Property Market 2019

99problems1

awec wrote: »

Yes. This is a common soundbite on here, but these people are not above needing help. These are the people paying crazy rents.

Living at home with the parents is the other lazy soundbite. Firstly, aside from the fact that no grown adult should have to live with mummy and daddy to get by in life, this is not an option for most people.

I'm sorry but getting a loan for 400k is not "getting by". There HAS to be some sacrifice.

Someone in their 30's on 50k should have enough saved for a deposit themselves. what the hell were they doing in the last 10 years? There's a sense of entitlement around these days. The amount of single people on here who complain about not being able to afford 4 bed semi d's. Like come on...or expecting to get a mortgage on a minimum wage salary...

99problems1

People have ALWAYS made sacrifices to save for houses. People moved back home to save during the good times. People got gifts of money towards deposits from parents during the good times.

This expectation that you should be able to save a 10% deposit in a few months is completely head in the clouds stuff.

Put it this way, if you're telling me that rents are SOOOOO high people can't save, then surely all they'd have to do is move back home for 1 year and they'd have their deposit!

Let's say someone paying 2k rent (high rent right?). Move home, after a year you'd have 20k (4k to the parents - bills would be paid for like renting so no change there) after a year.

That's most of your deposit right there!

If the rent is NOT that high, then there's no excuse for not being able to save over the course of a few years.

I just can't believe how awful people are at managing their money. Yet if you pointed out peoples spending habits on here you'd be met with "god forbid someone has a bit of enjoyment in their lives!!".

awec

"All they have to do is move home for a year".

It's almost as if you're not reading a single thing people are telling you. Moving home is just not an option for most people. It is an impossibility.

Your posts just sound like someone who hasn't a notion, completely detached from reality. Going on about entitlement, all we're missing now is something about snowflakes or millenials and we'll be close to a full buzzword bingo.

Talking about parents gifting the money. Again, just totally detached from reality, as if most people's parents have tens of thousands of euro sitting around to hand over. And those that do, it seems grossly unfair to expect parents to fund a deposit. You want people to move home, to live with mummy and daddy, and then have mummy and daddy top up the deposit too, while simultaneously going on about entitlement? Ha!

You're talking about 400k as if the people buying houses for 400k are rich. Sure if you can buy a house at that price then money obviously isn't an issue. Again, bollocks! Do you realise what 400k will buy you these days? These people aren't buying mansions. You certainly aren't getting a 4 bed semi-d for it anywhere other than the sticks. These are completely normal people, working 40 hours a week, paying stupid rents while losing half their salary in tax and getting absolutely fcuk all for it.

awec

handlemaster wrote: »

I think people call this planning for the future. No reason you cant have a good time but be smart about it. You cant have everthing you want in life.

People in their 30s now had the privilege of being in their 20s during the worst recession in modern history, and it was no fault of theirs.

Are people really questioning why they don't all have a load of savings?

Assetbacked

It's absolutely a seller's market right now, not sure why anyone thinking of selling would hold off. We are at peak crisis, maybe starting to turn the corner. Prices can only go down due to less demand from people just not having the money but also from supply finally starting to flow.

awec

Assetbacked wrote: »

It's absolutely a seller's market right now, not sure why anyone thinking of selling would hold off. We are at peak crisis, maybe starting to turn the corner. Prices can only go down due to less demand from people just not having the money but also from supply finally starting to flow.

Because almost every seller is also a buyer.

Assetbacked

awec wrote: »

People in their 30s now had the privilege of being in their 20s during the worst recession in modern history, and it was no fault of theirs.

Are people really questioning why they don't all have a load of savings?

Recently packed in the rental rat race myself, moving home for a year to get a decent wedge saved since I am extremely lucky to be able to. Rent for me more than doubled the last few years while my after tax salary did not. Not sure FG can be forgiven for making such horrendous lies to the electorate about abolishing USC and helping workers; they're down there with FF in my book for ruining the country.

Assetbacked

awec wrote: »

Because almost every seller is also a buyer.

Yeah, so why not sell when there are plenty of buyers now and prices are largely beyond affordability?

awec

Assetbacked wrote: »

Yeah, so why not sell when there are plenty of buyers now and prices are largely beyond affordability?

When most people sell their house they have to buy another one.

While they might achieve a very high price for the house they're selling, they will also be paying a very high price for the house they've to buy.

Bigmac1euro

awec wrote: »

People in their 30s now had the privilege of being in their 20s during the worst recession in modern history, and it was no fault of theirs.

