, evolve and not grow bigger? It's complete fantasy stuff from the Brexiteers that the EEC / EU could somehow have 'frozen' in 1985 and not evolved any further.

mcmoustache · 04-09-2019 01:01AM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

They have not even started yet. May and Ollie Robins don't count at all.

Did you see May even sat with the remainer alliance today in full view of the commons.

They've had three years. You'll need to forgive people's skepticism here. This was Johnson's opening day and it started with failure. And no, it wasn't some kind of 4d chess move or a "blinder" as one of the more satirical posters described it.

Kermit.de.frog · 04-09-2019 01:01AM

https://twitter.com/thhamilton/status/1169007828838834176

Tell me how · 04-09-2019 01:02AM

Derek Eager Registrar wrote: »

Is a lot of this trouble to do with some British wanting to go back to a time where they feel things were better and simpler?

My wife's grandfather spent his first couple of years as a child living on a British army barracks in India. In his lifetime Britain went from still having an empire to huge internal fighting and the UKs future now being in doubt.

Think there is a lot of truth in this. They are collectively experiencing a crisis of conscious. At least those remaining of the 17.4M are.

Unsurprising, a good portion of the population grew up on tales of British superiority, can understand (but not agree) why they have a problem with the EU for this reason even though it is regressive to have decided to deal with it in this way.

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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