Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

24-08-2019 08:05PM

Greaney wrote: »

Just something to think about.... Galway was so gridlocked Tuesday, it took the Oranmore bus 1 hour & 20 mins. Since it's 6 miles to Oranmore, we can take it that the average speed of the bus was just over 13.3 miles per hour.

Might want to recalculate

Our traffic is getting worse. we really have to take mass transit seriously and stop throwing buses out there as the solution to all our traffic & travel chaos. I've long suspected those that do, drive a lot more than they take any other mode of transport.

Buses will suffice for the foreseeable future once they have the bus lanes in.

Greaney · 24-08-2019 08:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Might want to recalculate

Buses will suffice for the foreseeable future once they have the bus lanes in.

Gosh yes, I calculated that backwards, that was 4.6 miles per hour, my bad

I was presenting the case that rail would not be adding to Galways gridlock. I was replying to an anti-rail quote rather than a pro-bike one.

I happen to cycle and find it very confusing that those who are arguing for the Northern half of the WRC to be turned into a green way aren't taking the full spectrum of cycling into account. If folk were really pro-bike that wanted the green way, I'd be seeing them a lot more on other forums and discussions regarding bike parking etc. Indeed, I don't think that argument is rail v bike but tourism income v mass transit.

Greaney · 24-08-2019 08:36PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Throwing bike lanes into the mix will be like throwing a sausage up the aisle of a cathedral.

My quote wasn't about cycling but the eagerness to turn the Western Rail Corridor into a green way, and not taking mass transit into account. Those that are arguing for the rail to be turned to trail, cite buses as the alternative to rail, in this case.

donvito99 · 24-08-2019 09:10PM

Greaney wrote: »

My quote wasn't about cycling but the eagerness to turn the Western Rail Corridor into a green way, and not taking mass transit into account. Those that are arguing for the rail to be turned to trail, cite buses as the alternative to rail, in this case.

The WRC is not proposed as and will never be "mass transit".

L1011 · 24-08-2019 10:10PM

Greaney wrote: »

I popped down to the Ballyglunin for their Heritage Week event. There were about 50+ folk there in the two hours after Lunch. Gosh, it's a lovely building and has huge ceilings. I drove from Athenry as I really wouldn't have the legs to have cycled the 30km round trip, Also I had my sister (disabled) nephew and a friend in the car. On the way there, I spotted about 4km cycle path between Abbeyknockmoy and Ballyglunin. It was from the Village to the top of the Ballyglunin road (about 2km away from the station). The river is slowmoving and wide (blue way?)

I was bold enough to ask folk about why they wanted rail and here are their reasons...
1) Since 50% of all workers in Galway city live in the county, they mostly work in Galway and have to run two cars. If they had a train they'd only need one. A car is €4k-€6k to run per year. A rail ticket is less than €1.5k
2) There's no secondary school on Ballyglunin so the children have to go to Athenry or Tuam. No public transport means it's expensive or they've very little choice in either schools or hobbies.
3) Students cannot afford to live in Galway due to rent, and cannot afford cars. There's no public transport from Ballyglunin whatsoever, so they really struggle, sometimes renting in Athenry and get the train from there to college.
4) The residents were under no illusion about Ballyglunins tourism potential. They honestly think there's not much. Their one tourism attraction (glamping) has been shut down by the fire officer.
5) Ballyglunin lost it's post-office over a year ago. The committee are looking to the future & their old age. A train would mean they're less isolated.

Finally, two car loads of us (at least) had visited from Athenry to support them. We believe there should be rail in future. We think the train service we have is amazing and support mass transit. We also love to cycle and are involved in some cycling projects (leisure & transit, not sport) but think we should be looking at alternatives to ripping up the rail to cycle to our neighbouring parishes.

This is a lovely parochial story, but there isn't anything in it at all to suggest a positive cost/benefit analysis for a reopening.

A small number of people wanting a train does not mean a train is viable. Even reasonably large numbers of people are better served by bus - and there is zero justification for providing massive state funding for people who "prefer" a train as is frequently brought up on here.

