Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 12:22PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Obviously prorogation itself is fairly routine. It's its use strategically in this context that is causing consternation. However if it turns out to be legal then there's not much anyone can do.

It's fairly routine (between sessions of parliament) but only for a few days normally. At party conference time, the HoC goes into recess for approximately three to three and a half weeks, but crucially the HoL doesn't and committees continue to sit as well. So this is far from routine.

Bit cynical · 31-08-2019 12:28PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's fairly routine (between sessions of parliament) but only for a few days normally. At party conference time, the HoC goes into recess for approximately three to three and a half weeks, but crucially the HoL doesn't and committees continue to sit as well. So this is far from routine.

Well in fairness I did say that its use in this context was causing controversy.

Infini · 31-08-2019 12:36PM

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Its not washing the chicken in chlorine that is the problem, its why you have to do it in the first place. Its a less than satisfactory response to shoddy health standards. Food standards are way worse in the US and the rates of food poisining are greatly higher as a result. Food poisining is rare here, it seems to be a fairly normal occurance in the US.

In one of the previous threads a look up of the statistics showed food poisoning in the US is 3 times that of the EU, that's the result of having more stringent regulations: Quality.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 12:47PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Well in fairness I did say that its use in this context was causing controversy.

Well you also used the word 'strategically', as if this was the only thing causing consternation. I'm pointing out that the length is also an issue and that supporters of the move pointing to the conference season recess are being disingenuous as well.

briany · 31-08-2019 12:48PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

Obviously prorogation itself is fairly routine. It's its use strategically in this context that is causing consternation. However if it turns out to be legal then there's not much anyone can do.

I suppose it's a bit like a scary film where two people are being chased by an axe-wielding maniac. They jump into their car, and before they even attempt to go, the driver turns to the other guy and says, "Before we can set off, I have this procedure to run through a checklist to ensure the vehicle is in good working order."

Like, just start the car, ffs.

Sam Russell · 31-08-2019 12:48PM

[QUOTE=who the fug;111132308]there is nothing wrong with GM/Chlorinate food

We have been genetically modify animals for centuries by selective breeding, and prepacked salads are already washed in chlorine.[/QUOTE]

It is not the chlorination that is bad, it is why it is chlorinated that is bad. It is used to combat appalling husbandry in chicken rearing and processing. The outbreaks of food poisoning in the USA is orders of magnitude greater than in the EU due to poor hygiene in chicken products.

As for GM food, some GM is used for controlling the product, to maintain patent rights and prevent the seeds of the produce from being used for future crops. Some of it is used to make it easy to use insecticides in farming.

Neither is good for humans or nature.

MrMusician18 · 31-08-2019 12:50PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Not really.
Trump has spoken in favour of Brexit and media here and in the states have reffered to Boris as the English Trump.

Warning rough estimates and scrap of paper maths coming!

It would only take a small element of the 40% of American population that support Trump to match the number of No-Deal Brexiteers.

327 mill in states - 40% support Trump = 130M

66 million in Britain - 20% support no deal = 13.2 M

proportion of Brexiteers retweeting = 11152/13200000 = 0.00084484848
proportion of Trumper tweeting = 1025/66000000= 0.0000155303

Tweets per million supporters is
8448 for brexiteers vs 155 for Trumpers
sounds acceptable to me given how cloesely aligned they are.

Even if we took all the brexit supporters to be circa 40%
4224 vs 155 would be acceptable to me as well.

Having said that I would believe Cummings is at his tricks, but that thread doesn't prove it in the slightest.

Cummings must be delighted that the online commentariat consider him to be this God like puppetmaster controlling everything.

It's obviously total rubbish, and someone that belongs in the conspiracy theory forum not a serious political one.

10000maniacs · 31-08-2019 12:51PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Not really.
Trump has spoken in favour of Brexit and media here and in the states have reffered to Boris as the English Trump.

Warning rough estimates and scrap of paper maths coming!