Are people really questioning why they don't all have a load of savings?

The recession ended a long time ago at this stage. While I do agree with a lot of what your saying I disagree with people not possibly having a few quid put away or the funds to do so. Employment is good at the moment and has been for the last 5 years there’s no reason why a couple between them can’t have a few quid put away UNLESS there’s kids involved and if that’s the case maybe bad family planning, I have mates in that situation and I don’t envy them. I have about half my deposit saved and I’ve only saved for the last 13 months, I now wonder what I was doing with the rest of my money. I have plenty of friends who are paying a lot less rent than I am, staying with aunts or uncles or house sharing. Their rent is less than mine and some are even on better salaries etc. Not a pot to piss in except for Thursday through to Sunday night. They have also gone to every gig and holiday possible. I don’t feel sorry for them when they keep complaining about paying rent. Because it’s obvious they don’t want to quieten down yet again that’s their choice but it doesn’t give them a right to complain about having no money coz the government etc etc.

Dolbhad

For work, I have had to attend CPD’s which have included the a lot of property market/rental market analysis with the likes to Ronan Lyons etc. Which have made arguments for the deposit but increasing the salary requirements. They have looked at both the market to buy and rental market and it seems to be a way to balance both to a “normal” level. I do think both markets need to be looked at because they do affect each other. I would have been in favour of both rules but they have made great arguments for the borrowing to slightly increase to help those in the rental trap.

Also I entered into workforce at the worse time in the recession. I have spent years working unpaid or low wages to get training contracts etc. to only be in a stage to save for a deposit for a house at in my late 20’s to hopefully purchase a house in early 30’s. It has put me back years compared to those now coming into workforce and may be in a position to buy by late 20’s. But that’s why there is a demand as you have two generations looking for starter homes.

Trust me I have made the sacrifices to get that deposit. It was ten years before I went on holidays again. Have the same car I bought as a student at 18. A lot of us didn’t walk into high paying jobs once economy picked up. If your on a training contract for 3 years to qualify for your professional body, your not on good wages at all in that period and incurring additional costs for exams etc. I stayed in Ireland, I paid taxes and contributed. I do take offence to anybody saying we had it easy.

Sheeps

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

The recession ended a long time ago at this stage. While I do agree with a lot of what your saying I disagree with people not possibly having a few quid put away or the funds to do so. Employment is good at the moment and has been for the last 5 years there’s no reason why a couple between them can’t have a few quid put away UNLESS there’s kids involved and if that’s the case maybe bad family planning, I have mates in that situation and I don’t envy them. I have about half my deposit saved and I’ve only saved for the last 13 months, I now wonder what I was doing with the rest of my money. I have plenty of friends who are paying a lot less rent than I am, staying with aunts or uncles or house sharing. Their rent is less than mine and some are even on better salaries etc. Not a pot to piss in except for Thursday through to Sunday night. They have also gone to every gig and holiday possible. I don’t feel sorry for them when they keep complaining about paying rent. Because it’s obvious they don’t want to quieten down yet again that’s their choice but it doesn’t give them a right to complain about having no money coz the government etc etc.

Thanks for the anecdotal update about your mates. The average household income in ireland is €45,256 which means they can only borrow €158,396. Let that sink in. The recovery has meant nothing to a great deal of people due to the fact that the cost of living has increased more than earnings and the bottom of the tax net.

SozBbz

Sheeps wrote: »

Thanks for the anecdotal update about your mates. The average household income in ireland is €45,256 which means they can only borrow €158,396. Let that sink in. The recovery has meant nothing to a great deal of people due to the fact that the cost of living has increased more than earnings and the bottom of the tax net.

So add a deposit to that and theres plenty available around the country, especially if you consider more property than the 3/4 bed semi that everyone seems to chase. You'll be going nowhere in South Dublin obviously.

That statistic includes people on all sorts of welfare payments, pensions, disability allowance etc... those people are likely not buying a house anytime soon.

Average earnings in Dublin and nationally by region would be more interesting/relevant.

SozBbz

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

The recession ended a long time ago at this stage. While I do agree with a lot of what your saying I disagree with people not possibly having a few quid put away or the funds to do so. Employment is good at the moment and has been for the last 5 years there’s no reason why a couple between them can’t have a few quid put away UNLESS there’s kids involved and if that’s the case maybe bad family planning, I have mates in that situation and I don’t envy them. I have about half my deposit saved and I’ve only saved for the last 13 months, I now wonder what I was doing with the rest of my money. I have plenty of friends who are paying a lot less rent than I am, staying with aunts or uncles or house sharing. Their rent is less than mine and some are even on better salaries etc. Not a pot to piss in except for Thursday through to Sunday night. They have also gone to every gig and holiday possible. I don’t feel sorry for them when they keep complaining about paying rent. Because it’s obvious they don’t want to quieten down yet again that’s their choice but it doesn’t give them a right to complain about having no money coz the government etc etc.

