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Property Market 2019

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    #3122
    Bigmac1euro
    Registered Users Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭Bigmac1euro


    SozBbz wrote: »
    Interesting to point back to the late 80's. Yes people often cant get over how cheap houses seemingly were. But you absolutely needed a 10% deposit back then and at times during the late 80s and early 90s, interest rates were up as high as 15%.

    I've spoken to my parents about that time and they told me that even though looking back, the buy price on their house seemed cheap, paying it back did not feel cheap and the high rates were making everyone very nervous.

    The point i'm making is a 2400 pound deposit was handy to achieve even if the salaries weren't as good and yes interest rates were massive but overall it was far easier to be able to achieve the position to purchase during this time and its pretty common knowledge at this stage it was also done on 1 income.
    Its nowhere close to having to save 40k in today's terms. We have it pretty tough now but its not impossible once you stop #doingit4thegram and blowing your wages.


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    #3123
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,647 ✭✭✭elefant


    airportgirl83 wrote: »
    It is not necessarily easier to buy properties in the Netherlands atm Prices are at all times high (even excluding Amsterdam). Rents are also high and like here people struggle to save.

    However, you can borrow more than 3.5 times salary, they are building "up" and in some cities it's not allowed to buy a new house to rent.

    Yes, absolutely. Prices per square metre are crazy in all the big cities.


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    #3124
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Its a hard decision for anyone to make to buy. People will be in different scenarios and have different needs. At the moment Brexit is causing a flutter but thats all it will be there will be nothing like 2008 as the basic economic qualifier of supply vs demand means prices will not drop much. 2/3 years they will rebound. That is my opinion on it. I would not tell anyone to buy , sell or rent but just say that do what is right for you situation if you have a deposit and it is cheaper to pay a mortgage than to rent then its a no brainer.


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    #3125
    SozBbz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    The point i'm making is a 2400 pound deposit was handy to achieve even if the salaries weren't as good and yes interest rates were massive but overall it was far easier to be able to achieve the position to purchase during this time and its pretty common knowledge at this stage it was also done on 1 income.
    Its nowhere close to having to save 40k in today's terms. We have it pretty tough now but its not impossible once you stop #doingit4thegram and blowing your wages.

    I'm agreeing with you, just providing a bit of context.

    My parents bought their house for £55k back in 1984. As I say Ive spoken to them about this and they just think its not comparable to today, that even though prices now seem astronomical, people somehow felt poorer in the 80's. Wages generally were low, unemployment was significant and interest rates high. Their view is that looking back it seems great, but they remember having to save and sacrifice too.

    IMO its always taken some effort to get yourself in a place to buy a home. I honestly don't know where some people spend their money for it all to be gone by the end of the month.


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    #3126
    accensi0n
    Registered Users Posts: 2,742 ✭✭✭accensi0n


    fliball123 wrote: »
    I would not tell anyone to buy , sell or rent but just say that do what is right for you situation if you have a deposit and it is cheaper to pay a mortgage + home insurance + mortgage protection + LPT + repair/replacements costs + stamp duty than to rent then its a no brainer.

    FYP. :pac:


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    #3127
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Make sacrifices. It's not that hard.

    You can't have everything in life. You know it's funny that if you go around a new estate and look at the cars, you'll notice how many 171, 161 SUVs there are. You'd think if they were so hard up they'd be putting that 20+k to a deposit on the house?

    It's easy as fcuk to save. If you're single on 35k+ or a couple on 70k+ you should be saving 10k+ (single) or 20k+ (couple) a year for a deposit.

    Someone on 35k takes home 2400 a month. Firstly, if he's single and wants to save for a deposit he needs to house share. Sorry, but expecting everything in life is head in the clouds stuff. You can't have it all.

    So, move into a house share.

    Ok...house share, can get somewhere for 650 a month which would be nice.

    That's 1800 a month left to play with.

    800 into savings. That's 250 a week you can play with. Food can be done for 10 euro a day. That's 170 a week for transport, daily costs, bills etc.