It would only take a small element of the 40% of American population that support Trump to match the number of No-Deal Brexiteers.

327 mill in states - 40% support Trump = 130M

66 million in Britain - 20% support no deal = 13.2 M

proportion of Brexiteers retweeting = 11152/13200000 = 0.00084484848
proportion of Trumper tweeting = 1025/66000000= 0.0000155303

Tweets per million supporters is
8448 for brexiteers vs 155 for Trumpers
sounds acceptable to me given how cloesely aligned they are.

Even if we took all the brexit supporters to be circa 40%
4224 vs 155 would be acceptable to me as well.

Having said that I would believe Cummings is at his tricks, but that thread doesn't prove it in the slightest.

There has always been illiberal, closed minded hidebounds in all societies. It's only in the last five years that this sector of society have found their voice in a piece of technology that they can all use. The smartphone. The great leveller. Thanks Steve Jobs. The flat earth community has grown exponentially in the last five years thanks to the smartphone. Go figure.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 12:52PM

Infini wrote: »

In one of the previous threads a look up of the statistics showed food poisoning in the US is 3 times that of the EU, that's the result of having more stringent regulations: Quality.

The CDC (Center for Disease Control in Atlanta) say that 1 in 6 US citizens will suffer a food borne illness every year. However, the CDC rely on reports from hospitals and medical professionals for this statistic. The reality is that people on low incomes who do not have health insurance and who are more exposed to food borne illnesses are not included in those statistics. It is believed that if they were, the stat would be closer to 1 in 3. Whether you agree or not with this, 3,000 deaths a year is a frightening statistic from an advanced economy.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 31-08-2019 12:56PM

devnull wrote: »

I just had a look at that article from British State TV and I read the first line of the article and I was shocked. It could have said in the opening paragraph that cheesemakers and cheesemongers believe that their products are being unfairly criticised, but instead it posted an opinion almost as fact.

It was almost like it had been a plant by the right wing of the Tory party and the article is there for whitewashing purposes to assist their paymasters in the government. With the Tory party now refusing to speak to Channel 4 and setting pre-conditions for any interviews, it's likely that this won't get any better.

British State TV really has fallen down so far from the reputation that it had in the past and this is just one of many other examples. It's just a mouthpiece for the government these days.

The BBC is an establishment platform, always was. It’s leftish to an extent but falls in line when neeed.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 12:58PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The BBC is an establishment platform, always was. It’s leftish to an extent but falls in line when neeed.

The BBC is a hostage to the licence fee. Always has been. I think it even came up in an episode of Yes Minister.

L1011 · 31-08-2019 01:01PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

The BBC is a hostage to the licence fee. Always has been. I think it even came up in an episode of Yes Minister.

C4s role as commercial state broadcaster is coming in to its own here. And to think it was born of Thatcher!

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 01:11PM

Useful thread for those who might have difficulty explaining exactly how the GFA relies on an open border, the role of the EU and how the British government are (and have been) reneging on their responsibilities therein.

https://twitter.com/castlvillageman/status/1167745632146210817
https://twitter.com/castlvillageman/status/1167745645417041920
I've left out some of the tweets (it's 18 long), but well worth reading in its entirety.

sink · 31-08-2019 01:32PM

devnull wrote: »

I just had a look at that article from British State TV and I read the first line of the article and I was shocked. It could have said in the opening paragraph that cheesemakers and cheesemongers believe that their products are being unfairly criticised, but instead it posted an opinion almost as fact.

It was almost like it had been a plant by the right wing of the Tory party and the article is there for whitewashing purposes to assist their paymasters in the government. With the Tory party now refusing to speak to Channel 4 and setting pre-conditions for any interviews, it's likely that this won't get any better.

British State TV really has fallen down so far from the reputation that it had in the past and this is just one of many other examples. It's just a mouthpiece for the government these days.

