The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 06:24PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I mean in current qualification games they are doing aliright - all on 9 points each in the Euro's quantification (beat Turkey in on of the games).

https://ie.soccerway.com/international/europe/european-championship-qualification/2020/qualifying-round/group-h/g12194/

If anyone is doing the fooling it is yourself you think that training would turn Bastic into Fenton!
Your own county f**ked up it's chances of success by having a heave against its manager - Rochford
Internal politics a disaster.

You need the players, management a plan, a structure before any funding.
What do Mayo have Cora Staunton?

I never said you could turn bastick into fenton. In fact I specifically stated that was not the case. What I did say was without the level of professional coaching available to him throughout his developmental years, fenton becomes more like bastick. That is to say, still a good fielder of the ball, a capable midfield player, mobile and quick, but lower technique levels, not as good on both feet or as comfortable on the ball. He probably gives the ball away more.

Or maybe he falls away from football for a while and never makes the county setup...

Re my own county - the only relevant point here is that they dont have that level of professional coaching made available to them - the same as every other county outside dublin. Anything else is beside the point. As for rochford, unless he has a time machine and 40 professional coaches willing to go with him back to 2000 and work for free, he has no relevance in this discussion.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:27PM

bruschi wrote: »

Dublin have by far the worst participation on population per registered club member. If the aim is to have increased participation per capita, then it has failed. If we are basing it on percentage increase of members, then it is a success.

So what do we base the figure on? Per registered club member or per population? Because if it is per population, it's a failure and the figure looks low. If it is per club member the figure is high and a success. You can't have it both ways.

I think it has failed because it has not made real encroachments in the soccer and rugby heartlands.
Plus I do not see enough young fellas who's parents are from outside Ireland in Dublin teams/clubs?
Where have all the Pawel's, Li Wei's and Babangida's gone?

Dublin have just maintained thier areas v soccer and rugby in the capital not taken them on.

Gachla · 13-08-2019 06:27PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What do you suggest?

What do YOU want? What are your solutions?

I have suggestions but why put them forward to people who can't even admit there's a problem despite huge evidence to show that there is?

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:32PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I never said you could turn bastick into fenton. In fact I specifically stated that was not the case. What I did say was without the level of professional coaching available to him throughout his developmental years, fenton becomes more like bastick. That is to say, still a good fielder of the ball, a capable midfield player, mobile and quick, but lower technique levels, not as good on both feet or as comfortable on the ball. He probably gives the ball away more.

Or maybe he falls away from football for a while and never makes the county setup...

Re my own county - the only relevant point here is that they dont have that level of professional coaching made available to them - the same as every other county outside dublin. Anything else is beside the point. As for rochford, unless he has a time machine and 40 professional coaches willing to go with him back to 2000 and work for free, he has no relevance in this discussion.

It is relevant everything has to knit - management players they all have to work as one - Mayo are a prime example of getting it wrong - dumped Rochford out.
There is no way Fenton would have ended up like Bastic if he had less of this mythical training you are on about either.

The fella is a natural athlete, he would be great in any code.
Cavanagh mentioned on TSG that he was flying on the treadmill full pelt AFTER the Dubs won an AI in Dubai at an all-stars tour.
You cannot manufacture natural ability.

odyssey06 · 13-08-2019 06:33PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What subsequent games? They got a comprehensive hiding in the next game from france and were out... The england win is their big claim to fame. Ours is beating italy in the group in 1994 - 25 years ago... Therein lies my point. You seem to think that the other top teams should be content with getting a big win once every 25 odd years. You werent happy when dublin were falling just short for all irelands, yet think everyone else should be happy with far less... It is the equivalent of offering us a nice shiny penny while you take all that troublesome paper money...
Who do you think you are fooling?

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 06:35PM

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

You have to have “professional” coaches to teach a child to use both feet and hands - mind absolutely boggles!

That’s just common sense - I’m not a professional coach but any session I do will always make players work on both sides. Not hard to put high coaching standards in place in counties for very little cost - problem is some coaches have lost the amateur ethos even at club level coaching, which is madness.

Posted this before but there was a fantastic initiative with hurling this year where the vast majority of counties were split and a lot more young fellas exposed to inter county games. Cork was split in four as far as I know - but it’s been the only competition to have all 32 counties playing in it.