    Very achievable and that's for 35k.

    I think people are on instagram too much seeing wans off abroad 3 or 4 times a year and thinking that they should have a right to do that, own a home, own a nice car, own a nice phone etc.

    This post is entirely vacuous.

    Who is expecting everything? Who on 35k a year is expecting to live alone and save for a deposit at the same time? Nobody. Your argument is entirely straw man, it exists only in your head.

    Looking at cars in estates? What are you actually on about?

    "I see people on instagram too much". Good grief. What next, are you going to be ranting about avocado toast? At least you've finally progressed past this "move home with mummy and daddy" and "sure get mummy and daddy to give you the money" notion.

    When did you buy your house?


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    #3128
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    accensi0n wrote: »
    FYP. :pac:


    true but look at what you get on the other side. No rise in costs, assurance of a house over your head, the ability to change what you want to what you want. Yeah there are other costs but rent is only going up at the moment as well.

    At the end of the day your either paying for your own place or for someone elses and if you get to OAP status before you buy and your still renting where will you live?? what price for certainty and security?


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    #3129
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    accensi0n wrote: »
    FYP. :pac:

    All this stuff almost certainly isn't cheaper for me than paying for the house I bought but I wasn't going for the cheapest thing, I was going for the best thing for me + the family.


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    #3130
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,445 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    All this stuff almost certainly isn't cheaper for me than paying for the house I bought but I wasn't going for the cheapest thing, I was going for the best thing for me + the family.


    As I said I wouldnt advice anyone buying or selling, I can see a small dip with brexit, but once that is out of the way supply vs demand will be still there. Do whats best for you and yours.


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    #3131
    SozBbz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    All this stuff almost certainly isn't cheaper for me than paying for the house I bought but I wasn't going for the cheapest thing, I was going for the best thing for me + the family.

    This is another phenomonen.

    People will rent what they need but will buy (or try to buy) what they can.

    You regularly see couples renting 1 or 2 bed apartments, but will only consider buying a 3 or 4 bed house.

    So thats a strong demand for rent of smaller properties and the purchase of larger ones.


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    #3132
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    awec wrote: »
    This post is entirely vacuous.

    Who is expecting everything? Who on 35k a year is expecting to live alone and save for a deposit at the same time? Nobody. Your argument is entirely straw man, it exists only in your head.

    Looking at cars in estates? What are you actually on about?

    "I see people on instagram too much". Good grief. What next, are you going to be ranting about avocado toast? At least you've finally progressed past this "move home with mummy and daddy" and "sure get mummy and daddy to give you the money" notion.

    When did you buy your house?

    I never said people should be getting money from their parents as a thing they should do to be able to get a house. I said people have often received money from their parents for deposits forever. That's a fact. So...you're making out like 20 years ago it was piss easy to get a mortgage when in fact people struggled, people moved back in with parents, people worked second jobs, people cut back on spending etc.

    There definitely is an expectation and sense of entitlement nowadays.


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    #3133
    jaja321
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    99problems1 wrote: »
    I never said people should be getting money from their parents as a thing they should do to be able to get a house. I said people have often received money from their parents for deposits forever. That's a fact. So...you're making out like 20 years ago it was piss easy to get a mortgage when in fact people struggled, people moved back in with parents, people worked second jobs, people cut back on spending etc.

    There definitely is an expectation and sense of entitlement nowadays.

    I think the truth is somewhere in between these two positions. I have just bought a house with my husband - after many years of looking, getting disappointed, fear the market was running away from us, pulling out of one purchase and eventually buying a house that we never thought we would - an old house that we've to now do up. But it will likely be our forever home, with room to expand if needed.

    Its been a really long arduous journey, at times put stresses on our relationship. Its meant A LOT of sacrifices in terms of spending, no holidays for a few years; even in Ireland; buying minimal clothes annually - only what was necessary etc, we've had a little help - but most of it we have done ourselves. We are also renting an apartment and paying for full time childcare. We are on very average wages and living in Dublin. We are what we call the squeezed middle.

