Lloyd England exposed was involved in 9/11 false flag event

Overheal · 12-08-2019 11:54PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Pentagon is a high security facility and very likely they used state of the art 24/7 cameras. No Tapes you guys can claim they hide nothing and that always the problem with conspiracies gaining access to new information. The man at the bottom can’t find out if government agencies are lying to us. But everyone can see there was seven cameras close enough to the crash site to record something on video. You think its unlikely but i can't be certain as you having not seen the footage.

Yes the state of the art in 2001 was still analog.

Dohnjoe · 13-08-2019 12:29AM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Pentagon is a high security facility and very likely they used state of the art 24/7 cameras. No Tapes you guys can claim they hide nothing and that always the problem with conspiracies gaining access to new information. The man at the bottom can’t find out if government agencies are lying to us. But everyone can see there was seven cameras close enough to the crash site to record something on video. You think its unlikely but i can't be certain as you, having not seen the footage.

You must have incredible doubt about much of recorded human history, there's no CCTV footage of the battle of Carthage, how do we know it wasn't just the authorities telling us that, how can people just swallow that narrative with all that worthless corroborating evidence without closed circuit TV?

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 04:31AM

Overheal wrote: »

Yes the state of the art in 2001 was still analog.

I did some searching on the Skeptic forums and they claim the FBI recieved from the DOD

16 video surveillance tapes
1 digital CCTV system hard drive (undetermined number of videos).

What on those tapes never been seen.

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 04:53AM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You must have incredible doubt about much of recorded human history, there's no CCTV footage of the battle of Carthage, how do we know it wasn't just the authorities telling us that, how can people just swallow that narrative with all that worthless corroborating evidence without closed circuit TV?

I have doubts when there conflicting evidence.

Moon landings i don't have doubts,because it just online flakes who are accusing the US government of covering up there. There nobody inside Nasa claiming we never went. The evidence we never went weak also

9/11 and JFK there plenty of evidence the official story is not true. If was just truthers claiming a 9/11 cover up you be correct to criticise. We know thats not true and many FBI agents have revealed to newspapers over the years, they were told by their superiors to stop investigating Saudi government involvement. There no doubt in my mind the White house in 2002 wanted to crush a real investigation of the 9/11 attacks. If you not allowed to follow leads then you will never going to find the truth.

There clear evidence of state involvement - Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
What less clear- is how involved was the CIA and others in the planning stages of the attack? There plenty of evidence of foreknowledge, and then you end up in dark space from there- were they involved in planting bombs in buildings before the attack?

3000 + Architects and engineers who are willing to stick their neck out do claim NIST report is not accurate. If one engineer claimed your house was unstable would you ignore him? I respect them more then you do, because i have seen NIST making false statements on video. I wonder why they doing it?

smurfjed · 13-08-2019 06:55AM

@Cheerful Spring2.

We are approaching the 18th anniversary of this event, if you accept that this was an internal US event created by their own forces, why hasn't it happened again? Think of the calamity that they could have caused by recreating the event? Or is it a case that the little rule that stops us bringing box cutters onto flights or the change in passenger mentality regarding hijacking was effective?

Dohnjoe · 13-08-2019 09:19AM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I have doubts when there conflicting evidence.

What's the conflicting evidence?

A random helicopter near a helipad station. There's no mystery about this event or gap that needs to be explained by a helicopter. It's completely irrelevant.

Thousands upon thousands of extremely dedicated people have been flinging mud, casting doubt, throwing pseudo-science, disinformation and everything but the kitchen sink at this event for well over a decade and a half. As far as proper alternative theories go, they have produced zero.

The original established version of events in 2001, stands exactly as it has, unchanged. Flight 77 flew into the Pentagon. The truth has a habit of being consistent.

banie01 · 13-08-2019 12:15PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I have doubts when there conflicting evidence.

As Dohnjoe has already said, I feel I can't let this pass without adding though.

What conflicting evidence?
There is no evidence, and by that I mean actual physical evidence or credible and supported statements that are significantly at odds with what the report lays out as the sequence of events.