Don't mind the other posters, for what its worth what you've described amoungst your friends rings true to me too.

Also I finished college with a masters in Marketing in late 2008... talk about useless. I did all the unpaid internships, retail work etc just be working and to try to get to something better. Took a while but eventually I did and as the economy improved, I've been able to ramp thing up in the last few years.

I've friends who I know earn plenty and are just not good with money. They also moan about saving being hard and not having a deposit. I on the other hand will always shop around and try to get the best deal. Not to say I don't spend, but I'm always conscious of my spending and just won't flitter away cash unless I've given it some thought.

Now I eat out, go on a few holidays per year, drive a new car etc but I've a good eye on my core costs and know what leeway I have. I do wonder where some peoples money goes.

I agree that our generation was held back by a few years by the recession but at the same time, earning potential has been good for a few years and its absolutely possible to save for a lot of people if they really evaluated their outgoings.

Sheeps

SozBbz wrote: »

So add a deposit to that and theres plenty available around the country, especially if you consider more property than the 3/4 bed semi that everyone seems to chase. You'll be going nowhere in South Dublin obviously.

That statistic includes people on all sorts of welfare payments, pensions, disability allowance etc... those people are likely not buying a house anytime soon.

Average earnings in Dublin and nationally by region would be more interesting/relevant.

Average household income in South Dublin is €52,759. That's a mortgage of €184,656.

SozBbz

Sheeps wrote: »

Average household income in South Dublin is €52,759. That's a mortgage of €184,656.

I said average earnings, not household income,

Household income includes all sorts of set ups as I explained in my previous post that would not be perspective home buyers.

Earnings is a per person statistic and more relevant.

Sheeps

SozBbz wrote: »

I said average earnings, not household income,

Household income includes all sorts of set ups as I explained in my previous post that would not be perspective home buyers.

Earnings is a per person statistic and more relevant.

Fine. Let's take only the working population. The average salary for full time employment in 2018 was €47,596.

SozBbz

Sheeps wrote: »

Fine. Let's take only the working population. The average salary for full time employment in 2018 was €47,596.

Still not perfect - statistics never are - but a single person could get a loan of €166 + saving 10% for deposit.

There are apartments available in town around the D8 area and small houses in Crumlin/Drimnagh etc.

With a 2 income household obviously theres even more options.

Its not to say its easy and you'd certainly not waltz into a house in Ballsbridge, but its not impossible.

Averages across the entire population will still include people in their first jobs on entry level salaries as well as people who are just not in the market for a miriad reasons.

pearcider

SozBbz wrote: »

Still not perfect - statistics never are - but a single person could get a loan of €166 + saving 10% for deposit.

There are apartments available in town around the D8 area and small houses in Crumlin/Drimnagh etc.

With a 2 income household obviously theres even more options.

Its not to say its easy and you'd certainly not waltz into a house in Ballsbridge, but its not impossible.

Averages across the entire population will still include people in their first jobs on entry level salaries as well as people who are just not in the market for a miriad reasons.

It’s hilarious to see the bulls tie themselves in knots to justify the property bubble we find ourselves in. Again. Any objective observer can see that property is overvalued and propped up by cheap credit - which could be switched off overnight. As far as I can see the average 2 income household can buy an ancient kip in a formerly bad area that needs about 100 grand of work on it or you can buy a new build eco box with management fees, postage stamp sized gardens and silly commutes. Choose your poison.

Reminds me of 2006 to be honest. Plus ca change

Cyrus

You’ll be there to pick up a 4 bed in dalkey when it all goes wrong I’m sure !

So what should 2 people on average incomes be able to buy in your opinion?

Bluefoam

pearcider wrote: »

SozBbz wrote: »

Still not perfect - statistics never are - but a single person could get a loan of €166 + saving 10% for deposit.

There are apartments available in town around the D8 area and small houses in Crumlin/Drimnagh etc.

With a 2 income household obviously theres even more options.

Its not to say its easy and you'd certainly not waltz into a house in Ballsbridge, but its not impossible.

Averages across the entire population will still include people in their first jobs on entry level salaries as well as people who are just not in the market for a miriad reasons.