    However I do think, we could have been wiser with money in earlier years - saved more when we had less responsibility/outgoings, maybe not had a wedding - which we also struggled to save for and didn't go into any debt for - but was it necessary? No. Would it have made saving for a house easier? Yes. Was it a really fun enjoyable day, that we enjoyed and was important for family? Yes.

    I've rented for many years and know all about the cost of rent, and this is the biggest barrier for young people saving to get a deposit together. But I similarly think small savings over many years, build up over time and embedding a culture of saving from a very early age is important and something I'm going to try instill in my daughter.

    Not sure what I'm really saying here, apart from rambling a bit - and maybe saying that the reality for many people is really really tough, having a dig out from parents is a huge help, but many people do it also through lots of sacrifice and a culture of saving whatever small amount is possible from a young age is a good idea!


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    #3134
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    jaja321 wrote: »
    I think the truth is somewhere in between these two positions. I have just bought a house with my husband - after many years of looking, getting disappointed, fear the market was running away from us, pulling out of one purchase and eventually buying a house that we never thought we would - an old house that we've to now do up. But it will likely be our forever home, with room to expand if needed.

    Its been a really long arduous journey, at times put stresses on our relationship. Its meant A LOT of sacrifices in terms of spending, no holidays for a few years; even in Ireland; buying minimal clothes annually - only what was necessary etc, we've had a little help - but most of it we have done ourselves. We are also renting an apartment and paying for full time childcare. We are on very average wages and living in Dublin. We are what we call the squeezed middle.

    However I do think, we could have been wiser with money in earlier years - saved more when we had less responsibility/outgoings, maybe not had a wedding - which we also struggled to save for and didn't go into any debt for - but was it necessary? No. Would it have made saving for a house easier? Yes. Was it a really fun enjoyable day, that we enjoyed and was important for family? Yes.

    I've rented for many years and know all about the cost of rent, and this is the biggest barrier for young people saving to get a deposit together. But I similarly think small savings over many years, build up over time and embedding a culture of saving from a very early age is important and something I'm going to try instill in my daughter.

    Not sure what I'm really saying here, apart from rambling a bit - and maybe saying that the reality for many people is really really tough, having a dig out from parents is a huge help, but many people do it also through lots of sacrifice and a culture of saving whatever small amount is possible from a young age is a good idea!

    Exactly.

    That's what I'm saying. People should be saving all the time. I'm saving now and I have no immediate plans to buy a house.

    I can tell you this much, if I wasn't saving, I would be able to live the life of reilly. I'd be on multiple trips abroad, over to Thailand, America, I'd have a 2016/17 car.

    People don't think of the future. I get that rents are high, I pay them myself.


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    #3135
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Exactly.

    That's what I'm saying. People should be saving all the time. I'm saving now and I have no immediate plans to buy a house.

    I can tell you this much, if I wasn't saving, I would be able to live the life of reilly. I'd be on multiple trips abroad, over to Thailand, America, I'd have a 2016/17 car.

    People don't think of the future. I get that rents are high, I pay them myself.

    Yes but I think where you are going wrong is assuming that your situation is the same as everyone else. Because you have it easy doesn't mean others do.

    Pretty much everyone saves all the time. While there is a section of society who unfortunately earn so little that they virtually live month-to-month, for the majority of people they are putting away some money every month. But there is a difference between saving in general, and saving for a house deposit. For one thing, the sums required are usually very large, and there is usually a need to get to the target within a reasonable time frame. Then you need to go beyond saving the deposit, because you're going to need thousands on top of it for the other costs. Most people will never save such a large sum of money ever again in their life, they just won't be able to.

    I saved my deposit, but I know that I was very fortunate to be in a position to do so without a great deal of difficulty. I am not going to sit here and say it's easy, and all it takes is a few simple sacrifices. Or talking about entitlement, that's just oversimplifying things. People can have kids, debts etc that all affect ability to save.