The people of Ballyglunin should be pushing for a bus, as they might actually get one. They aren't getting a train service.

end of the road · 24-08-2019 10:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Might want to recalculate

Buses will suffice for the foreseeable future once they have the bus lanes in.

they won't i'm afraid. they won't reduce the traffic congestion and create a modal shift sufficient enough to deal with the traffic issue.

a good light rail system, at least in part, will. luas and other light rail concepts are proof of this.

donvito99 · 25-08-2019 06:12AM

end of the road wrote: »

they won't i'm afraid. they won't reduce the traffic congestion and create a modal shift sufficient enough to deal with the traffic issue.

a good light rail system, at least in part, will. luas and other light rail concepts are proof of this.

Where does Luas to Ballyglunin rank in terms of Luas to Finglas, Bray, Irishtown, Logan, and a Luas System in Cork?

Should An Spideal get a spaceport also?

eastwest · 25-08-2019 07:41AM

Greaney wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

But if there is zero chance of a railway? Nobody is going to build a railway to bring a few kids to school; there us already a motorway, and buses are cheaper and more flexible.

Just something to think about.... Galway was so gridlocked Tuesday, it took the Oranmore bus 1 hour & 20 mins. Since it's 6 miles to Oranmore, we can take it that the average speed of the bus was just over 13.3 miles per hour.

Our traffic is getting worse. we really have to take mass transit seriously and stop throwing buses out there as the solution to all our traffic & travel chaos. I've long suspected those that do, drive a lot more than they take any other mode of transport.

There is a railway from Oranmore to Galway, but if it's not solving the traffic it suggests one of two things. Either the services aren't frequent enough, or it doesn't bring people to where they want to go.
I was referring to a post that suggested that people in Ballyglunin aspired to having a railway built to bring their kids to school in Athenry, when clearly a bus on the lightly used motorway is a far more cost-effective solution.

Lord Glentoran · 25-08-2019 07:46AM

donvito99 wrote: »

Where does Luas to Ballyglunin rank in terms of Luas to Finglas, Bray, Irishtown, Logan, and a Luas System in Cork?

Should An Spideal get a spaceport also?

Spiddle Spaceport now! But seriously unless something fundamentally changes with land use and transportation policy in the west you’ll be recreating Little America in Galway without any of the benefits again and again.

Accidentally · 25-08-2019 08:02AM

L1011 wrote: »

This is a lovely parochial story, but there isn't anything in it at all to suggest a positive cost/benefit analysis for a reopening.

A small number of people wanting a train does not mean a train is viable. Even reasonably large numbers of people are better served by bus - and there is zero justification for providing massive state funding for people who "prefer" a train as is frequently brought up on here.

The people of Ballyglunin should be pushing for a bus, as they might actually get one. They aren't getting a train service.

Just a few comments on Ballyglunin.

There is no village. It is a townland with a church at best.

The sparse local housing is mainly single houses on half an acre plots. Most of these are relatively new.

Main access is via the nearby N63 at Ballyglunin Cross. There are bus stops at the cross roads for Galway and Roscommon.

Last time I took any notice there was a school bus to Tuam.

Isambard · 25-08-2019 08:32AM

the metropolis that is Ballyglunin

upload pictures url

eastwest · 25-08-2019 09:23AM

Accidentally wrote: »

L1011 wrote: »

This is a lovely parochial story, but there isn't anything in it at all to suggest a positive cost/benefit analysis for a reopening.

A small number of people wanting a train does not mean a train is viable. Even reasonably large numbers of people are better served by bus - and there is zero justification for providing massive state funding for people who "prefer" a train as is frequently brought up on here.

The people of Ballyglunin should be pushing for a bus, as they might actually get one. They aren't getting a train service.

Just a few comments on Ballyglunin.

There is no village. It is a townland with a church at best.

The sparse local housing is mainly single houses on half an acre plots. Most of these are relatively new.

Main access is via the nearby N63 at Ballyglunin Cross. There are bus stops at the cross roads for Galway and Roscommon.

Last time I took any notice there was a school bus to Tuam.

But but but they have the luas up in Dublin.

Lord Glentoran · 25-08-2019 10:35AM

eastwest wrote: »

But but but they have the luas up in Dublin.

