The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

bruschi · 13-08-2019 12:22PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ok I will answer this jsut because Dublin keep the average age of the panel down over the years does not equate to the maintance of standards.

Conor McHugh is a prime example of this he is 25 - hanging around the squad on the fringes for years.
He has never really 'done it' at senior level.
Although the average age of players has been maintained the core of players who play regularly is the same - the same faces are on the bench Kevin Mc, MDM, Philly, Costello, EOG etc

All the above stats were starting 15. Cluxton will be replaced and that will also drastically reduce the average age.

All the subs players you mention are also player who have started AI finals for Dublin, except 25 year old Costello who has come on in the last 4 finals. Meaning those players have been replaced.

There are plenty of Dublin players who hung around the fringes for years and never did it but still got medals. the main point being that their first 15 has consistently had an addition or 2 each year and the player replaced is then a sub before eventually retiring. There are not many teams who end up with POTY of multiple all stars sitting on the bench, sometimes an unused sub too.

In 2016 Kevin McMenamon, Paul Flynn, Bernard Brogan and Diarmuid Connolly started. The following year they were replaced by Con O Callaghan,
Paul Mannion, Paddy Andrews and Eoghan O Gara. The following year in 2018 O Gara and Andrews were replaced by Scully and Howard. Thats all they need to do. Keep your core, replace the edges, then the core changes and keep the cycle going. The team is not relying on the same main players it was in 2011 or 13. And as the younger players from then grow, they are becoming the core and leaders.

Its a fantastic position to be in and from evidence on previous 9 years fo doing this, I dont see any reason as to why people think this will stop this year.

Fann Linn · 13-08-2019 12:22PM

JeffKenna wrote: »

But Leinster counties play in Croke Park for financial reasons, something the Dublin County board don't have to worry about.

Well then ye can't be complaining then if Dublin are playing too often in Croker. Its an advantage that suits all.

gaffer91 · 13-08-2019 12:24PM

I'm sure people don't have the time or the inclination to go back and wade through the 60+ "Changes in the GAA forum" thread but if you did, you'd see most of the pro- Dublin arguments claiming that the financial doping makes no difference to success have been buried there time and again. That doesn't stop posters churning out the same stuff over and over in a slightly rehashed way though.

This thread has a lot more traction than the stickied one so I'll just copy and paste from a post I made there a few weeks back. Covers most of the important points I like to think.

There's a tendency among the Dubs who claim the current championship is a level playing field to try to deny and obfuscate and lead things off on tangents. It's important to just bring things back to basics and narrow the argument down to the key facts which are as follows:

1. Dublin are over- funded relative to every other county. This funding helps them to win games and titles they wouldn't otherwise win.

2. The games development funding does help the senior side- people age so money spent 15 years ago on development squads etc can be considered a down payment for today. The extra central funding saves Dublin from having to spend their own money on this. Therefore freeing up more funds to spend on their senior sides. Development funds also help to develop elite players at club level, which will generally raise the standard of football played in a county and also bring a select few up to inter- county level.

3. Even accounting for the central funding, Dublin get millions more from their sponsorship partners and from the government. The sponsorship money should be distributed among all counties (this goes for every county, not just Dublin).

4. Dublin have other advantages as well- most obviously population and playing all consequential games at home. Just because they historically did not take full value from these advantages doesn't mean they weren't unfair.

5. Dublin's success is not down to volunteerism or a "golden generation" or any other nonsense. There are new players coming through all the time- take Con O'Callaghan and Brian Howard who were nowhere to be seen at the start of this run and are now crucial. The average age of the starting team has been fairly stagnant- don't be sucked in by arguments about the average age of the squad which is a less accurate reflection. A few years ago, people said it was over when Bernard Brogan and Connolly retired, now it's when Cluxton and Cooper retire. It's laughable- Dublin will continue to dominate no matter what.

6. The Leinster championship is a very useful learning point- the All Ireland series is well on the way to heading the same way as it in terms of being an uncompetitive shambles. All because of Dublin's financial doping and other unfair advantages.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 12:24PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Of course it doesnt. It is just diversionary tactics. There was a chart posted earlier in the thread that illustrated the number of titles dublin had won pre-financial doping and then post financial doping. Obviously enough, it was fairly telling.
The response to it was that they didnt like the title and that the colours used in it were mayo colours. Therefore the chart is biased...That is what you are dealing with...
To my mind, that kind of stuff should be classed as trolling and treated accordingly - I dont see how it can be classed as anything else. It is totally disingenuous and designed to stifle the discussion and drag it down.