    Even if someone is as fortunate to be able to save a grand a month, to save 40 grand would take nearly 3 1/2 years. That's a long time. In that time, prices can increase, rents can increase, and it can feel like people are forever chasing a moving target that they are struggling to catch up to.

    Saving for a deposit is very difficult for many people. It's not, as you put it, "easy as fcuk".


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    #3136
    Bluefoam
    Registered Users Posts: 7,713 ✭✭✭Bluefoam


    Interest was 18% for a portion of the 80s, plus inflation was going through the roof... Most people also struggled to buy then... My parents couldn't get enough money together to afford the end house which was £250 more...
    SozBbz wrote: »
    Bigmac1euro wrote: »
    I've done my maths 100 times over so i know how it works I've already let the fact sink in that I wont be able to buy the same house as my parents who paid 24k in Dublin in 1988 and barely needed a deposit so believe me I know how difficult it is. The fact is moaning isn't going to make things easier, if your not happy hit the road and go abroad, unfortunately this is Ireland now and its 2019. The government aren't going to magically change the extortionate house prices. If they do decide you can borrow more good luck to your house in Dalkey which is definitely going to be out of reach now. The best decision the central bank made was limiting the borrowing to 3.5x to protect us from ourselves.

    Interesting to point back to the late 80's. Yes people often cant get over how cheap houses seemingly were. But you absolutely needed a 10% deposit back then and at times during the late 80s and early 90s, interest rates were up as high as 15%.

    I've spoken to my parents about that time and they told me that even though looking back, the buy price on their house seemed cheap, paying it back did not feel cheap and the high rates were making everyone very nervous.


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    #3137
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    awec wrote: »
    Yes but I think where you are going wrong is assuming that your situation is the same as everyone else. Because you have it easy doesn't mean others do.

    Pretty much everyone saves all the time. While there is a section of society who unfortunately earn so little that they virtually live month-to-month, for the majority of people they are putting away some money every month. But there is a difference between saving in general, and saving for a house deposit. For one thing, the sums required are usually very large, and there is usually a need to get to the target within a reasonable time frame. Then you need to go beyond saving the deposit, because you're going to need thousands on top of it for the other costs. Most people will never save such a large sum of money ever again in their life, they just won't be able to.

    I saved my deposit, but I know that I was very fortunate to be in a position to do so without a great deal of difficulty. I am not going to sit here and say it's easy, and all it takes is a few simple sacrifices. Or talking about entitlement, that's just oversimplifying things. People can have kids, debts etc that all affect ability to save.

    Even if someone is as fortunate to be able to save a grand a month, to save 40 grand would take nearly 3 1/2 years. That's a long time. In that time, prices can increase, rents can increase, and it can feel like people are forever chasing a moving target that they are struggling to catch up to.

    Saving for a deposit is very difficult for many people. It's not, as you put it, "easy as fcuk".

    What do you mean? I don't have it easy. I'm renting in Dublin house sharing with bums. You think I want to do that?

    I'd really love to see peoples bank accounts and seeing where they spend their money.

    And so what if 3 years is a long time, if you wanted the ability to just decide next month you want to buy a house, you should have started saving years ago.

    I'm not saying it's possible for everyone. Everyone makes their own choices at the end of the day and has to live and die by them. A decision that turns out makes it really difficult for you to save for a house, that's tough but that's a decision you made. I don't see why they should get help to buy, thus driving prices up for everyone else.


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    #3138
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    99problems1 wrote: »
    What do you mean? I don't have it easy. I'm renting in Dublin house sharing with bums. You think I want to do that?

    I'd really love to see peoples bank accounts and seeing where they spend their money.

    And so what if 3 years is a long time, if you wanted the ability to just decide next month you want to buy a house, you should have started saving years ago.

    I'm not saying it's possible for everyone. Everyone makes their own choices at the end of the day and has to live and die by them. A decision that turns out makes it really difficult for you to save for a house, that's tough but that's a decision you made. I don't see why they should get help to buy, thus driving prices up for everyone else.

