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Media: 'Professionals only' - Daft.ie ordered to block discriminatory terms in ads

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    #62
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    the_syco wrote: »
    Old way; increase rent when old tenant moves out, if you had rented it below the market rate.
    RPZ way; either you increase the rent by 4% whenever possible, or you may not get a chance to level it up, if the current tenant moves out.


    Old way; if you have a good tenant, leave the rent at the current level, as they're treating the house nicely, and increase the rent when they leave.
    RPZ way; increase the rent by 4% whenever possible.

    My point on RPZ isnt that complaints on RPZ were wrong but I'm saying the idea of promoting no HAP for lower rents conflicts with the thinking on RPZ.

    How are landlords going to deal with reductions from current rate when current rate PLUS 4 percent is too restrictive - is a fair question imo.


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    #63
    overkill602
    Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭overkill602


    terrydel wrote: »
    The country is run by a staunchly 'rightist' government for the last 8+ years (and i won't even go into what was in charge before that) so any leftist bias, perceived or otherwise, that has influence across society, it's only a finger in the dam towards addressing the imbalance.


    Right wing, ur havin a laugh
    Its an uneven balance those who pay high taxes work hard been wasted on those who contribute zero


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    #64
    Portsalon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Portsalon


    terrydel wrote: »
    The country is run by a staunchly 'rightist' government for the last 8+ years (and i won't even go into what was in charge before that) so any leftist bias, perceived or otherwise, that has influence across society, it's only a finger in the dam towards addressing the imbalance.

    Finger in the dyke is the correct term. As a long time student of WRC verdicts, to me they appear to have much the same consistency, impartiality, value and quality as the collected views of a cluster of barrack room lawyers after their sixth schooner of non-vintage port.

    (I have had some personal experience of the WRC and, happy to say, its ludicrous and asinine "verdict" was later thrown out - and eviscerated - by the High Court.)


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    #65
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    Portsalon wrote: »
    Finger in the dyke is the correct term. As a long time student of WRC verdicts, to me they appear to have much the same consistency, impartiality, value and quality as the collected views of a cluster of barrack room lawyers after their sixth schooner of non-vintage port.

    (I have had some personal experience of the WRC and, happy to say, its ludicrous and asinine "verdict" was later thrown out - and eviscerated - by the High Court.)
    Same problem that most quasi-judicial system suffer (for example the RTB): they tend to lack impartiality and consistency of intepretation, this could be due to the selective bias in the hiring process of their adjudicators. The court system was designed (even if it has its own big flaws) in order to produce as much impartiality and consistency as possible while these quasi-judicial systems were not, they were created to have "rapid" decision making by "specialist" which in the case of "equality"/"RTB" tribunals tend to come from a certain section of society.


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    #66
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Hugh Big Umbrella wrote: »
    The LL is handing you the keys to a property worth several 100 thousand and you expect not to be able to do something as basic as produce a bank statement. Would you try to apply for loan and expect to be able to do it without a bank statement?

    Are landlords qualified to analyse finances?


    Thats just it. Their not but its a shot in the dark that the tenant might actually pay what they agree to and have the ability to. Your question is smart arsed but it does highlight the cute irish tenant attitude of trying to get a place and ski without paying the rent.


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    #67
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Thats just it. Their not but its a shot in the dark that the tenant might actually pay what they agree to and have the ability to. Your question is smart arsed but it does highlight the cute irish tenant attitude of trying to get a place and ski without paying the rent.

    I'm sure that works both ways - I'm sure there's tenants out there that feel they are working to just pay a landlord and not really feeling they are getting a product that fits what they pay.

    What is the actual percentage of tenants that default?????


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    #68
    Portsalon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Portsalon


    GGTrek wrote: »
    Same problem that most quasi-judicial system suffer (for example the RTB): they tend to lack impartiality and consistency of intepretation, this could be due to the selective bias in the hiring process of their adjudicators. The court system was designed (even if it has its own big flaws) in order to produce as much impartiality and consistency as possible while these quasi-judicial systems were not, they were created to have "rapid" decision making by "specialist" which in the case of "equality"/"RTB" tribunals tend to come from a certain section of society.

    Agreed. At the time when I was involved, Rights Commissioners used to be nominated either by the Trade Unions or the Employers (IBEC?), but that may have changed.