I see you cherry picked my post and failed to mention the exceptional u12 dublin sides that played each other in 2005

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/

But the bit you decided to highlight was my comment about the Mayo colours.
That is some 'Mayo Magic' alright :rolleyes:

JeffKenna · 13-08-2019 12:26PM

Fann Linn wrote: »

Well then ye can't be complaining then if Dublin are playing too often in Croker. Its an advantage that suits all.

But can you not see this is the issue. Other counties are completely under funded and have to give up that advantage yet Dublin have received millions upon millions extra.

bruschi · 13-08-2019 12:28PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I am making a number of inter-related points

(1) The core of this team only came together in 2015, just as the core of the great Kerry team only came together in 1978

(2) Dublin's rate of replenishment is below that of their competitors

(3) Focussing on the first team only is misleading because of the nature of the 20-man game. It is actually one of Jim Gavin's tactics to put the young player in from the start as with six replacements they can be replaced if something goes wrong. Better to bring on the older player near the end for experience if in trouble, just as Mayo tried to copy with Andy Moran. So your statistics, while accurate, just aren't relevant.

(4) The average age of the Dublin squad will decrease over the next few years as Cluxton, MacAuley, O'Carroll, Connolly, Brogan, O'Gara, MacManamon, McMahon etc. all retire, but that will mean that the team becomes less effective rather than more effective. The core of 8-10 that I mentioned still have five or six years left, but the likes of Conor McHugh, Colm Basquel, Andrew McGowan etc. just aren't showing enough that they can even fill reliable places on the bench. A 32-year old Dean Rock could be like Andy Moran, coming on the field when the game is already lost because those coming behind aren't good enough.

again, I asked you to point out where I was wrong. I provided stats. If they are wrong, tell me.

Squad average ages. Ok. Average age for the players used, including the bench in All Ireland finals from 2011-2018
2011- 25.47
2013 - 25.4
2015 - 26.82
2016 - 27.8
2017 - 27.4
2018 - 27.7

Hardly earth shattering ages that drastically push it over the edge of a team going past its prime.

The core came together in 2015. 4 seasons ago. And half of the core you mention have another 4 years before they hit 30.

And again, I genuinely dont understand why Dublin fans are running down their up and coming squads. Many of the player you mention that may retire, Brogan, Connolly, O Gara in particular have had little or nothing to do with this years run. Replacing them is hardly going to matter consider they are already effectively replaced.

Why would Dublin replenish their All Ireland winning team at a greater rate than other counties? That would make no sense. they only need to change up a couple of players each year, which they have consistently done and have not deteriorated by doing so.

Donnielighto · 13-08-2019 12:29PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I get that but my point was missed as usual - initially it was a massive disadvantage for Dublin playing in Croke park.
The better teams preferred it.
I lost count of the times I used to say great chance against Kerry in a tight Parnell - but Croke Park will suit Kerry - better players bigger pitch.

None of that is remembered..... by detractors like yourself which is very convenient.

Bigger pitches suits better teams though. Get good and it suits ya.

Dyr · 13-08-2019 12:31PM

Would we be hearing this guff if the Yerras were going for 5 in a row?

Would we f**k, its very edifying

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2019 12:31PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

Yup, I was raised on it. But the president of the organisation said I wasn't a true fan of my county for wanting to see the biggest sporting event in the world last year.

Also it's no effort to stream games, at all.

Amazing!

That's got to be the equivalent of the "I don't like the LOI cos I hate the FAI" argument for GAA people.

JeffKenna · 13-08-2019 12:34PM

gaffer91 wrote: »

3. Even accounting for the central funding, Dublin get millions more from their sponsorship partners and from the government. The sponsorship money should be distributed among all counties (this goes for every county, not just Dublin).

Can I just point out that the money Dublin receives from sponsorship has a direct correlation to the money it receives from development funding. Development funding has improved the Senior team and therefore Dublin's ability to gain sponsorship income.

MayoAreMagic · 13-08-2019 12:37PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I see you cherry picked my post and failed to mention the exceptional u12 dublin sides that played each other in 2005

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/

But the bit you decided to highlight was my comment about the Mayo colours.
That is some 'Mayo Magic' alright :rolleyes:

Has it not occurred to you that without the level of professional coaching afforded to nobody else, these u12s wouldnt have developed into what they did? They werent born that good. They are however, smack bang in the line of the investment. Their current level only underlines how effective it has been.

Your issue is you are too emotionally involved with the individuals, to realise the reality - those lads dont buck the trend, they are the trend.

LeinsterDub · 13-08-2019 12:37PM

Why don't the other counties simply reallocate the funding away from Dublin?

Dyr · 13-08-2019 12:38PM

I think that GAA revenue generated by a county should remain within a county, that should ensure that Dublin will get an even bigger bite of the pie. Sick of us bankrolling the rest of the country TBH. Bailing out Mayo, building Follys in Cork.

