Marriage House Ownership Trouble?!? (Mod note in first post)

Hoboo · 25-08-2019 12:21PM

Asking for half of the 10k from the air bnb when that's used to pay the mortgage is the key here.

What does she want that for? To hand back to you to pay the mortgage that she doesn't pay? Or handbags and shoes?

Sounds like a money hungry, em, lady.

Dial Hard · 25-08-2019 12:22PM

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I can only give you anecdotal evidence of two acquaintances, based on their own stated situations - not even engaged, never mind married. Relationship ended where they had been cohabiting in a house solely in the man's name. Both went to court when it went south. Judge made both orders @ around 80k, allegedly.

If those women had been contributing to the mortgage/bills during the relationship then they were entitled to a settlement. My own sister had to go to court in similar circumstances and won. This woman, however, has been living rent and bill free for the past three years. Why she thinks she's entitled to anything is completely beyond me.

Completely agree that the OP needs to get legal advice ASAP. And start flippin making her contribute!

Murt10 · 25-08-2019 12:27PM

Once you get married and live together in the house, then it becomes the family home and the Family Law Home Protection Act comes into force. Basically she owns 1/2 the house and there's nothing you can do about it.

She doesn't have to get you to sign anything over to her at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Home_Protection_Act_1976

PhoenixParker · 25-08-2019 01:00PM

There's no where near enough information oven by the OP to judge this situation or offer advice. As presented the information is extremely one sided.

OP pays the mortgage and bills, except mortgage amounts to €10k per year and is in fact paid for by an airbnb scheme achieved through their mutual sacrifice (they both move out) and his parents generosity. Depending on what he counts as "bills", how the other household expenses are handled, their relative earnings etc. she may be getting massively the short end of the stick. It kinda sounds like OPs actual spend on living expenses is only household bills (electricity, gas, broadband?) which maybe come to €3-5k a year.

You both seem to be jumping straight to the end of the discussion without working through the actual problem or setting long term goals first. If that's indicative of your overall communication in the relationship then you should not be getting married. As you've described it her requests do suggest red flags but your description of yourself also suggests red flags on your side.

Sit down, look at what comes in, what goes out, what your long term plans are, what lifestyle you want together . . . Stop thinking about mine and yours and start thing about "ours".

You probably need a relationship counsellor to help you work through this and to give you the skills to keep working through it for the rest of your life.

splinter65 · 25-08-2019 01:16PM

Forty Seven wrote: »

Till death do us part is also a bsis of marriage. Unfortunately this is no longer adhered to so measures must be taken.

Forget about “till death us do part”.
We’ve just voted to allow people to divorce and carve up the savings and assets very soon after entering the legally binding contract of marriage.
It’s now a very attractive option to a certain type of person to set out to inveigle they’re way into someone else’s life, get married to that person, leave shortly afterwards, and apply for a divorce shortly after that, and then walking away with a financial settlement out of all proportion to their contribution, especially if the leaver now has a child to maintain.
People need to be very careful if, when they meet a prospective spouse, they are in a much healthier financial position then the object of their desire.

Bicyclette · 25-08-2019 01:24PM

Two issues:

1. Have you been paying Income Tax on the Airbnb earnings? If you haven't, you will need to put money away to cover it. And if she takes half of that, she will be liable for gift tax on that too if she isn't the direct receiver of the money.

2. WHY is she so concerned about the money? I am married for well over 30 years. Hubby and I have informal arrangements when it comes to money but basically I'm not particularly interested in taking any of his earnings, nor he mine, provided we can jointly pay the bills and look after the children.

Someone I know was totally screwed by an ex. Both came into the relationship with their own properties, then bought another together. The ex offloaded their property and managed to dispose of it "somehow" and then when it came to the split (a very few years after the wedding) the ex demanded half of the assets, namely the family home and the remaining pre-partnership house. The person I know is still paying out money, even though they are now divorced longer than they were married and the ex has moved on and is financially very comfortable.

Be prudent. If you are asking questions here, you are just articulating your own worries. My advice would be to step back.