First off, why is the word professional in quotes? They are professional coaches, paid for their expertise and employed for that specific position...

Secondly, it is easy enough to tell kids to use both sides. Getting them to do it to the point where they are as good as what the dublin younger players are now is not so easy though. It takes prolonged effort from people with expertise in the field. If coaching was as easy as you suggest then there would be no one sided footballers and everyone would be able to kick scores from outside the 45 every time... If many of the absolute elite players in the country cant do that, then clearly it isnt that simple.

RoyalCelt · 13-08-2019 06:36PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What about Meath in 2010?

Funny the one game the ref wasn't in favour of dublin back then you lose. We all know the GAA wanted Dublin to keep winning so it's no surprise the refs by and large were in your pocket. Dublin vs Meath 2005 the ref was a joke too.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:38PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

In fairness Cork has hurling, rugby soccer

But looking at this list and excluding dual counties/occupied counties Kildare and Meath seem like the biggest underachievers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:40PM

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Funny the one game the ref wasn't in favour of dublin back then you lose. We all know the GAA wanted Dublin to keep winning so it's no surprise the refs by and large were in your pocket. Dublin vs Meath 2005 the ref was a joke too.

A lot of those five goals should have been disallowed for one reason or another I seem to remember! :eek:

bruschi · 13-08-2019 06:40PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think it has failed because it has not made real encroachments in the soccer and rugby heartlands.
Plus I do not see enough young fellas who's parents are from outside Ireland in Dublin teams/clubs?
Where have all the Pawel's, Li Wei's and Babangida's gone?

Dublin have just maintained thier areas v soccer and rugby in the capital not taken them on.

Don't think I'd agree fully. Whilst they may not have made full inroads into other traditional areas, they had done excellent work and have increased participation levels. Dublin will never have 100% participation levels, it's just not conceivable, which is why a rate per population is not a correct way to measure things. Clubs have grown massively in Dublin and retention rates are up too. That's success in my eyes.

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 06:43PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

One wonders why Ireland, Uruguay, Croatia, Sweden, Denmark bother to turn up for soccer internationals. Never mind Finland. Yet consistently in soccer we see results that belie population figures.

Kerry has the same population as Wicklow.
Cork has nearly 4 times the population as Kerry.
I'd like to see the correlation chart between population and All Irelands, because it doesn't seem to a strong relationship.

Cork also has 9 times the population of Monaghan.
If you want to talk about population discrepancies, Dublin is just the start of the conversation.

As was stated earlier, there is a critical mass at play there. If you have a population up in the millions, you will be better equipped to compete against a nation 10 times your size than if you have 100,000 and you comlete with a pick of 1 million... Croatia, although they have never actually won anything, have a high level. The point you are missing is croatia are more an exception rather than the rule.

Dubs tend to do this a lot. They pick an exception to the rule and say well what about these lads, thet are going well at x are they not? But obviously they are an exception that is bucking the trend and everyone cant be the exception can they?

As for population discrepancies, simple - offer lower populated counties the choice to amalgamate. If they choose not to then they are only effecting themselves. Split dublin in 2 then and you instantly have a much inproved championship, with no requirment for massive cuts to funding in dublin..

RoyalCelt · 13-08-2019 06:45PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

A lot of those five goals should have been disallowed for one reason or another I seem to remember! :eek:

I think if the disallowed goals were removed meath still would have won. Difference with Dublin was they were close games and the GAA clearly wanted Dublin to win.

yermanhimself · 13-08-2019 06:45PM

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)

The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)

This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:46PM

bruschi wrote: »

Don't think I'd agree fully. Whilst they may not have made full inroads into other traditional areas, they had done excellent work and have increased participation levels. Dublin will never have 100% participation levels, it's just not conceivable, which is why a rate per population is not a correct way to measure things. Clubs have grown massively in Dublin and retention rates are up too. That's success in my eyes.

I would like to see a more homogeneous mix of players though, not many exotic names on most pitches.
That will mean that the GAA in Dublin is in a healthy state and will have people of all backgrounds.
It is probably easier to do down the country where the GAA club is the focal point - not many other places to go!

odyssey06 · 13-08-2019 06:46PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In fairness Cork has hurling, rugby soccer
But looking at this list and excluding dual counties/occupied counties Kildare and Meath seem like the biggest underachievers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

Well that's the point. The raw population figures are only half the story. Dublin has soccer, rugby too.