Once we do the same with taxation, there'll be a lot of coughs substantially softened outside the Pale

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 12:39PM

bruschi wrote: »

All the above stats were starting 15. Cluxton will be replaced and that will also drastically reduce the average age.

And Comerford is going to magically become the new Cluxton is he?
There is bound to be a drop in standard there.
Cluxton is the flucrum of Dublin's tactics - that has been well documented

All the subs players you mention are also player who have started AI finals for Dublin, except 25 year old Costello who has come on in the last 4 finals. Meaning those players have been replaced.

The majority of that bench have been there for years Dublin are STILL dependent on them whether they start the game or not

There are plenty of Dublin players who hung around the fringes for years and never did it but still got medals. the main point being that their first 15 has consistently had an addition or 2 each year and the player replaced is then a sub before eventually retiring. There are not many teams who end up with POTY of multiple all stars sitting on the bench, sometimes an unused sub too.

I am convinced that the Dublin starting 15 is strong but the overall panel has got weaker - where is the new Dublin bench? Bugler is one of the few I have seen.

In 2016 Kevin McMenamon, Paul Flynn, Bernard Brogan and Diarmuid Connolly started. The following year they were replaced by Con O Callaghan,
Paul Mannion, Paddy Andrews and Eoghan O Gara. The following year in 2018 O Gara and Andrews were replaced by Scully and Howard. Thats all they need to do. Keep your core, replace the edges, then the core changes and keep the cycle going. The team is not relying on the same main players it was in 2011 or 13. And as the younger players from then grow, they are becoming the core and leaders.

Again, I would argue those 'edges' are getting more diluted - resulting in a weakened core over time.

Its a fantastic position to be in and from evidence on previous 9 years fo doing this, I dont see any reason as to why people think this will stop this year.

I don't think it will stop until the current core are gone - because I have not see the same quality of player coming through as in previous years.
That Dublin team that won the last u21 final 2017 v Galway was exceptional

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0429/871348-dubs-win-last-u21/

Dublin: E Comerford; D Byrne, C O’Shea, E Murchan; D Monaghan, S McMahon, C Murphy; A Foley, B Howard (0-01); T Fox, A Byrne (1-00), G O’Reilly (0-03); C Basquel (0-02), C O’Callaghan (1-03, 0-02f), D O’Brien (0-02).

There is just not the same level of quality coming through at the moment.

JeffKenna · 13-08-2019 12:41PM

Bambi wrote: »

I think that GAA revenue generated by a county should remain within a county, that should ensure that Dublin will get an even bigger bite of the pie. Sick of us bankrolling the rest of the country TBH. Bailing out Mayo, building Follys in Cork.

Once we do the same with taxation, there'll be a lot of coughs substantially softened outside the Pale

But sur it was the rest of the country built and paid for Dublin's home ground!

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 12:42PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Has it not occurred to you that without the level of professional coaching afforded to nobody else, these u12s wouldnt have developed into what they did? They werent born that good. They are however, smack bang in the line of the investment. Their current level only underlines how effective it has been.

Your issue is you are too emotionally involved with the individuals, to realise the reality - those lads dont buck the trend, they are the trend.

They are an exceptional core group of players - if those Dublin u12 players (2005) were moved to Mayo (and did not emigrate) Mayo would have a few all-ireland's won
Surely Mayo's coaching would not be that poor to 'ruin' them?
Or are you saying that Mayo GAA does not know how to coach players?

Augme · 13-08-2019 12:45PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Augme wrote: »

The problem is this is the kind of attitude people are up against when trying to have a rationale debate about the situation.

At some point GAA will have to do something, until then the best thing to donas a GAA is switch off and not watch to help quicken the process.

I bet you will still be glued to the final though - willing Kerry on against the evil blue empire....

I've no interest in watching Dublin lose though. If anything it's actually better they win as it will just help confirm the domination they have and advantages and again will only help people realise something needs to change. If Kerry win it will stop that, however it will only be a speedbump along the way to Dublin domination as things stand.

Dyr · 13-08-2019 12:48PM

JeffKenna wrote: »

But sur it was the rest of the country built and paid for Dublin's home ground!

With the change yiz found down the back of the couch in the good room? Parnell is fairly run down. Could do with being spruced up tbh.

Donnielighto · 13-08-2019 12:51PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Amazing!

That's got to be the equivalent of the "I don't like the LOI cos I hate the FAI" argument for GAA people.

No, it's I don't support it and it's valid as seen by the cronyism and protectionist attitude when issues came up for FAI governance earlier this year.