The inability of you, or of other "truthers" to grasp the evidence, to understand it or indeed to cogently rebutt those pieces of evidence you feel are problematic...
Well that's not indicative of an issue with the evidence, the reports or their conclusions!
It's far more indicative of a want of understanding and an overinflated belief in one's own investigative prowess.

Dohnjoe · 13-08-2019 12:30PM

Yup, they are never building a case, only ever trying to deconstruct one, by dumpster diving for irrelevant scraps of anything that can cast doubt on it

Also the false skepticism is hilarious, e.g. "oh those moon landing hoaxers are idiots" - strange, they use precisely the same faulty logic "proof by denial" tricks and techniques that 911 conspiracy theorists use

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 02:21PM

banie01 wrote: »

As Dohnjoe has already said, I feel I can't let this pass without adding though.

What conflicting evidence?
There is no evidence, and by that I mean actual physical evidence or credible and supported statements that are significantly at odds with what the report lays out as the sequence of events.

The inability of you, or of other "truthers" to grasp the evidence, to understand it or indeed to cogently rebutt those pieces of evidence you feel are problematic...
Well that's not indicative of an issue with the evidence, the reports or their conclusions!
It's far more indicative of a want of understanding and an overinflated belief in one's own investigative prowess.

To get you started. Daniel Hopsicker was an investigative journalist who took some time to investigate Mohammed Atta Al Qaeda cell. He talked to people who saw them, he met flight instructors, Talked with ATTA American girlfriend also. He discovered the airports the 9/11 hijackers trained at to fly were basically front companies for Saudi Intelligence and CIA.

His wikipedia account.
Hopsicker is the publisher of The Mad Cow Morning News. Based in Venice, Florida, he has carried out a number of investigations, notably exposing Mohammad Atta - whose observed lifestyle does not fit well with the official narrative that he was a radical Moslem.

He produced a fantastic documentry and its free to watch online today. None of you guys have watched it of course. You stuck in this bubble of thinking there no alternative information available online.

banie01 · 13-08-2019 02:25PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

To get you started. Daniel Hopsicker was an investigative journalist who inverstigated Mohammed Atta Al Qaeda cell. He talked to people who saw them, he met flight instructors, Talked with ATTA American girlfriend also. He discovered the airports the 9/11 hijackers trained at to fly were basically front companies for Saudi Intelligence and CIA.

His wikipedia account.
Hopsicker is the publisher of The Mad Cow Morning News. Based in Venice, Florida, he has carried out a number of investigations, notably exposing Mohammad Atta - whose observed lifestyle does not fit well with the official narrative that he was a radical Moslem.

He produced a fantastic documentry and its free to watch online today. None of you guys have watched it of course. You stuck in this bubble of thinking there no alternative information available online.

I quite unironically refer you to reread and heed the 2nd paragraph of my post which you so helpfully quoted.

Am I now to assume that we are in for the usual bout of CS link and text dumps?

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 02:27PM

banie01 wrote: »

I quite unironically refer you to reread and heed the 2nd paragraph of my post which you so helpfully quoted.

Am I now to assume that we are in for the usual bout of CS link and text dumps?

You saying there no evidence. And just produced it a video documentry. You guys are too lazy to watch it, yet will keep on saying there no conflicting evidence.

The Nal · 13-08-2019 02:37PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You saying there no evidence. And just produced it a video documentry. You guys are too lazy to watch it, yet will keep on saying there no conflicting evidence.

I'd say the chances that you have watched it are slim. Very slim.

You have form with citing documentaries and books that you haven't read or watched as evidence.

But prove us wrong. Give us a quick run down of the documentary please?

smurfjed · 13-08-2019 02:42PM

He discovered the airports the 9/11 hijackers trained at to fly were basically front companies for Saudi Intelligence and CIA.

So the Saudis and CIA owned the airports and trained these guys, surely they could have done this at a more obscure location?

banie01 · 13-08-2019 02:44PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You saying there no evidence. And just produced it a video documentry. You guys are too lazy to watch it, yet will keep on saying there no conflicting evidence.