Gachla · 13-08-2019 06:51PM

yermanhimself wrote: »

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)

The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)

This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

Money has made a huge difference. Here's a quote from a GDO who was invloved from when this all began:

"I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching.

I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

Also, do you have any explanation as to why Dublin increased titles across the board, winning 80 titles since 2005?

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:52PM

yermanhimself wrote: »

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)

The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)

This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

Never thought of that breakdown before frightening when you think if it how so few clubs backbone the Dubs.

When I think of it put a great manager into an underachieving county what happens it not only achieves what it should - it over achieves.

Paidi - Westmeath
Micko - Kildare, Laois, Wicklow
O'Mahony - Leitrim
Fitzy - Wexford
Harte - Tyrone
Gavin - Dublin
Boylan - Meath
Heffo - Dublin
O'Rourke - Monaghan
Cody - Kilkenny
Pete McGrath - Fermanagh

odyssey06 · 13-08-2019 06:56PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

As was stated earlier, there is a critical mass at play there. If you have a population up in the millions, you will be better equipped to compete against a nation 10 times your size than if you have 100,000 and you comlete with a pick of 1 million... Croatia, although they have never actually won anything, have a high level. The point you are missing is croatia are more an exception rather than the rule.
Dubs tend to do this a lot. They pick an exception to the rule and say well what about these lads, thet are going well at x are they not? But obviously they are an exception that is bucking the trend and everyone cant be the exception can they?

Croatia would have, if they only have to worry about one of the major soccer powers (by population) at a time - which would be the Dublin scenario. Ditto for Denmark, Sweden, Uruguay. In any given tournament, one of those teams is capable of beating one of the major powers.

There are so many exceptions in GAA they are the rule. If population was all that mattered Kerry would not have more All Irelands than Dublin and Cork combined. Yet Wicklow with the same population have none.
Whatever the critical mass is in the GAA, 100,000 versus 1 million is not it.

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 06:57PM

yermanhimself wrote: »

Money has nothing to do with developing players ( It has not worked for Kildare who have have pumped lots of money into paying managers)

The current group of Dublin players have been developed by some very small clubs in Dublin ( Ballymun Kickhams 6 , Raheny 2, Cuala 2, Clontarf 1, Parnells 1, etc) at least 5 of the team are sons of previous county players ( Rock, McCarthy, McCaffrey, Callaghan & Brogan)

The Management team are made of previous players ( Gavin, Darcy, Sherlock, Clarke, Byrne etc)

This same formula is also used by the present Kerry team and will lead to success in the future.

The development of this team began in the clubs and development squads led by previous county players giving their time and experience to kids of 8 years of age and upwards.

Success does bring rewards which are then pumped back into the clubs and coaches.

Hmm. Obviously not a fair point. Intercounty managers arent the ones who develop young players.

The paid professional coaches are the guys who developed those lads. That is pretty obvious..

If you dont think so then why dont you put forward a motion through your club to give all the money back to the gaa and the irish government? Because keeping the money and then crowing about it not being down to money, doesnt really hold much water...

Donnielighto · 13-08-2019 06:58PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are only codding yourself you still watch the games and still hunt for your free tickets - you are just letting others subsdise you.
A real protest would be not watching any gaelic games.

It is this your form of half nearly, maybe, sorta, kinda going or 'half' interested?
You either are or you are not.

I don't hunt and didn't say I did, I was offered one for last Saturday and tried to pass it on first. I like the sport but not the admin side and won't support it financially which is their bottom line and focus.

Anyway this is moving off topic.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 06:59PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Croatia would have, if they only have to worry about one of the major soccer powers (by population) at a time - which would be the Dublin scenario. Ditto for Denmark, Sweden, Uruguay. In any given tournament, one of those teams is capable of beating one of the major powers.

There are so many exceptions in GAA they are the rule. If population was all that mattered Kerry would not have more All Irelands than Dublin and Cork combined. Yet Wicklow with the same population have none.
Whatever the critical mass is in the GAA, 100,000 versus 1 million is not it.