To be fair to them, the article is not inaccurate. Sure its a PR piece designed to boost the reputation of US artisan cheeses, but it doesn't contain any outright falsehoods. I was in California earlier in the year and went to a farmers market in the Nappa Valley region and they had some really great cheeses paired with Californian wines. The were absolutely on par with anything I've tried in Europe.

The problem where it falls down is that it is an extremely niche market. You wont find much high quality cheese in your average supermarket in the US. You might find a cheese counter in upper market stores like Whole Foods, selling a mixture of European imports and local artisan varieties for $30-$50 per lb. But the selection will be far smaller and much more expensive than even your average European supermarket.

Middle class Americans might buy a cheese board for a dinner party when they're trying to impress their guests but they will almost never included high quality Brie or Cheddar as part of their weekly shop.

If the UK looks to a trade deal with the US to replace their European supply on supermarket shelves they will find slim pickings.

Water John · 31-08-2019 01:39PM

If a person is saying, we have used GM on foods for centuries, they have no knowledge of the technology.

Popeleo · 31-08-2019 01:39PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

The CDC (Center for Disease Control in Atlanta) say that 1 in 6 US citizens will suffer a food borne illness every year. However, the CDC rely on reports from hospitals and medical professionals for this statistic. The reality is that people on low incomes who do not have health insurance and who are more exposed to food borne illnesses are not included in those statistics. It is believed that if they were, the stat would be closer to 1 in 3. Whether you agree or not with this, 3,000 deaths a year is a frightening statistic from an advanced economy.

Add to all that - possible antibiotic resistance from antibiotics being used routinely in the US and other places to boost animal growth. Much tighter controls in the EU.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 01:40PM

sink wrote: »

Middle class Americans might buy a cheese board for a dinner party when they're trying to impress their guests but they will almost never included high quality Brie or Cheddar as part of their weekly shop.

If the UK looks to a trade deal with the US to replace their European supply on supermarket shelves they will find slim pickings.

I found the price of food in the US (granted it was California) to be significantly higher than here and even higher again than a lot of European countries. Fruit and vegetables were eye-wateringly expensive. And California is a big producer. As for Wholefoods, unbelievably expensive. I remember when Amazon bought them, the comments on the price paid being about right for a basket of groceries there were hilarious.

Water John · 31-08-2019 01:42PM

Again a multiple of antibiotics are used on animals compared to humans in the US, 3:1 I think.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 01:46PM

Water John wrote: »

If a person is saying, we have used GM on foods for centuries, they have no knowledge of the technology.

This is part of a disinformation campaign in favour of GM. What they are actually referring to is breeding, cross-breeding, hybridisation and selection. Which are nothing like the way GM is carried out or its methodology.

BluePlanet · 31-08-2019 01:47PM

Is there any information available about driving with a UK plate here after an assumed No Deal brexit?
If so this is information that people in the border region need to know about, including the reasons why extra steps are required.

The government would do well if they sent some informational pamphlets to people and farmers in the border area.
Perhaps even hosting a sort of Brexit Town Hall discussion with locals in their communities; particularly when mitigating factors come into play such as road closures.

SeaBreezes · 31-08-2019 01:47PM

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 01:51PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

They also lose a huge food provider, right on their doorstep. 400,000 tonnes of beef a year, 80,000 tonnes of cheese. Those are just the highlights.

Charles Babbage · 31-08-2019 01:56PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

Retaining or removing the backstop has no significant effect on GB-ROI trade and is no excuse for "hanging tightly to avoid the backstop".

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 01:58PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

Is there any information available about driving with a UK plate here after an assumed No Deal brexit?
If so this is information that people in the border region need to know about, including the reasons why extra steps are required.

The government would do well if they sent some informational pamphlets to people and farmers in the border area.
Perhaps even hosting a sort of Brexit Town Hall discussion with locals in their communities; particularly when mitigating factors come into play such as road closures.