Let’s pick a Station in the west at random. Should Ballymote, and the railway running through it, be ripped up and replaced with a greenway?

Accidentally · 25-08-2019 11:48AM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Let’s pick a Station in the west at random. Should Ballymote, and the railway running through it, be ripped up and replaced with a greenway?

I don't really care about the greenway, other than I would like to see the line used for something, but I do get a bit annoyed at people peddling visions of commuter services on the WRC. If someone wants to rebuild it as a heritage steam train line, that would be fine, but I wish we could add stop with this nonsense about it being an effective and frequent way to get to Galway, Tuam, or anywhere else. The line does the best job possible of going from Galway to Tuam while avoiding all towns and places of employment in between.

L1011 · 25-08-2019 12:44PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Let’s pick a Station in the west at random. Should Ballymote, and the railway running through it, be ripped up and replaced with a greenway?

"Let's try a surreal strawman argument" you mean.

Lord Glentoran · 25-08-2019 03:08PM

L1011 wrote: »

"Let's try a surreal strawman argument" you mean.

Do you moderate this forum?

L1011 · 25-08-2019 03:36PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Do you moderate this forum?

Normal posters are allowed point out fallacious arguments you know

eastwest · 25-08-2019 04:49PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

But but but they have the luas up in Dublin.

Let’s pick a Station in the west at random. Should Ballymote, and the railway running through it, be ripped up and replaced with a greenway?

Ballymote is on the Dublin Sligo line, not a very busy stop but gets a trickle of passengers in to Sligo and a lesser number heading the other way. The line itself is busy though, full to capacity after Longford quite often, so there is no suggestion of it being closed and torn up.
Hiwever if the line didn't exist, or was closed and derelict, there is no way that anyone in their right mind would propose building a railway to connect Ballymote and Sligo. It would make as much sense as building a railway to bring a few children from Ballyglunin to school in athenry.

Lord Glentoran · 25-08-2019 06:29PM

L1011 wrote: »

Normal posters are allowed point out fallacious arguments you know

Ah sweet. I thought backseat modding was a Nono but clearly there’s a distinction.

Lord Glentoran · 25-08-2019 06:32PM

eastwest wrote: »

Ballymote is on the Dublin Sligo line, not a very busy stop but gets a trickle of passengers in to Sligo and a lesser number heading the other way. The line itself is busy though, full to capacity after Longford quite often, so there is no suggestion of it being closed and torn up.
Hiwever if the line didn't exist, or was closed and derelict, there is no way that anyone in their right mind would propose building a railway to connect Ballymote and Sligo. It would make as much sense as building a railway to bring a few children from Ballyglunin to school in athenry.

But like another discussed to death railway, the MGWR Sligo line was never a small town to regional business centre railway. Fallacious argument there.

dowlingm · 25-08-2019 07:30PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just how much do you think going via Clarenbridge on a totally new alignment would have cost? Also it would then mean that trains going from Limerick to Tuam and points north would have to go to Galway first - utter tripe.

Direct or even connecting rail service (at Oranmore) from Limerick to Tuam will never make sense while the M18 exists. And yes I know the Clarinbridge alignment would have blown the budget too, just pointing out what would be required to create an attractive Limerick- Galway service by rail when the Bus Eireann X service exists.

eastwest · 25-08-2019 09:13PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

Ballymote is on the Dublin Sligo line, not a very busy stop but gets a trickle of passengers in to Sligo and a lesser number heading the other way. The line itself is busy though, full to capacity after Longford quite often, so there is no suggestion of it being closed and torn up.
Hiwever if the line didn't exist, or was closed and derelict, there is no way that anyone in their right mind would propose building a railway to connect Ballymote and Sligo. It would make as much sense as building a railway to bring a few children from Ballyglunin to school in athenry.

But like another discussed to death railway, the MGWR Sligo line was never a small town to regional business centre railway. Fallacious argument there.

Exactly.