It’s hilarious to see the bulls tie themselves in knots to justify the property bubble we find ourselves in. Again. Any objective observer can see that property is overvalued and propped up by cheap credit - which could be switched off overnight. As far as I can see the average 2 income household can buy an ancient kip in a formerly bad area that needs about 100 grand of work on it or you can buy a new build eco box with management fees, postage stamp sized gardens and silly commutes. Choose your poison.

Reminds me of 2006 to be honest. Plus ca change

I see... And where would you purchase? What is available to you? Or are you just gonna wait it out for the big crash and the bumper prices?

Bigmac1euro

Sheeps wrote: »

Thanks for the anecdotal update about your mates. The average household income in ireland is €45,256 which means they can only borrow €158,396. Let that sink in. The recovery has meant nothing to a great deal of people due to the fact that the cost of living has increased more than earnings and the bottom of the tax net.

I'm just giving my point of view and its not just my friends, its people I went to school with as well, my own brother, his mates, her sister and some of her friends. The average household income in Ireland means nothing, this is factoring in couples which have already bought and one has left their job to look after kids, people that live alone in their 70's and EVERYONE outside the bubble that is Dublin, those figures are way off so they don't apply and particularly to Dublin. I've done my maths 100 times over so i know how it works I've already let the fact sink in that I wont be able to buy the same house as my parents who paid 24k in Dublin in 1988 and barely needed a deposit so believe me I know how difficult it is. The fact is moaning isn't going to make things easier, if your not happy hit the road and go abroad, unfortunately this is Ireland now and its 2019. The government aren't going to magically change the extortionate house prices. If they do decide you can borrow more good luck to your house in Dalkey which is definitely going to be out of reach now. The best decision the central bank made was limiting the borrowing to 3.5x to protect us from ourselves.

The_Conductor

zuhuraswa wrote: »

The Netherlands. My sister just bought a house there last year. All she had to do was save the monthly mortgage repayment amount for six months consistently without touching the savings. But no initial lump sum or any amount of initial deposit required.

Standard in the Netherlands - for an EU citizen other than a Dutch national:

• Proof of fulltime employment
• Proof of residence in the Netherlands for at least 5 years
• 10% deposit
• Mortgage to be 90% or less than the open market selling value of the property

Where the mortgage amount is less than 90% of the value of the property lenders have delegated sanction to ignore the 5 year residence rule. They are not supposed to ignore the 10% deposit requirement for EU citizens who are non-nationals.

elefant

The_Conductor wrote: »

Standard in the Netherlands - for an EU citizen other than a Dutch national:

• Proof of fulltime employment
• Proof of residence in the Netherlands for at least 5 years
• 10% deposit
• Mortgage to be 90% or less than the open market selling value of the property

Where the mortgage amount is less than 90% of the value of the property lenders have delegated sanction to ignore the 5 year residence rule. They are not supposed to ignore the 10% deposit requirement for EU citizens who are non-nationals.

I have never heard these conditions applied to anybody I know in the Netherlands.

Edit: Correction- apart from proof of employment.

SozBbz

pearcider wrote: »

It’s hilarious to see the bulls tie themselves in knots to justify the property bubble we find ourselves in. Again. Any objective observer can see that property is overvalued and propped up by cheap credit - which could be switched off overnight. As far as I can see the average 2 income household can buy an ancient kip in a formerly bad area that needs about 100 grand of work on it or you can buy a new build eco box with management fees, postage stamp sized gardens and silly commutes. Choose your poison.

Reminds me of 2006 to be honest. Plus ca change

Well I find it hilarious that people think theres "bargains coming" because the worst recession and property crash that was the perfect storm is going to happen again in a few years.

Owning a home is expensive and requires sacrifice. Not everyone is going to get the their barbie dream home. Compromise is inevitable for most prospective home buyers.

If you think prices are going to fall in half again so you can pick up a cheap house, you're in for a long wait.

Lets remind ourselves that last time house prices were on the floor, hardly anyone was selling, noone was building, mortgages were much harder to come by and chances are a good few of your friends (or maybe even you) were unemployed.

Sure, we all know of someone who got a great deal back in 2012 or whatever, but transaction volumes were on the floor. Back then it was largely executor sales and bank sales.

I'm much happier now, the general climate is good, the "sure arent you lucky to have a job" narrative is gone, the overall sense of gloom has lifted.

If people want to go back to 2008-2013 then they're wearing massively rose tinted glasses.