    You literally said saving was "easy as fcuk".

    I think you're naive to be honest. It seems your view is that anyone who struggles to save for a deposit has obviously made a mistake somewhere in their life, because there's no way it should be that difficult. It's a gross over-simplification, detached from the real world.


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    #3139
    99problems1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 391 ✭✭99problems1


    awec wrote: »
    You literally said saving was "easy as fcuk".

    I think you're naive to be honest. It seems your view is that anyone who struggles to save for a deposit has obviously made a mistake somewhere in their life, because there's no way it should be that difficult. It's a gross over-simplification, detached from the real world.

    Yes. Saving is easy.

    Maybe not if you're on 23k. But anyone on 35k+ should be saving plenty. And yes I'll say it again, it's easy. You just have to make decisions. Life is all about decisions. Can't say yes to everything!


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    #3140
    0gac3yjefb5sv7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭0gac3yjefb5sv7


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Yes. Saving is easy.

    Maybe not if you're on 23k. But anyone on 35k+ should be saving plenty. And yes I'll say it again, it's easy. You just have to make decisions. Life is all about decisions. Can't say yes to everything!

    Why do several posters think there is something wrong with having an expectation to (reasonably) close to work, have a bit of a life in terms of going out to cinema and for a meal once a week, while having a 2/3 small city breaks to see the world.

    Everyone works for 40 years and gets only 20-25 leave. It's not unreasonable to expect people to want a decent lifestyle in return for that.

    Yes we can't have everything given to us but if you are willing to work hard for 40 years, I think asking for a roof over your head and non extravagant lifestyle isn't unreasonable at all.


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    #3141
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,696 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Pheonix10 wrote: »
    Yes we can't have everything given to us but if you are willing to work hard for 40 years, I think asking for a roof over your head and non extravagant lifestyle isn't unreasonable at all.

    it isnt unreasonable, you just need to make sure you make enough money to fund it.


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    #3142
    alwald
    Registered Users Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭alwald


    99problems1 wrote: »
    Yes. Saving is easy.

    Maybe not if you're on 23k. But anyone on 35k+ should be saving plenty. And yes I'll say it again, it's easy. You just have to make decisions. Life is all about decisions. Can't say yes to everything!

    I agree that saving is easy once you have the willingness to do so. My observation is that the majority of those in their 20s and early to mid 30s in Ireland have had a better childhood than their parents in terms of toys, gifts, a roof over their head, items and gadgets overall so the notion of saving is in-existent in their mind.

    Other people of the same age in other parts of the world have had a tougher upbringing and thus they know the value of saving and of having a cushion to rely on as their life was never easy.

    I will go one step further by saying that the social housing in Ireland, and indeed in other EU countries, are in-existent in other parts of the world so if you don't save to buy or rent you will find yourself in the street with no one to help.


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    #3143
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,151 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Pheonix10 wrote: »
    Why do several posters think there is something wrong with having an expectation to (reasonably) close to work, have a bit of a life in terms of going out to cinema and for a meal once a week, while having a 2/3 small city breaks to see the world.
    Has that lifestyle ever been sustainable for any but the highest of earners outside of the world of TV sitcoms?

    It certainly wasn't the norm in my parents day. They bought their first home together after getting married in 1978: after the honeymoon they didn't manage a holiday again until 1986, celebrated their first wedding anniversary by pushing the boat out for a take-away, drove an old banger etc. And they were both in what would have been considered very good jobs at the time (Bank Officials).

    Neither of my sets of grandparents ever owned their own home and if any of them ever left the country, I've never heard of it. "Seeing a bit of the world" was the preserve of the upper classes doing their grand tours and young men being shipped off to be slaughtered in war. The whole concept of it being something everyone should be able to do is an extremely new one in the history of humanity.