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    #69
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    overkill602 wrote: »
    Right wing, ur havin a laugh
    Its an uneven balance those who pay high taxes work hard been wasted on those who contribute zero

    Our current government is as economically right wing as any we've had, by a long shot.
    Pure market worshiping ideology. Totally enthrall to big business. No interest in the state doing much of anything.


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    #70
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,538 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Old diesel wrote: »
    I'm sure that works both ways - I'm sure there's tenants out there that feel they are working to just pay a landlord and not really feeling they are getting a product that fits what they pay.

    What is the actual percentage of tenants that default?????


    I have no idea how many default, Id say its rare enough but when it happens, it can happen in expensive style.

    In the local paper here about 2 weeks there was a court case against a tenant not paying rent. No rent paid in about 16 months, 24000 euros owed to the landlady* and the landlord had to go to the RTB and then Naas district court (twice!) to get the judge to order the tenant to leave or else.

    That house will never get rented again! Ye'd want to be mad to rent out a house with that level of risk. :pac:


    *Landladys son actually, the lady is in a nursing home


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    #71
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Old diesel wrote: »
    handlemaster wrote: »
    Thats just it. Their not but its a shot in the dark that the tenant might actually pay what they agree to and have the ability to. Your question is smart arsed but it does highlight the cute irish tenant attitude of trying to get a place and ski without paying the rent.

    I'm sure that works both ways - I'm sure there's tenants out there that feel they are working to just pay a landlord and not really feeling they are getting a product that fits what they pay.

    What is the actual percentage of tenants that default?????


    Their getting alot more than their giving if no rent is been paid.


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    #72
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Complete nonsense, and a waste of time for all parties. I rent out a few apartments in Dublin, and am lucky to have excellent tenants in all of them. If I have to rent them in the future then I won’t be allowed specify who I went to rent to, but I won’t be renting them to anyone who isn’t an IT professional from Italy.


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    #73
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Their getting alot more than their giving if no rent is been paid.

    Clearly they are....

    But what percentage actually default - you make it sound like that the majority of tenants are out to screw landlords - hence I asked what percentage actually default .


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    #74
    terrydel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,881 ✭✭✭terrydel


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Clearly they are....

    But what percentage actually default - you make it sound like that the majority of tenants are out to screw landlords - hence I asked what percentage actually default .

    There was a story the other day on overholding, another cause celebre of the baying mob on here, who'd have you believe half the tenants in the country are at it. Iirc it said 105 cases have been proven this year by the rtb, which is a tiny fraction of the number of tenancies in Ireland I'd imagine. My guess is the issue of defaulting would count for an even smaller percentage. Of course it's dreadful for the ll when it happens, and it should never happen, but I think the problem is tiny in reality.
    In over ten years as an ll, I never had an issue with either overholding and non payment, and I'd a majority of social welfare tenants, all great bar one.


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    #75
    Subutai
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Subutai


    Portsalon wrote: »
    Agreed. At the time when I was involved, Rights Commissioners used to be nominated either by the Trade Unions or the Employers (IBEC?), but that may have changed.

    RTB tribunal members are almost all barristers, with a few property consultants thrown in. Hardly traditional friends of Tenants tbh.

    They're hiring right now in fact.


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    #76
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Subutai wrote: »
    RTB tribunal members are almost all barristers, with a few property consultants thrown in. Hardly traditional friends of Tenants tbh.

    They're hiring right now in fact.

    I thought Portsalon was referring to the WRC


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    #77
    Subutai
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Subutai


    Old diesel wrote: »
    I thought Portsalon was referring to the WRC

    The comment he was replying to was about the RTB, so I was continuing the conversation in that vein.

    WRC AOs are now hired through PAS, although I imagine they've a lot of people absorbed through the merger of the various IR bodies. They want people with employment law qualifications and signifiant experience of industrial relations, so you'd expect former trade union officials to be successful in that kind of a competition. There isn't really a comparable pool from which to draw RTB tribunal members - certainly not one likely to be systematically biased towards tenants.

    Barristers aren't noted for their left wing views.


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    #78
    Portsalon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Portsalon


    Subutai wrote: »

    The comment he was replying to was about the RTB, so I was continuing the conversation in that vein.

    Not so. I was responding to a post regarding a finding made by a WRC donkey. She may have finished primary school, but I strongly doubt that she's a lawyer.