Your want of understanding is quite clearly showing CS.
Calling posters lazy, is quite insulting.
Many of us have spent a lot of time and energy researching this incidents, often in the hope of cracking a conspiracy...
We have yet to manage it however, and please go back again read paragraph 2 and understand that evidence isn't walls of text, videos, or ms Paint blobs.

It's understanding the science, presenting validated alternatives, interpreting and understanding the physical evidence to confirm or support a thesis, forming a valid and cogent thesis based upon everything to hand that doesn't require that vast amounts of actual evidence and research be completely ignored to allow be believable

So how about this.
You toddle off to your research bunker, and proceed to refute and rebutt every single piece of evidence that led to the report committee conclusions.

Because only when that evidence is deemed and proven invalid does any other thesis become worthy of consideration or investigation

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 02:46PM

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-fbi-is-keeping-80000-secret-files-on-the-saudis-and-911

Just google it, you find a treasure trove of information. 80,000 files all still classified.

A former Republican member of the 9/11 Commission alleged Thursday that there was “clear evidence” of support for the hijackers from Saudi officials.

The still-secret files speak to one of the strangest and most enduring mysteries of the 9/11 attacks. Why did the Saudi occupants of a posh house in gated community in Sarasota, Florida, suddenly vanish in the two weeks prior to the attacks? And had they been in touch with the leader of the operation, Mohamed Atta, and two of his co-conspirators?

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 03:07PM

smurfjed wrote: »

So the Saudis and CIA owned the airports and trained these guys, surely they could have done this at a more obscure location?

Offical media outlets in the US are useless entities, they backed off, and did not keep digging to find these intelligence connections. Same happened with Epstein a Miami based Journalist would not give it up and she kept digging and eventually when the evidence mounting Epstein got off lightly, the FBI went after Epstein again. Official media was silent for most part about Epstein for a decade.

The 9/11 Hijackers were taking fly lessons at obscure airports. Official media did not investigate the men who owned the schools. Daniel Hopsicker started asking real questions and starting talking to flight instructors in Florida and learned the fly school Huffman Aviation is not what it appearances to be.

Overheal · 13-08-2019 03:10PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You saying there no evidence. And just produced it a video documentry. You guys are too lazy to watch it, yet will keep on saying there no conflicting evidence.

A documentary isn’t evidence.

smurfjed · 13-08-2019 03:18PM

One of the things that you need to understand about the Saudi culture is that they always give money to the poor or needy, apart from the fact that its required in Islam and is called Zakat, the ruling family have since the days of King Abdulaziz have supported requests from people. It was extremely common for people to go see a Prince/Princess/Ambassador and ask for help and walk out with a lot of money no questions asked.

But that was then, not now, these days as everything is centralised, if people deposit more than $10,000 cash in their banks without a legitimate source, the police will ask questions.

Also, give me one good or even a bad reason why the Saudi government would want to destroy its relationship with the USA?

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 03:19PM

Overheal wrote: »

A documentary isn’t evidence.

Its investigative 'real-life documentry piece. It not imaginary, he interviewed multiple people who witnesseed the events before 9/11. They have lot to say that contradicts the official narrative. He even spoke with another journalist, who worked for a mainstream paper, he too was troubled, many of the suspcious leads were not investigated by the FBI.

Overheal · 13-08-2019 03:27PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

The 9/11 Hijackers were taking fly lessons at obscure airports. Official media [???] did not investigate the men who owned the schools. Daniel Hopsicker started asking real questions and starting talking to flight instructors in Florida and learned the fly school Huffman Aviation is not what it appearances to be.

“As for the death threats, Dekkers says they stopped for the most part when he spoke out shortly after the attacks and told his story.

"The public saw and felt immediately I had nothing to do with it.," he says.

But Dekkers’ outspoken views on Muslims after 9/11 and his refusal to deal with them even to this day may have made him a target, he says.

Dekkers was involved in a helicopter crash in 2002 which he calls "suspicious." He says a fuel line safety wire was clipped, allowing fuel to spew out of the tank.

"I think it was somebody who was offended with my outspoken words on TV, 'I don't deal with Muslims anymore,'" Dekkers said. “I was very scared back then, I didn't know what to expect."”

