Third Irish forestry fund.

okidoki987 · 21-08-2019 10:24pm

kazamo wrote: »

Fourth Forestry plan. 1188.77
Fifth Forestry plan. 1090.63
Ninth Forestry plan. 1049.15

Fourth and Fifth were about six months apart (from memory), made noticeable difference in the return

I had 5th and got €1061.65 which was the same as Dan1981

sandman30 · 21-08-2019 10:28pm

Davo222 wrote: »

no tax due on forestry investments.

There is no Income tax, CGT or CAT due on forestry investments. However timber sales are still subject to the USC and PRSI. the underlying land.

As I understand it, if the forestry is sold before maturation the sales proceeds needs to be apportioned between the land and the standing trees. The land is subject to CGT, but the underlying land is not. If it is a company disposing of the land, then both the trees and land are subject to CGT. There is the annual exemption for CGT though, however no longer any inflation relief.

I'm not able to post the link but details available on the Revenue website, google:
Profits from the occupation of woodlands: Quantifying profits or gains Part 07-03-09

TruthEnforcer · 21-08-2019 11:40pm

Hi all .. just wondering if any of you lucky 'wind-fallers' are interested ... ??

I have a stripe of land and was thinking of planting sunflowers .. huge expected demand in about 30 years time and I can confidently forecast a return of about 500% or more on your investments.... maybe more ....

Please send your unloved and unwanted cheques to me at .......

LVIrish21 · 21-08-2019 11:44pm

Here are the Average Annual Returns for my three Forestry Growth Plans. To show performance relative to inflation I calculated approximate Average Annual CPI using data from the Central Statistics Office.

4th Forestry Growth Plan (December 2007): 5.1% (CPI 0.8%)
5th Forestry Growth Plan (May 2008): 4.1% (CPI 0.4%)
10th Forestry growth Plan (October 2010): 5.3% (CPI 0.6%)

Nominal returns are less than prospectus projections but one could argue this is partly due to lower inflation than forecast when the Plans launched.

Also, the short-term Plans performed better than the long-term Funds, based on what owners of the Funds have posted. I have no explanation for the difference in performance.

I would like a journalist to write an article about Irish Forestry Services and the performance of all their Funds and Plans, to educate a wider audience on risks, to demonstrate there was no "summer bonanza" for investors, and actual returns contradict the statement (on IFS's home page) "This is a very positive development for our shareholders, the portfolio’s value and returns serving as a strong endorsement of the Irish forestry and timber sector."

coolshannagh28 · 22-08-2019 12:24am

The smart money in forestry buys at around the 20 year stage when the premiums have run out on the original investment and owners become more incentivised to sell just the asset is beginning to grow and appreciate at its fastest rate for the next 10 to 15 years.

Phoebas · 22-08-2019 7:35am

Made the papers.

Forestry investors learn that money doesn’t grow on trees (via @IrishTimes)

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/forestry-investors-learn-that-money-doesn-t-grow-on-trees-1.3993293

Harry Palmr · 22-08-2019 7:57am

Not much of an article, hopefully someone will follow up on specific aspects like the way 30 year plans have performed the worst.

FFruits · 22-08-2019 8:41am

Correct they are elderly so made a mistake &#55357;&#56877;. Same conversion as everyone else. What a let down.

galwaytt · 22-08-2019 9:32am

I'll tell you how badly we've been conned here. Around the time of these funds, we planted a few trees in the garden.

Last year, they needed tidying up, and I had a tree surgeon in. Over time these trees has seeded themselves, so where I'd planted 4 (iirc), there are now 6 or 8. Nothing major. Not exactly a forest.

The guy doing the work remarked that if we got them at the right time and got the rootball out intact, that each tree is worth about €4k.

That's just-about the amount we got back from 4 shares in Forestry after 21 years. In just 1 tree.

All the talk about the 'optimum' price for selling the timber and 'market's is complete BS. I buy imported timber for our business, weekly. Timber has never been in such demand, and we've been dumped on for the benefit of others.

Shoneenman · 22-08-2019 9:32am

I was in the Third Fund. While we were obviously completely misled about returns, I'm not sure we can do anything about it unless we can prove malfeasance or fraud on the part of management. Could we argue that the funds were mis-sold on the basis of projected returns? But not a regulated investment so CBI won't get involved.