Diceicle · 25-08-2019 01:39PM

Heres Johnny wrote: »

The fact she has asked for half the income from house is worrying. I'm in somewhat the same boat thought wise as you, I have a house worth about 300k which I bought 10 years ago and currently have 130k equity in it. Girlfriend lives here now too but the thoughts of what would happen to me if we had kids and married then broke up haunts my mind. I'd be certainly the one moving out and renting. Your concerns are well founded but hopefully you have a long and happy marriage

Is it not the case, that in your scenario, your GF can claim a portion of your property without being married. Once she lives there as her main residence you are treated as a co-habiting couple. She would be entitled to some of that property regardless of marriage (??)

Lefty Bicek · 25-08-2019 01:43PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

If those women had been contributing to the mortgage/bills during the relationship then they were entitled to a settlement.

A few supermarket receipts, and that's about it.

'A settlement' is one way of putting it.

'Half the value of the house' is another.

:eek:

thomasdylan · 25-08-2019 01:50PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

There's no where near enough information oven by the OP to judge this situation or offer advice. As presented the information is extremely one sided.

OP pays the mortgage and bills, except mortgage amounts to €10k per year and is in fact paid for by an airbnb scheme achieved through their mutual sacrifice (they both move out) and his parents generosity. Depending on what he counts as "bills", how the other household expenses are handled, their relative earnings etc. she may be getting massively the short end of the stick. It kinda sounds like OPs actual spend on living expenses is only household bills (electricity, gas, broadband?) which maybe come to €3-5k a year.

You both seem to be jumping straight to the end of the discussion without working through the actual problem or setting long term goals first. If that's indicative of your overall communication in the relationship then you should not be getting married. As you've described it her requests do suggest red flags but your description of yourself also suggests red flags on your side.

Sit down, look at what comes in, what goes out, what your long term plans are, what lifestyle you want together . . . Stop thinking about mine and yours and start thing about "ours".

You probably need a relationship counsellor to help you work through this and to give you the skills to keep working through it for the rest of your life.

I can't see how she's massively getting the short end of the stick if she's not paying rent or bills for 9 months of the year. Could you explain this because I can't get my head around it?

LenWoods · 25-08-2019 01:55PM

If your in any sort of relationship with someone for six years or more then they are legally entitled to 50% of what you have anyway,
The mortgage can remain in your name shir why share debt?
It's the life insurance she should want a name on in the event you K.O
Not a share in the debt

I'm carrying the wife 18 year now,
She worked until 12 years ago which was around a year after signing up for a joint mortgage; then had three kids one after the other followed by postnatal depression and anxiety when it came to getting back to work and now will most likely never work again.

Her sister has had two partners in the past ten years;
First lad was coming in to inheritance and she used to tell us plans she had for her and Ben's money when he gets it,
Good lad dropped her as soon as he got it done right.

New lad now of three years, his parents are selling and giving him money 150k towards a house; shes now talking about what there going to do with his money when he gets it;
There out there they really are.

Should the second person have a say in your mortgage they could use that value to obtain a bigger loan or gamble it all away

Life insurance yes, mortgage agreements no
Why share debt ?

PhoenixParker · 25-08-2019 02:09PM

thomasdylan wrote: »

I can't see how she's massively getting the short end of the stick if she's not paying rent or bills for 9 months of the year. Could you explain this because I can't get my head around it?

I said “may be getting the short end of the stick”. She might not be, but it’s not clear what the real story is from the post, which is full of half truths and red flags to my eye.

“Bills” is extremely vague for a start. The OP says he pays mortgage and bills but then also says mortgage is paid for by them both moving out of the house. It makes me question how truthful he’s being overall since he’s not exactly paying the mortgage without a major sacrifice from her.

Now bills could mean all household expenses or it could mean gas/electricity/broadband. Depending on what OP actually means by “bills” his contribution to the household budget might be as low as €3k a year.

Who pays for cars, petrol, insurance, food shopping, holidays, entertainment, clothes . . . ? Her actual costs and contribution to the household may be far higher than his, he hasn’t said anything about her contribution. We don’t know from the vagueness of his description.

The OP bought the house before they met, it’s location may also be costing her time and money in a commute or limiting her job opportunities and income. He hasn’t said anything about how they’ve worked things out up to now.