    Of course there's nothing wrong with living a nice lifestyle if you can afford it. But thinking that everyone can afford to live like that is fallacious. It's basing views on how modern people should be living their lives by comparing them to the standards of a tiny wealthy nobility (who, to be fair, tend to be the most recorded in the history books and storied in the arts). The average Brit wasn't living the life of The Durrells or off exploring the British Raj in the 1920s. They were working 6 days a week in dangerous factories or out in the fields.


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    #3144
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Every single generation has a higher standard of living than the previous. That's just how the world works. It doesn't really make sense to compare across generations like this, in terms of comparing what people are buying because it's always going to be skewed. This "back in the day" stuff is of no real relevance IMO.

    Sun holidays in Europe are completely normal now, 50 years ago a holiday abroad was extremely extravagant. It's not that everyone today is rich, or a crazy spender, or feels more entitled than previous generations. Things become more accessible to the masses thanks to technological advancements.

    Our grandkids could be going on holiday to the moon like.


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    #3145
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,696 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    awec wrote: »
    Every single generation has a higher standard of living than the previous. That's just how the world works. It doesn't really make sense to compare things like this. This "back in the day" stuff is of no real relevance IMO.

    Sun holidays in Europe are completely normal now, 50 years ago a holiday abroad was extremely extravagant. It's not that everyone today is rich, or a crazy spender, or feels more entitled than previous generations. Things become more accessible to the masses thanks to technological advancements.

    yes despite the better std of living everyone has, everyone wants it all, a roof over their head close to work and 3 holidays a year.

    of course people feel more entitled.


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    #3146
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cyrus wrote: »
    yes despite the better std of living everyone has, everyone wants it all, a roof over their head close to work and 3 holidays a years.

    of course people feel more entitled.

    More entitled than what? Who is "people"?

    Or are you saying that the expectations of a decent standard of living are higher now than in the past? If so, I'd agree, but that's obvious and is always the case.

    This "entitled" word seems thrown around to imply that todays young adults are a bunch of spoilt, lazy bollockses. It's a lazy cliche.


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    #3147
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,696 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    awec wrote: »
    More entitled than what?

    than previous generations, it was a direct response to you.


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    #3148
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,386 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Cyrus wrote: »
    than previous generations, it was a direct response to you.

    Yea this is a lazy cliche.

    I am sure many decades ago there were old people saying the same nonsense. "Ah this current generation, they're so entitled, wanting their kids to be educated. Back in my day you were sent down the coal mine as soon as ye were able to pay your way!".


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    #3149
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,446 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Saving a deposit clearly isnt easy or everyone would do it.
    The ratios of takehome pay vs property prices is very different now to the 80's
    My parents bought their first house in the early 80s for about £20k, which was the equivalent of one of their yearly salaries at the time. It was a 4 bed semi with a large garden facing a green area, in Newbridge (kildare)

    Average wage these days is around €38-€45k (depending on methodology), can't see many houses in suburbia going for that!


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    #3150
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,696 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    awec wrote: »
    Yea this is a lazy cliche.

    I am sure many decades ago there were old people saying the same nonsense. "Ah this current generation, they're so entitled, wanting their kids to be educated. Back in my day you were sent down the coal mine as soon as ye were able to pay your way!".

    for the record im in my 30s so my perspective isnt that of someone who bought their house in the 80s.

    people do want everything nowadays and because society in general is as well off as it has ever been people want more and more.

    the problem with everyone wanting the same thing is that they can't all afford it.


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    #3151
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,696 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Saving a deposit clearly isnt easy or everyone would do it.
    The ratios of takehome pay vs property prices is very different now to the 80's
    My parents bought their first house in the early 80s for about £20k, which was the equivalent of one of their yearly salaries at the time. It was a 4 bed semi with a large garden facing a green area, in Newbridge (kildare)

    Average wage these days is around €38-€45k (depending on methodology), can't see many houses in suburbia going for that!

    society has changed, in the 80s the majority of wives didnt work and werent university educated. they are now, so guess what, a decent house in a decent suburb costs what two salaries can borrow not one.


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