When I read the Ind article earlier in the summer I had expectations that we would get decent returns based on the "windfall" in the headline and it did strike me as odd that they could proceed with a sale without approval. However when you read the annual accounts, the redeemable shares are the only ones that benefit from growth in the value of the underlying forestry assets, but have no voting rights. The voting rights rest with the ordinary shareholders and presumably they voted in favour of the sale. It should be possible to find out from the CRO who the holders of the ordinary shares were, but again not sure what we can do with that information.

A complete sickener!!

antietam1 · 22-08-2019 9:42am

Mod Note. Even though tongue in cheek, advocating illegal activity is illegal.
Thanks. GC

Harry Palmr · 22-08-2019 9:53am

galwaytt wrote: »

I'll tell you how badly we've been conned here. Around the time of these funds, we planted a few trees in the garden.

Last year, they needed tidying up, and I had a tree surgeon in. Over time these trees has seeded themselves, so where I'd planted 4 (iirc), there are now 6 or 8. Nothing major. Not exactly a forest.

The guy doing the work remarked that if we got them at the right time and got the rootball out intact, that each tree is worth about €4k.

That's just-about the amount we got back from 4 shares in Forestry after 21 years. In just 1 tree.

All the talk about the 'optimum' price for selling the timber and 'market's is complete BS. I buy imported timber for our business, weekly. Timber has never been in such demand, and we've been dumped on for the benefit of others.

Did you plant conifers or ash/oak/beech/birch? One of the latter I'll bet.

okidoki987 · 22-08-2019 11:06am

We've all been "had" and that's it in a nutshell.
We were sold the "great return, tax free" and that put a lot of us into these funds but it's not the 1st time (and probably not the last) Irish people have been taken in by people offering "great returns".
A lot can happen (or not happen) in 30 years and this gave the promoters a good bit of time to sell so many funds to the Irish people.

There are many questions to be answered by the promoters.
Why were the funds sold in a "fire sale" instead of holding onto them until maturity?
Why was the return so bad especially when in 2011 (the 5th fund), we were told each share in the fund was worth €1,490 and now, 8 years later, the same share is only worth €1,061?
If this was same for all the funds, how did they sell the later funds with projected returns?
Why were the shareholders not informed that the proceeds would way less than what was originally suggested?
The sale price was not pre-advised to shareholders.
People who have run the company for 20 odd years taking a good salary out of the pot, now have jobs with the new owner, conflict of interest?
Would have thought that Central Bank of Ireland would need to have a look at what has happened here?
As per the website

The Irish Forestry Funds are individually registered with the Central Bank as Alternative Investment Funds (AIF) under the European Union Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013

I'm sure there are many other questions to be asked and answered and we will await further developments.

paris24 · 22-08-2019 11:27am

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/investors-in-irish-forestry-learn-money-doesn-t-grow-on-trees-1.3993293?mode=amp

Shoneenman · 22-08-2019 4:58pm

The Central Bank will not investigate complaints from private individuals. The Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman will investigate complaints from private individuals but only after you have spent months banging your head against a brick wall with your "provider" (in this case our friends running the various funds) and have the evidence to prove it.

Looking at the 2019 accounts for the Third Fund on the website - final version before the business cease trading - the ordinary shares are owned by IFS Asset Managers "which is controlled by the directors of the company". So they decided to sell and then mandated themselves to execute the sale, and agreed (presumably lucrative) positions for themselves in Veon as part of the sale process to AXA. Related party transactions mentioned in accounts but no reference to actual or potential conflict of interest. A question for someone with legal expertise, but this must raise concerns at a regulatory level?

In relation to the Third Fund, total payout was 3,000 x €1,1313.11 = €3,939,330 which is almost the same as shareholders funds figure on final balance sheet, and actually slightly more than cash at bank figure (although some debtors still outstanding). It doesn't appear that any funds went elsewhere, just lousy forestry managers for their investors (although great fee collectors on behalf of IFS and Veon).

Harry Palmr · 22-08-2019 5:06pm

Has any other forestry investment scheme for the general public worked? I know at least one ended with the law knocking on some doors. Also has there been any suggestion of institutional investors? I;m assuming not as there would be much more media interest (the big boys have all the right contacts to place a story)

nerine · 23-08-2019 8:26am

Good article in today's Independent by Charlie Weston

sue97 · 23-08-2019 8:37am

I never got a cheque, I had emailed a change of address to a Barry Caudwell as advised by the Irish Forestry fund in May. He did not respond and yesterday I found his phone number and he said he was not the contact and gave me an email of a girl on Deloitte who as of this morning has not responded.