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/911-Flight-School-Owner-The-last-10-Years-Have-Been-Bad.html

He’s been interviewed and even spoke out very early on in spite of credible death threats. He and the school were under investigation in less than 24 hours after the event.

Overheal · 13-08-2019 03:32PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Its investigative 'real-life documentry piece. It not imaginary, he interviewed multiple people who witnesseed the events before 9/11. They have lot to say that contradicts the official narrative. He even spoke with another journalist, who worked for a mainstream paper, he too was troubled, many of the suspcious leads were not investigated by the FBI.

Gemma used to work for a real paper too, that doesn’t mean you’re inherently credible. Nut jobs can get fired from reputable agencies.

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 03:36PM

smurfjed wrote: »

One of the things that you need to understand about the Saudi culture is that they always give money to the poor or needy, apart from the fact that its required in Islam and is called Zakat, the ruling family have since the days of King Abdulaziz have supported requests from people. It was extremely common for people to go see a Prince/Princess/Ambassador and ask for help and walk out with a lot of money no questions asked.

But that was then, not now, these days as everything is centralised, if people deposit more than $10,000 cash in their banks without a legitimate source, the police will ask questions.

Also, give me one good or even a bad reason why the Saudi government would want to destroy its relationship with the USA?

We know from the watered down classified 28 pages of the 9/11 commission, that took 15 years to be declassified by the way- President Obama was against it release. Hijackers were meeting Saudi Intelligence officers and Saudi consular officials pre 9/11- they met in hotels and restaurants in Los Angeles and elsewhere. We even know large sum of money was handed over to one of saudi agents to be passed off to a 9/11 cell. This money was transfrered from Prince Bandar wife bank account to Osama Bassnan ( Saudi agent) bank account.

Prince Bandar is one of most high ranking officials in the Saudi Government and after 9/11 he was named Saudi chief of Intelligence So why was his wife passing money to Al Qeada who were planning an attack on America? Prince Bandar was the Saudi- US ambassador with a residence in Washington and close friends with President Bush father. He also had ties to US intelligence and US establishment.

Dohnjoe · 13-08-2019 03:40PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Its investigative 'real-life documentry piece. It not imaginary, he interviewed multiple people who witnesseed the events before 9/11. They have lot to say that contradicts the official narrative. He even spoke with another journalist, who worked for a mainstream paper, he too was troubled, many of the suspcious leads were not investigated by the FBI.

Again this has been explained to you many, many times

The only grey area of this whole thing is the Saudi link. It's possible other people in Saudi knew of the attack. Since a third of the Saudi population works for the government it's possible some of these people were linked to the government or were officials.

To date, there is no evidence that the Saudi leadership was involved

That's it.

Nope, doesn't matter, it has to be a conspiracy, and you will use any grey area as a springboard to make ridiculous absurd leaps, suddenly Joe Biden is involved or Larry Silverstein. A mountain of evidence can't convince you it's not a conspiracy, but one vague second-hand telephone call can.

There will be a thousand pieces of corroborated evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, you'll ignore it all, yet you'll immediately swallow some conspiracy blog that has literally no evidence

This is because you have no interest in the truth, only in the conspiracy and as such no objectivity on the subject

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 04:00PM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Again this has been explained to you many, many times

The only grey area of this whole thing is the Saudi link. It's possible other people in Saudi knew of the attack. Since a third of the Saudi population works for the government it's possible some of these people were linked to the government or were officials.

To date, there is no evidence that the Saudi leadership was involved

That's it.

Nope, doesn't matter, it has to be a conspiracy, and you will use any grey area as a springboard to make ridiculous absurd leaps, suddenly Joe Biden is involved or Larry Silverstein. A mountain of evidence can't convince you it's not a conspiracy, but one vague second-hand telephone call can.

There will be a thousand pieces of corroborated evidence that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, you'll ignore it all, yet you'll immediately swallow some conspiracy blog that has literally no evidence

This is because you have no interest in the truth, only in the conspiracy and as such no objectivity on the subject

Not explained one bit. The official US narrative least out there in pubic is 19 men travelled to Afghanistan and were recruited to carry out this attack. Ask any casual observer they tell you Al Qaeda did the attack. They did on there own with no help and Bin Laden organised the entire event. Of course factually incorrect. Saudi link is not the only grey area.