Well here's the information on driving licences. Driving with a foreign plate has always had the same rules and they won't change after brexit. You can't live here and drive a car with a foreign plate after (three months iirc). You must formally import the car and pay VRT if applicable. Otherwise, you're like any tourist and can drive a foreign plate for short visits.

CelticRambler · 31-08-2019 02:00PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

Is there any information available about driving with a UK plate here after an assumed No Deal brexit?
If so this is information that people in the border region need to know about, including the reasons why extra steps are required.

The government would do well if they sent some informational pamphlets to people and farmers in the border area.

What's wrong with people doing a bit of the leg- (or finger-)work themselves? One poster on this thread has already said what happens when the government sends pamphlets.

For reference:
the Irish government's advice - https://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Brexit/
the UK government's advice - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit

prawnsambo · 31-08-2019 02:01PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Retaining or removing the backstop has no significant effect on GB-ROI trade and is no excuse for "hanging tightly to avoid the backstop".

Well retaining the backstop implies passing the WA, which would of course maintain trade between the two countries for at least another two years. The opposite is true if it's rejected.

SeaBreezes · 31-08-2019 02:05PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Retaining or removing the backstop has no significant effect on GB-ROI trade and is no excuse for "hanging tightly to avoid the backstop".

Actually Boris suggested removing the backstop and all Ireland joining with U.K. Customs!! Ha ha ha ha ha ... cause you can trust Boris, right? :-) now I know why... they make the most money from us!!

CelticRambler · 31-08-2019 02:06PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

They also lose a huge food provider, right on their doorstep. 400,000 tonnes of beef a year, 80,000 tonnes of cheese.

And this is one of the reasons why Ireland's economy will not be destroyed. For all that Brexiters might drool at the thought of importing cheap beef and chicken from America in the future, their constituents will really want to keep eating in the present. Irish (and continental) supermarkets and food processors have had the luxury of being able to look for new suppliers from any one of 26 other countries; British customers haven't had that luxury, so in the short term at least, they'll have no choice but to keep using their existing sources, whatever the price.

Flex · 31-08-2019 02:14PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

Im firmly of the opinion that the reason the backstop is so impossible to stomach for the UK government, and especial the Conservative Party and Conservative voters is because its the first time in history that Ireland has made its concerns known and asserted its right not to be abused on trodden over by Great Britain.

Brexit is forcing a lot of self-reflection regards the UKs eminence and power in the world today based on how they in fact do not hold all of the cards in discussions with the EU and have not got the easiest trade deal ever, the German car manufacturers not only arent putting pressure on for an agreement, but have made it clear the single market is more important and want that protected. This is difficult enough for that type of person, however the notion that Ireland and the Irish will be getting a legal guarantee (because thats all the backstop is, a legal guarantee the UK government will actually do what it claims its 100% committed to doing anyway) is beyond comprehension.

We take it as normal that UK government officials have said we need to know our place, if we dont like it we can lump it, they should cut off our food supply if we dont fall in line, but imagine another western European country saying that about a neighbour; Germany about Denmark, France about Belgium, or perhaps Russia about Finland or any other eastern EU member in matters that materially impact that member. Its absolutely not in anyway normal or acceptable. If the EU was even half-heartedly suggesting blockading food from entering Switzerland over a disagreement to force them to fall in line, I would feel very worried and very angry, however as mentioned, this attitude from GB to Ireland is nearly just seen as normal. It reflects the relationship that previously existed for centuries and it is precisely why the backstop cannot be stomached by the Conservatives.

lawred2 · 31-08-2019 02:17PM

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Fiercely interesting. Loved the stats about trade. Ireland is the UKs fifth largest trading partner AND the first for which they make a profit... wow didn't know that. No wonder the U.K. Is hanging tightly to avoid the backstop. They lose Ireland trading, they lose their highest and most profitable trading partner!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dmjTPr8j5p4

How does avoiding the backstop maintain UK/ROI trade?

Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

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