Donnielighto · 13-08-2019 12:52PM

Bambi wrote: »

Would we be hearing this guff if the Yerras were going for 5 in a row?

Would we f**k, its very edifying

Probably yes but it hasn't happened so just spitballing really.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 12:57PM

Bambi wrote: »

With the change yiz found down the back of the couch in the good room? Parnell is fairly run down. Could do with being spruced up tbh.

Does Parnell still have the same seats from when the Cusack was done up?
That is what Dubs do they make do - no waste.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 12:59PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

Probably yes but it hasn't happened so just spitballing really.

No ya wouldn't not to the same extent - this is an urban rural thing as well.

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 01:05PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

No, it's I don't support it and it's valid as seen by the cronyism and protectionist attitude when issues came up for FAI governance earlier this year.

You are only codding yourself you still watch the games and still hunt for your free tickets - you are just letting others subsdise you.
A real protest would be not watching any gaelic games.

It is this your form of half nearly, maybe, sorta, kinda going or 'half' interested?
You either are or you are not.

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2019 01:05PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

No, it's I don't support it and it's valid as seen by the cronyism and protectionist attitude when issues came up for FAI governance earlier this year.

But when the FAI is sorted out you will of course darken the door of your local club, yeah?

Until then you're happy enough watching foreign teams an d pumping money into foreign associations?

Are you even trying anymore?

LastLagoon · 13-08-2019 01:06PM

How many of the Dublin senior team actually work a real job? Guarantee not near as many as any of their main rivals. Shamateurism

The high horse brigade · 13-08-2019 01:07PM

I think the dubs should fundraise to do up Parnell park at their own expense like the other counties have to and play all their home games there at reduced attendance. My local club is struggling and doing everything they can to get 55k together to improve their facilities

gormdubhgorm · 13-08-2019 01:08PM

Donnielighto wrote: »

Bigger pitches suits better teams though. Get good and it suits ya.

But Dublin were not always 'good' - why was it grand when Dublin were loosing in CP most of the time?
Now suddenly it is not for a cohort - 60% at the last vote in congress - voted to keep Dublin in CP.

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2019 01:11PM

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I think the dubs should fundraise to do up Parnell park at their own expense like the other counties have to and play all their home games there at reduced attendance. My local club is struggling and doing everything they can to get 55k together to improve their facilities

Surely they can apply for grants? Or do they not know how?

Why would we waste money to spruce up a stdiumn to incure debt and then ensure we get less people through the gates? Is that not the most moronic thing ever spouted on the GAA fora? Also can we not use our billions in sponsorship to do it if we were so inclined?

Remember we tried to buy a plot of land in Templeogue for this exact reason? Or are you just throwing out unfounded nonsense?

What do you people even want anymore other than Dublin to be "less good".

blanch152 · 13-08-2019 01:12PM

bruschi wrote: »

again, I asked you to point out where I was wrong. I provided stats. If they are wrong, tell me.

Squad average ages. Ok. Average age for the players used, including the bench in All Ireland finals from 2011-2018
2011- 25.47
2013 - 25.4
2015 - 26.82
2016 - 27.8
2017 - 27.4
2018 - 27.7

Hardly earth shattering ages that drastically push it over the edge of a team going past its prime.

The core came together in 2015. 4 seasons ago. And half of the core you mention have another 4 years before they hit 30.

And again, I genuinely dont understand why Dublin fans are running down their up and coming squads. Many of the player you mention that may retire, Brogan, Connolly, O Gara in particular have had little or nothing to do with this years run. Replacing them is hardly going to matter consider they are already effectively replaced.

Why would Dublin replenish their All Ireland winning team at a greater rate than other counties? That would make no sense. they only need to change up a couple of players each year, which they have consistently done and have not deteriorated by doing so.

Accuracy of statistics does not imply relevance.

If I characterised your statistics as wrong then I apologise, but I will not apologise for calling them irrelevant. Starting teams in one match are not of any great import in comparing squad development over time.

As for the rate of replacement, what happened Kerry suddenly in 1986 is likely to happen Dublin in the future if their rate of replacement is below that of their competitors. Age is also not the only factor or signal of a squad that has hung around too long, length of time in squad is probably of even greater importance. Ultimately, hanging on to the greats is what did Kerry, and is what will eventually do Dublin.

As Dublin fans who attend all League games and some O'Byrne and other games, as well as seeing what is happening around the club scene and underage, we are probably much better placed to comment on the up-and-coming generation.

beggars_bush · 13-08-2019 01:13PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why don't the other counties simply reallocate the funding away from Dublin?

When was it ever voted in though?
It was never brought to congress
It's the full time staff in the GAA who decide policy
And surprise, surprise they are all located in?

The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1