Prince Bandar is not some low ranked official, he is the leadership. He was appointed to be the Saudi chief of intelligence after 9/11. Was his wife questioned by the FBI when it established she was sending money to faciliate an attack on 9/11? FBI Pentbom agents said all leads were shut down due to pressure from the White House, clear obstruction of justice. Bush and his cronies made it very difficult to investigate 9/11 when they are introducing bills like the 'patriot act, making citizens anti American if they questioned the official narrative. It was like the Gestepo took over in 2001.

Dohnjoe · 13-08-2019 04:05PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Not explained one bit.

It's perfectly explained, you just reject information that doesn't point to some vague unspecified conspiracy

When shown a dozen sources on the speed of an airliner you rejected them in favor of one. This shows how your mind works

You are incapable of processing information on this. It's easy to prove. We can just ask for your version of events, what really happened - and you can't respond. No one in the conspiracy community can. After 18 years.

There is literally more evidence for Bigfoot

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 04:10PM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It's perfectly explained, you just reject information that doesn't point to some vague unspecified conspiracy

When shown a dozen sources on the speed of an airliner you rejected them in favor of one. This shows how your mind works

You are incapable of processing information on this. It's easy to prove. We can just ask for your version of events, what really happened - and you can't respond. No one in the conspiracy community can. After 18 years.

There is literally more evidence for Bigfoot

FBI agents involved in the Pentbom 9/11 investigation made these claims. Posted numerous statements from them here ( names were provided) and of course ignored. You seem to think you know more about 9/11 then they do.

13-08-2019 04:14PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You seem to think you know more about 9/11 then they do.

The list of people you pretend to be more knowledgeable than is extensive and includes 1000s of engineers who did peer reviewed studies.

Remember how you made an absolute show of yourself when you pretended to be able to do math and understand physics?

Dohnjoe · 13-08-2019 04:15PM

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

FBI agents involved in the Pentbom 9/11 investigation made these claims. Posted numerous statements from them here ( names were provided) and of course ignored. You seem to think you know more about 9/11 then they do.

Cool, did they claim that Larry Silverstein was involved? did they claim there was secret explosives in the towers? did they claim that a missile struck the Pentagon?

You cannot grasp the fact some people in an investigation may have differences of opinion. You cannot grasp the concept of the context of those differences. You just assume that because it exists, giant leap time, the whole thing was a conspiracy involving secret silent bombs in the buildings and Jews and Saudis working together

smurfjed · 13-08-2019 04:16PM

So why was his wife passing money to Al Qeada who were planning an attack on America?

Read what I wrote above and you might understand the concept of helping people. The idea of zakat may not agree with your narrative, but its the reality.

Cheerful Spring2 · 13-08-2019 04:29PM

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Cool, did they claim that Larry Silverstein was involved? did they claim there was secret explosives in the towers? did they claim that a missile struck the Pentagon?

You cannot grasp the fact some people in an investigation may have differences of opinion. You cannot grasp the concept of the context of those differences. You just assume that because it exists, giant leap time, the whole thing was a conspiracy involving secret silent bombs in the buildings and Jews and Saudis working together

No.

The FBI team found plenty of evidence of Saudi state involvement. Evidence ignored by the white house and the official mainstream news ( establishment news in 2001)

Even the FBI pentbom leading agent told a newpaper the 28 pages was watered down for public consumption and they had found credible evidence linking Saudi Government to the 9/11 attack. He said most of his team agreed with him, but order was given and his hands were tied and investigation ended.

FBI was not looking for people who blew up buildings. At the beginning they were tasked with finding out who supported the network of cells inside the United States and were the money came from to carry out this operation. They unearthed lot of stuff that still kept secret to this day and who knows were it would lead if they were allowed to kept digging.

We stuck in situation in 2019 FBI has 80, 000 pages classified pages- Saudi links to 9/11, not yet released #

The CIA and NSA unknown how many files they have in secret vault somewhere.

Lloyd England exposed was involved in 9/11 false flag event

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