Using myself as an example, granted we’re married and have a kid, but the way our finances have ended up working out is that technically the bills and mortgage come from my account and all other living expenses come from a joint account funded by my husband. Mortgage + broadband, electricity and life insurance is maybe a third of our monthly spend. It’d be more than laughable to suggest my husband doesn’t “contribute”. Reality is he earns multiples of my income and we could live comfortably if I wasn’t working.

Maybe OPs girlfriend is a gold digger, maybe she’s trying to rebalance skewed finances in a relationship or maybe it’s somewhere in between. Whichever it is, what I see is a massive failure to communicate and work through this issue from beginning to end which doesn’t bode well for marriage.

splinter65 · 25-08-2019 02:15PM

Diceicle wrote: »

Is it not the case, that in your scenario, your GF can claim a portion of your property without being married. Once she lives there as her main residence you are treated as a co-habiting couple. She would be entitled to some of that property regardless of marriage (??)

She can go to court and try but she would need a lot of very solid evidence of how she contributed financially to day to day living expenses at the very least.

thomasdylan · 25-08-2019 02:43PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I said “may be getting the short end of the stick”. She might not be, but it’s not clear what the real story is from the post, which is full of half truths and red flags to my eye.

“Bills” is extremely vague for a start. The OP says he pays mortgage and bills but then also says mortgage is paid for by them both moving out of the house. It makes me question how truthful he’s being overall since he’s not exactly paying the mortgage without a major sacrifice from her.

Now bills could mean all household expenses or it could mean gas/electricity/broadband. Depending on what OP actually means by “bills” his contribution to the household budget might be as low as €3k a year.

Who pays for cars, petrol, insurance, food shopping, holidays, entertainment, clothes . . . ? Her actual costs and contribution to the household may be far higher than his, he hasn’t said anything about her contribution. We don’t know from the vagueness of his description.

The OP bought the house before they met, it’s location may also be costing her time and money in a commute or limiting her job opportunities and income. He hasn’t said anything about how they’ve worked things out up to now.

Using myself as an example, granted we’re married and have a kid, but the way our finances have ended up working out is that technically the bills and mortgage come from my account and all other living expenses come from a joint account funded by my husband. Mortgage + broadband, electricity and life insurance is maybe a third of our monthly spend. It’d be more than laughable to suggest my husband doesn’t “contribute”. Reality is he earns multiples of my income and we could live comfortably if I wasn’t working.

Maybe OPs girlfriend is a gold digger, maybe she’s trying to rebalance skewed finances in a relationship or maybe it’s somewhere in between. Whichever it is, what I see is a massive failure to communicate and work through this issue from beginning to end which doesn’t bode well for marriage.

I can't see any half-truths here. He saved a deposit, bought a house and has the commitment of a mortgage. He's fortunate that the Airbnb covers the mortgage but if it didn't he'd be paying it. Wanting half the money from the airbnb when you've never contributed to the mortgage is trying to take advantage.

nuac · 25-08-2019 02:55PM

Bigus wrote: »

I have 2 completely different trains of thoughts on this .
1 . When you get married, half is automatically hers in the real world in Ireland.
On point 4 , I’m sure the bank would love an extra mark on the mortgage in case of default , but what gain is in that for either of you !
It’s good that you’re having these practical discussions now, and I can understand your concerns.

However it’s “only €130,000” , which over a lifetime is not a lot ,and been mercenary about it , how much would you invest in finding a life partner? and perhaps the fact you had a house was part of the subliminal attraction in the first place .
Personally I don’t see a problem with this if your punching above your weight in the attractiveness department, and it’s up to you if it’s worth the risk. Its only money, no point in having millions when you’re 80 but on your own, lonely.

If you reach 80 and have millions you will not be alone for long

robindch · 25-08-2019 04:51PM

mossyob wrote: »

[...] she wants to be made joint owner of the house [...]

There are a number of red flags in what you've written and - having seem a similar situation arise with one of my friends - I would advise you to speak with your lawyer about what your rights are now, what they are in the event of a marriage, and what they would be in the event of a divorce. And you can decide then whether these are things that you're comfortable with.

Specifically, I have seen a previously friendly couple descend into acrimony and fairly rank accusations, from one side at least, because the individual concerned felt that she was due ownership and control of 50% of everything, despite there having been no agreement, no marriage and worst of all, no discussion.