Plus lets not forget the might of Dublin club football Kilmacud (Mannnion et al) were defeated by Mullinalaghta of Longford.
Vinne's were also defeated by Rathnew of Wicklow - kept Connolly to two points

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2019 07:00PM

Gachla wrote: »

I have suggestions but why put them forward to people who can't even admit there's a problem despite huge evidence to show that there is?

Ah, the "I have all the answers but i'm not telling you" trope. Good one.

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2019 07:01PM

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Funny the one game the ref wasn't in favour of dublin back then you lose. We all know the GAA wanted Dublin to keep winning so it's no surprise the refs by and large were in your pocket. Dublin vs Meath 2005 the ref was a joke too.

Right and by 2010 I clearly meant the Leinster final, or did you forget about that one?

Care to remind us of the officiating that day?

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 07:02PM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Croatia would have, if they only have to worry about one of the major soccer powers (by population) at a time - which would be the Dublin scenario. Ditto for Denmark, Sweden, Uruguay. In any given tournament, one of those teams is capable of beating one of the major powers.

There are so many exceptions in GAA they are the rule. If population was all that mattered Kerry would not have more All Irelands than Dublin and Cork combined. Yet Wicklow with the same population have none.
Whatever the critical mass is in the GAA, 100,000 versus 1 million is not it.

Sorry but they have won nothing, plain and simple. The point was made that these teams achieve above themselves as a mode of conparison. But they have not won anything. Denmark won a watered down euros in 1992 and it is still talked about. Is that what kerry are supposed to now accept as their lot? If so then whycouldnt dublin just accept their lot around the mid 2000s? Youcant have it every way.

Re the critical mass. These things are relative. 100,000 and well organised could probably compete with 6-700,000 not as well organised. But 1.3 million well organised and infinitely more funded is just a bridge too far.

Dyr · 13-08-2019 07:02PM

Gachla wrote: »

Money has made a huge difference. Here's a quote from a GDO who was invloved from when this all began:

"I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching.

I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

Also, do you have any explanation as to why Dublin increased titles across the board, winning 80 titles since 2005?

Late 90's? lol that's a crock of horse ****e, go back and watch inter county games from the late 90s, they look like a Junior B kick about in comparison to nearly any good team now, club or county. In both Hurling and Football.

Both games have improved immeasurably since then right across the board. F**k all to do with funding

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 07:03PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

I don't hunt and didn't say I did, I was offered one for last Saturday and tried to pass it on first. I like the sport but not the admin side and won't support it financially which is their bottom line and focus.

Anyway this is moving off topic.

You would swear it was weed you were getting.

Well as long as you do not inhale these GAA fumes you wlll be - grand- your'e still a supporter though!

If Dublin are ever split because of their dominance it will be interesting to see what kind of support the teams would get.
Not sure I will live to see it though - I think I would still go as the GAA are very fair to fans unlike other sports.

Gachla · 13-08-2019 07:03PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ah, the "I have all the answers but i'm not telling you" trope. Good one.

Trying to drag this down a rabbit hole?

Anyone come up with a valid reason as to why Dublin have improved standards in football, hurling, underage, club etc all at the same time?

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2019 07:05PM

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I think if the disallowed goals were removed meath still would have won. Difference with Dublin was they were close games and the GAA clearly wanted Dublin to win.

Janey if they wanted us to win why not just rig the games and stop footering about with the GDO cash.

Seems like a rather large conspiracy that hasn't yet to come out? so much so that I would think you were talking through your hat?

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 07:06PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Plus lets not forget the might of Dublin club football Kilmacud (Mannnion et al) were defeated by Mulinaughta
Vinne's were also defeated by Rathnew of Wicklow - kept Connolly to two points

Again, critical mass. Kilmacud dont have 1.3 million people, or 17 million extra in funding going their way. Even at that, these were viewed as shock results. Does everyone else simply have to make do with an odd shock result over the years and accept that as our lot?

Gachla · 13-08-2019 07:08PM

Bambi wrote: »

Late 90's? lol that's a crock of horse ****e, go back and watch inter county games from the late 90s, they look like a Junior B kick about in comparison to nearly any good team now, club or county. In both Hurling and Football.

Both games have improved immeasurably since then right across the board. F**k all to do with funding

The quote is from someone who's been involved in Dublin GAA since then. A highly respected and hugely experienced coach who has first hand knowledge of what we're discussing. Are you calling him a liar?

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