Wondering if I am going to get any money at all.

okidoki987 · 23-08-2019 8:47am

nerine wrote: »

Good article in today's Independent by Charlie Weston

Link.

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/investors-fury-as-forestry-fund-sale-ends-hope-of-hitting-return-targets-38427986.html

okidoki987 · 23-08-2019 8:59am

Also debated here

https://askaboutmoney.com/threads/investment-in-irish-forestry-funds.6699/page-15

nerine · 23-08-2019 9:00am

sue97 wrote: »

I never got a cheque, I had emailed a change of address to a Barry Caudwell as advised by the Irish Forestry fund in May. He did not respond and yesterday I found his phone number and he said he was not the contact and gave me an email of a girl on Deloitte who as of this morning has not responded.

Wondering if I am going to get any money at all.

If you did not get any response to your change of address then I would think that your cheque is gone to your old address. Did you receive letter in May advising you of the sale? I too changed address & there was a standard form to complete after which I received communication from them in the post to confirm that the change of address had occurred. Can you try your old address?

sue97 · 23-08-2019 9:10am

nerine wrote: »

If you did not get any response to your change of address then I would think that your cheque is gone to your old address. Did you receive letter in May advising you of the sale? I too changed address & there was a standard form to complete after which I received communication from them in the post to confirm that the change of address had occurred. Can you try your old address?

I am friends with the people who bought our house. I might pop around and ask her. Thanks

nerine · 23-08-2019 9:14am

Lets know how you get on, I'm intrigued. Poor and all as the returns are its good to at least get your cheque

antietam1 · 23-08-2019 10:24am

So McHugh is saying he sees no chance in a big increase in timber prices.
I know Axa do things on a much larger scale but even so they were talking in glowing terms of this purchase, what's in it for them?

nerine · 23-08-2019 10:41am

What indeed

tomgilboy · 23-08-2019 10:44am

paris24 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/investors-in-irish-forestry-learn-money-doesn-t-grow-on-trees-1.3993293?mode=amp

Stupid article by this so called journalist of the Irish Times ..plasters over the shareholders ire at what has happened here ..doesn't question the boyos / Veon on their old return claims when selling the schemes and finishes with a great line " investors should never believe the hype". ..wow the journalists / papers believed all the 'Hype' last May ...and isn't it odd that the photograph used in the article is credited to one 'Trevor McHugh' ...did he write up the article for the Irish Times as well ????

iriship · 23-08-2019 11:13am

Thargor wrote: »

About how much did you get out of curiosity? Return on investment I mean? Did you get your money back at least?

For 1 shares in forth fund cost €634.85 total return €1269.73 for 20 of the 30 year's it was to run

This fund was to run for 30years total return expected/projected was €17500 per share.

(1) money was to be used to pay for land.

(2) Grant's to pay for planting and maintenance.

On sale land and tree's to be sold.

(1) land alone has gone up approx 400% in the last 20 years. Giving a return of app €2500.00 per share ( not including value of tree after 20 years growing)?

(2) what was/is the value put tree's on land growing for 20 years on average and how much did we get?

galwaytt · 23-08-2019 1:17pm

antietam1 wrote: »

So McHugh is saying he sees no chance in a big increase in timber prices.
I know Axa do things on a much larger scale but even so they were talking in glowing terms of this purchase, what's in it for them?

He's wrong.

I build 'timber frame' houses. Timber has never been so expensive nor in such short supply.

Wars, famine, disaster: all INCREASE the price of timber, not reduce it (to rebuild). During the Iraq war for example, demand for OSB went off the charts as the US military bought every sheet they could get their hands on.

And Smartply spent €59m on a new OSB timber line in their plant in Waterford: which is financed by the State: they didn't do this because there was no demand: they did this to try and keep up with it.

Some of the mills on the continent wont' even quote the UK or Irl for timber anymore as they have so much volume going to Asia and mainland EU. This means Irish importers are having to bid more just to get it, on the commodity markets.

The whole thing stinks.

antietam1 · 23-08-2019 1:32pm

Ok add my Mrs to this mass class action suit, lets throw some chum in the water and see if we get a get a lawyer feeding frenzy going.

Harry Palmr · 23-08-2019 2:58pm

Why would you want to do that? Lawyers cost money. They won't be working on a speculative investment action pro bono.

Third Irish forestry fund.

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