A prenup agreement might be reasonable in the circumstances, plus a frank discussion about who's put in what into the relationship - listed by rough date, and rough amount - so that some kind of pre-marriage balance can be established. That can be a difficult conversation to have, but it can be a useful one.

The alternative, and I've seen this too, is where some people, particularly in a family setting, simply refuse to discuss money without becoming angry, upset, entitled and occasionally belligerent or threatening. These are serious red flags and if difficult topics cannot be discussed fairly and openly with due consideration for the rights, responsibilities, frailties and interests of both sides, then frankly, I'd be seriously considering the future of the relationship.

robindch · 25-08-2019 05:03PM

LenWoods wrote: »

If your in any sort of relationship with someone for six years or more then they are legally entitled to 50% of what you have

That is not true. You seem to be thinking of the rules related to either divorce (a legal right to at least 33% of your spouse's assets) or the rules regarding Qualified Cohabitants which have changed quite a bit over the years - for example, these days, somebody coming out of a long-term relationship can apply to a court for support where it can be proven that they were financially dependent on the other person:

https://www.treoir.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Cohabitants.pdf
https://www.legalaidboard.ie/en/our-services/legal-aid-services/common-legal-problems/rights-of-cohabitants/rights-of-cohabitants.html

BarryD2 · 25-08-2019 09:10PM

All I can observe is that there's a fierce amount of cynicism about people and marriage in many of these replies. The tone of the OP is even and balanced - why assume the worst? If they're both in it for the long term it shouldn't be an issue. If they're not, then best not get married (or have children).

Lefty Bicek · 25-08-2019 09:24PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

All I can observe is that there's a fierce amount of cynicism about people and marriage in many of these replies. The tone of the OP is even and balanced - why assume the worst? If they're both in it for the long term it shouldn't be an issue. If they're not, then best not get married (or have children).

I think I see from where your foolish naivety comes.

Calltocall · 25-08-2019 10:43PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

All I can observe is that there's a fierce amount of cynicism about people and marriage in many of these replies. The tone of the OP is even and balanced - why assume the worst? If they're both in it for the long term it shouldn't be an issue. If they're not, then best not get married (or have children).

It’s just reality nowadays, so many separations and divorces no getting around it and being honest a lot could be avoided if red flags were heeded in early days before getting married, the fallout both financially and emotionally can be devastating yet it’s rarely spoken about but it happens all the time, a good dose of honesty will do the OP no harm. Marriage can be a great bond IF it’s with the right person.

shenanagans · 25-08-2019 11:28PM

Red flags everywhere. I'd suggest putting to her that you're thinking of selling to recoup your investment. See how see reacts.

Buy again together....jointly. If she can afford to buy with you and doesn't want to stump up the money (deposit) ...it's time you asked some hard questions.

The fact she wants half the income on your house, which you bought and paid bills on. You took all the risks of buying alone. You are entitled to the rewards. Her asking for half.....huge red flag. What is she thinking.

She shouldn't be focused on money. Whether the house is in your name or both what does it matter if ye are getting married. The income covers the mortgage....so why demand it from you? She should be happy that you have a house and an rental income to help pay for it's upkeep. It's very worrying that she's thinking this way. Be careful!

Darc19 · 25-08-2019 11:54PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

All I can observe is that there's a fierce amount of cynicism about people and marriage in many of these replies. The tone of the OP is even and balanced - why assume the worst?

Years of experience

Seen similar too many times in friends.

Never ends well.

Donald Trump · 26-08-2019 02:42AM

OP, what I'd do for now is get her to sign a tenant agreement for your current living situation.

pwurple · 26-08-2019 07:15AM

I have to question how this is being framed... And if you have discussed how your finances will work after marriage. People all do it differently... When we got married we both had our own houses, so kept a lot of that separate. Eventually children and childcare got so complicated we pooled everything.

Wanting half the rental income is a weird thing to say. Like others have said, it's taxable. She is just setting herself up for a tax bill. On the house, she would be making herself liable for the debt too and would reduce her ability to borrow. Also, for what exactly does she want this income? Has she her own income, does she work?