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    #79
    Subutai
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭Subutai


    Portsalon wrote: »
    Not so. I was responding to a post regarding a finding made by a WRC donkey. She may have finished primary school, but I strongly doubt that she's a lawyer.

    The post you were responding to makes multiple references to the RTB while talking about their tribunals coming from a certain section of society.
    GGTrek wrote: »
    Same problem that most quasi-judicial system suffer (for example the RTB): they tend to lack impartiality and consistency of intepretation, this could be due to the selective bias in the hiring process of their adjudicators. The court system was designed (even if it has its own big flaws) in order to produce as much impartiality and consistency as possible while these quasi-judicial systems were not, they were created to have "rapid" decision making by "specialist" which in the case of "equality"/"RTB" tribunals tend to come from a certain section of society.


    Always amazes me to see people talk about others finishing primary school while they've the reading comprehension of someone struggling to do so.


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    #80
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    When i see professional,s only,
    i presume the landlord does not want students or tenants on the hap scheme .
    So waht will happen is if someone who is on welfare rings up,
    the landlord could still say ,i, do not take rent allowance clients .


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    #81
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    riclad wrote: »
    When i see professional,s only,
    i presume the landlord does not want students or tenants on the hap scheme .
    So waht will happen is if someone who is on welfare rings up,
    the landlord could still say ,i, do not take rent allowance clients .

    In the current shortage the landlord might have 20 people looking at the place.

    He will pick his preferred tenant but won't tell a HAP applicanf that he's turning them down over HAP.


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    #82
    GGTrek
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭GGTrek


    Subutai wrote: »
    The post you were responding to makes multiple references to the RTB while talking about their tribunals coming from a certain section of society.




    Always amazes me to see people talk about others finishing primary school while they've the reading comprehension of someone struggling to do so.
    What worries me greatly is that people with your ideas help shaping legislation.


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    #83
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    This decision needs to be appealed to a proper court. Not sure Orla Jones in the WRC has the qualifications to make such a strong ruling.

    I don't think that it is discriminatory under any legal grounds to say the words "professionals only". It would appear she has a history for being a bit of a soft touch with decision from a search of her cases.


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    #84
    10pennymixup
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭10pennymixup


    screamer wrote: »
    Don’t care, my salary is private as is my running total. Talk about giving a landlord carte Blanche to up your rent. Crazy stuff.

    By 4%.............crazy stuff indeed.:rolleyes:


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    #85
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Professionals only could be seen as basically a way of saying no HAP.

    That's why it's seen as a problem

    Edit wishful thinking on boards doesn't make Orla Jones wrong .


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    #86
    kennethsmyth
    Registered Users Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭kennethsmyth


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Professionals only could be seen as basically a way of saying no HAP.

    That's why it's seen as a problem

    Edit wishful thinking on boards doesn't make Orla Jones wrong .


    I agree with you but I don't agree with "references required" being discrimatory.

    References required is checking the good standing of the possible tenant.


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    #87
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,790 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    kennethsmyth wrote: »
    Old diesel wrote: »
    Professionals only could be seen as basically a way of saying no HAP.

    That's why it's seen as a problem

    Edit wishful thinking on boards doesn't make Orla Jones wrong .


    I agree with you but I don't agree with "references required" being discrimatory.

    References required is checking the good standing of the possible tenant.

    I think the references were viewed as discrimination on age grounds as young people starting out will have none.

    This is actually something the housing sector needs to look at in future ......

    How can you get started as a tenant if you need something you can't possibly have as a first time tenant - a landlord reference.


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    #88
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Fian


    "If you wish to provide references please provide them in your response"


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    #89
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Old diesel wrote: »
    How can you get started as a tenant if you need something you can't possibly have as a first time tenant - a landlord reference.

    You get your parents or your employer to go as guarantor- the same as in any other country?


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    #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Professionals only could be seen as basically a way of saying no HAP.

    That's why it's seen as a problem

    Edit wishful thinking on boards doesn't make Orla Jones wrong .

    The issue is that you can’t just say no HAP, no students, no one on the dole, no kids etc on the ad. It’s pure nonsense that a LL can’t specify exact criteria for who he/she does or does not want renting their property.


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    #91
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Fian wrote: »
    "If you wish to provide references please provide them in your response"

    Won't work as it's equivalent to suggesting they're needed.
    The only effective methods is too show proof of capability to pay rent, i.e. back statements


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