SozBbz

Bigmac1euro wrote: »

I've done my maths 100 times over so i know how it works I've already let the fact sink in that I wont be able to buy the same house as my parents who paid 24k in Dublin in 1988 and barely needed a deposit so believe me I know how difficult it is. The fact is moaning isn't going to make things easier, if your not happy hit the road and go abroad, unfortunately this is Ireland now and its 2019. The government aren't going to magically change the extortionate house prices. If they do decide you can borrow more good luck to your house in Dalkey which is definitely going to be out of reach now. The best decision the central bank made was limiting the borrowing to 3.5x to protect us from ourselves.

Interesting to point back to the late 80's. Yes people often cant get over how cheap houses seemingly were. But you absolutely needed a 10% deposit back then and at times during the late 80s and early 90s, interest rates were up as high as 15%.

I've spoken to my parents about that time and they told me that even though looking back, the buy price on their house seemed cheap, paying it back did not feel cheap and the high rates were making everyone very nervous.

99problems1

awec wrote: »

"All they have to do is move home for a year".

It's almost as if you're not reading a single thing people are telling you. Moving home is just not an option for most people. It is an impossibility.

Your posts just sound like someone who hasn't a notion, completely detached from reality. Going on about entitlement, all we're missing now is something about snowflakes or millenials and we'll be close to a full buzzword bingo.

Talking about parents gifting the money. Again, just totally detached from reality, as if most people's parents have tens of thousands of euro sitting around to hand over. And those that do, it seems grossly unfair to expect parents to fund a deposit. You want people to move home, to live with mummy and daddy, and then have mummy and daddy top up the deposit too, while simultaneously going on about entitlement? Ha!

You're talking about 400k as if the people buying houses for 400k are rich. Sure if you can buy a house at that price then money obviously isn't an issue. Again, bollocks! Do you realise what 400k will buy you these days? These people aren't buying mansions. You certainly aren't getting a 4 bed semi-d for it anywhere other than the sticks. These are completely normal people, working 40 hours a week, paying stupid rents while losing half their salary in tax and getting absolutely fcuk all for it.

Make sacrifices. It's not that hard.

You can't have everything in life. You know it's funny that if you go around a new estate and look at the cars, you'll notice how many 171, 161 SUVs there are. You'd think if they were so hard up they'd be putting that 20+k to a deposit on the house?

It's easy as fcuk to save. If you're single on 35k+ or a couple on 70k+ you should be saving 10k+ (single) or 20k+ (couple) a year for a deposit.

Someone on 35k takes home 2400 a month. Firstly, if he's single and wants to save for a deposit he needs to house share. Sorry, but expecting everything in life is head in the clouds stuff. You can't have it all.

So, move into a house share.

Ok...house share, can get somewhere for 650 a month which would be nice.

That's 1800 a month left to play with.

800 into savings. That's 250 a week you can play with. Food can be done for 10 euro a day. That's 170 a week for transport, daily costs, bills etc.

Very achievable and that's for 35k.

I think people are on instagram too much seeing wans off abroad 3 or 4 times a year and thinking that they should have a right to do that, own a home, own a nice car, own a nice phone etc.

zuhuraswa

elefant wrote: »

I have never heard these conditions applied to anybody I know in the Netherlands.

Edit: Correction- apart from proof of employment.

I don't know what The Conductor is on about, however as I said before, I can 100% confirm that my sister bought a house in the Netherlands last year without having to have saved a deposit. She's not an EU citizen BTW.

She had to proof she was in full time employment though and saved for the 6 months as per my previous post

arctictree

Well it costs over 300K at the moment to build a decent 4 bed home. Prices generally wont go below the build cost unless there is a major recession.

airportgirl83

elefant wrote: »

The_Conductor wrote: »

Standard in the Netherlands - for an EU citizen other than a Dutch national:

• Proof of fulltime employment
• Proof of residence in the Netherlands for at least 5 years
• 10% deposit
• Mortgage to be 90% or less than the open market selling value of the property

Where the mortgage amount is less than 90% of the value of the property lenders have delegated sanction to ignore the 5 year residence rule. They are not supposed to ignore the 10% deposit requirement for EU citizens who are non-nationals.

I have never heard these conditions applied to anybody I know in the Netherlands.

Edit: Correction- apart from proof of employment.

It is not necessarily easier to buy properties in the Netherlands atm Prices are at all times high (even excluding Amsterdam). Rents are also high and like here people struggle to save.

However, you can borrow more than 3.5 times salary, they are building "up" and in some cities it's not allowed to buy a new house to rent.