Asking if you will have joint accounts is different, more along the lines of opening a conversation about future financial admin, and I am wondering if that is what she actually asked for, and you are reframing that request.

tashiusclay · 26-08-2019 07:31AM

Bigus wrote: »

However it’s “only €130,000” , which over a lifetime is not a lot ,and been mercenary about it , how much would you invest in finding a life partner? and perhaps the fact you had a house was part of the subliminal attraction in the first place .
Personally I don’t see a problem with this if your punching above your weight in the attractiveness department, and it’s up to you if it’s worth the risk. Its only money, no point in having millions when you’re 80 but on your own, lonely.

This is terrible advice and wrong on so many levels, do not listen to a word of this.

Addle · 26-08-2019 07:51AM

Maybe she deserves to be compensated for having to move out of her home for a few months every year?
When you move out, do you still live together or do you each go to your own parents?
How will this work in the future?

26-08-2019 08:37AM

Your financial plan was to invest prudently and work hard hers is to take half your stuff, and leave you after a few years.

Tell her the wedding is off, you don't believe in all that nonsense and see if she still "loves" you. You do realise you have as much right to your desires as she does?

<snip - that had nothing to do with the thread, and is not based on anything the OP said>

Be warned if you live together for 5 years she has the same rights as if she is married.

<snip again>

Faith · 26-08-2019 09:39AM

Mod note: this will be my one and only warning on this thread. Keep your advice constructive. I have deleted several posts where the poster appeared to completely fabricate a representation of the woman in question and then went on a nonsensical (and, honestly, concerning) rant, based on nothing but their own imagination.

I will not tolerate any personal attacks against the OP’s partner. If you must comment on her, be polite and imagine that she herself was reading it.

Idioteque · 26-08-2019 10:31AM

I think the fact that you have paid all the bills and mortgage for 3 years have started you down a certain path if you've never openly had a conversation about the reasons for doing that.

Is there a severe difference in your earning vs hers or if not, why were you paying for a lot of things? - I think this has a huge bearing on where you are at now.

Do you have kids with your fiance? If not (and if you both are hoping to have some in the future), I can tell you that once kids come into it, money can become a big strain on things for some families so you should probably have an honest conversation about both your reasons for what you are expecting financially.

Is your finance talking about using money to improve things for both of you, plan for the future etc. or is it just a 'I should get half' into her own personal bank-account just because you're getting married?

Finally, I don't think there's any right answer here OP, every couple handles money differently, the key thing is finding a scenario you are both happy with and feel is fair...otherwise you'll just kick the proverbial can down the road.

mossyob · 26-08-2019 12:21PM

Thanks to everyone for there advice and help, its interesting that there is so much divide in the subject. To clear up some questions, yes she pays for €50 shopping each week and I take care of the everything else. I was lucky to buy at bottom of market and had €60k as deposit so hence small mortgage. When I bought first I stripped the house and gardens and it took €70/€80k to renovate and put back together, because it my first buy I totally misjudged the costs of doing this and had to max credit cards, use savings and get credit union loan. This is how I got into renting the house as I ran out of money to finish and I got paid in advance of my first summer rentals. The tarmac went in two days before first rental in 2017,thats how tight it was and because it was a nice finish and great location its €1500 a week for 6/8 weeks of the summer. Tax is paid on this but there are alot of expenses that goes towards it so its not bad. I converted the loft this year in the garage at a cost of €12k which paid for itself with this summers rentals, its finished well and comfortable and we dont have to move in with parents anymore and should add value to property. Shes a great person and partner thats why I want to get married, some have said dont get married but theres nothing wrong with been cautious, protection on both sides is needed thats all, Im thinking of the worst case scenario especially when Im not in a great financial position after finishing the house. We will get joint loan for wedding and I have said we should use next years rentals to buy a investment property in both our names.

CelticRambler · 26-08-2019 12:42PM

mossyob wrote: »

I totally misjudged the costs of doing this and had to max credit cards, use savings and get credit union loan.

Im thinking of the worst case scenario especially when Im not in a great financial position after finishing the house. We will get joint loan for wedding

WTF?

Following this thread from the beginning, I was reluctant to jump on the bandwagon of people hoisting red flags about your fiancé. Now it looks like she's the one who should be on here asking for advice, because it sounds like you don't know how to manage your money, and she'd be right to be worried that you'll leave her high and dry.

If you're "not in a great financial position" why on earth would you go borrowing money for a party?

Marriage House Ownership Trouble?!? (Mod note in first post)

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