Muckyboots · 26-08-2019 03:31PM

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/08/26/4178700-planning-minister-asks-that-navan-rail-line-priority-be-downgraded/
This "rail review" fudging is catching on.

serfboard · 26-08-2019 06:14PM

Muckyboots wrote: »

https://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/08/26/4178700-planning-minister-asks-that-navan-rail-line-priority-be-downgraded/
This "rail review" fudging is catching on.

Navan is a special case.

On paper, a town of 30,000 connecting to a city of a million people should have enough business to justify the re-opening of the line.

However, from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:

[The M3] is tolled at two locations, one point north of Navan and another point between Dunshaughlin and Clonee for 45 years running from 2007. The Government have the option to buy out this contract at any time. The price level of tolls is controlled by the Board of the NRA and they can reduce, increase or remove the tolls as they see appropriate. Should they lower the tolls on the M3 the government would have to make up the difference of what is owed yearly to Eurolink M3 Ltd through tax revenue. Thus Eurolink are guaranteed a certain agreed return from their investment and would not suffer from any reduction in toll revenue from either a toll reduction or the planned opening of the Navan rail line. The toll revenue is collected by a private company on behalf of the state as a means to pay the private sector consortium annually for their initial one off investment in constructing the road.

The more people that would use a Navan rail line, the less would use the motorway, and then the greater subvention that the state would have to make up. Therefore, the government has a vested interest in not re-opening the line.

Now you might ask, who was responsible for such a sh1tty deal with the consortium? Well, IIRC, the Minister for Meath Transport at the time was Noel Dempsey (he of the "we are not getting a bailout from the IMF", when the IMF were already in the country doing just that).

Anyway, between Bus Eireann's 109/109A/109X/NX and the services operated by Sillan buses, Navan is very well served with a 24-hour connection to both Dublin City and the Airport.

And, for the reason mentioned above, it looks like that's all they're going to get. At least until the M3 PPP expires - in 2052!

L1011 · 26-08-2019 06:28PM

The M3 subvention is literally down to tens of thousands a year at this stage, will go to 0 soon due to increased traffic and expires well before the PPP expires.

It's fully funded from the surplus from the M1 and M4 who have to pay TII above certain traffic levels.

It's a red herring now

serfboard · 26-08-2019 06:49PM

L1011 wrote: »

The M3 subvention is literally down to tens of thousands a year at this stage, will go to 0 soon due to increased traffic and expires well before the PPP expires.

It's fully funded from the surplus from the M1 and M4 who have to pay TII above certain traffic levels.

OK, that's interesting.

I see that as recently as 2016:

The Comptroller and Auditor General wrote:

€1.2 million was paid to the private partner under the M3 Clonee-Kells contract

but that:

The Comptroller and Auditor General wrote:

the guaranteed payments under the M3 project are projected to end in 2019 in a medium traffic growth scenario.

Still doesn't invalidate my point that the guaranteed payments only cease if traffic numbers grow.

A train line to Navan is a threat to traffic growth and that alone would justify an ad infinitum rail review.

Well, that and a little thing called Brexit, means we won't have any money for it anyway.

L1011 · 26-08-2019 06:58PM

Those are 2016 figures being cited in 2017. The amount fell off a cliff as traffic increased, I've posted later figures here last time this came up and I'll try find them.

The NX bus introduction was as big a threat to numbers and it still happened.

It is utterly a red herring - it will have zero impact on whether it happens or not.

L1011 · 26-08-2019 07:07PM

By March 2018 the forecast total future payments for the M3 were 200 grand. Not a year, 200 grand total.

This means there is plenty of headroom for reducing traffic figures and not incurring any significant amounts. 200k in to a cost/benefit analysis for a project of that size is just noise, it won't affect it materially. Also note that they're now fully covered by other TII income, not tax revenue at all.

I know its a drum that has been banged for a long time, but its simply not relevant anymore.

serfboard · 27-08-2019 12:25PM

L1011 wrote: »

it will have zero impact on whether it happens or not.

Alright - another way of reading this is to say that there will not be enough people using a train service to significantly affect traffic numbers.

Would make you question why it is being proposed if that's the case.

27-08-2019 01:09PM

serfboard wrote: »

Would make you question why it is being proposed if that's the case.

"cos that's the why!!"

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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