Minimum cabin crew reqs

The Veteran · 12-08-2019 2:07pm #1

Folks, what is the minimum cabin crew a 737 800 can operate with? Asking the question from an EU261 perspective. 20+ hour delay on a flight because a crew member was ill when the inbound arrived. Return flight delayed until new aircraft came from the UK. The original aircraft though did actually depart back to Dublin "empty".

Could the return flight have operated with pax on board, one crew member "short"?
(If yes or no, would appreciate a quoting of relevant Reg etc so I know where I do or dont stand for an EU261 claim).

Thanks

California Dreamer · 12-08-2019 2:10pm

50 pax per CC

Locker10a · 12-08-2019 3:06pm

A full 737-800 would require a minimum of 4 cabin crew.

The Veteran · 12-08-2019 3:38pm

Thanks for the replies so far folks but one "angle" I want to establish is, can an aircraft that say requires 4 if full can operate with a reduced number of pax.

Essentially, 189 pax if full requiring 4 CC, but when one falls ill, can the aircraft offload some pax to bring it within the max number of pax for 3 CC?

orionm_73 · 12-08-2019 4:13pm

If the senior cabin crew member was the one who was ill then the aircraft wouldn’t be able to depart with 3 crew and reduced passenger numbers onboard.

Brennus335 · 12-08-2019 5:54pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

50 pax per CC

50 seats per cabin crew. Doesn't matter if they're occupied or not.

Brennus335 · 12-08-2019 5:55pm

The Veteran wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far folks but one "angle" I want to establish is, can an aircraft that say requires 4 if full can operate with a reduced number of pax.

Essentially, 189 pax if full requiring 4 CC, but when one falls ill, can the aircraft offload some pax to bring it within the max number of pax for 3 CC?

No, minimum crew compliment is one cabin crew member per 50 seats. It doesn't matter if the seat is occupied or empty.

Locker10a · 12-08-2019 6:05pm

Brennus335 wrote: »

No, minimum crew compliment is one cabin crew member per 50 seats. It doesn't matter if the seat is occupied or empty.

In previous airlines it was possibly to get special permission to operate a flight from an outstation back to base with one crew member down, a certain percentage of passengers would have to be offloaded.This was under a UK regulations and it could only be if a junior crew member was offloaded. You cant operate without a senior.

basill · 12-08-2019 6:08pm

In order to operate back with 1 less then not only do you have to fulfil the legal requirements as outlined above but each airline will have their own rules and regs contained in their respective Operations Manual which forms part of the AOC. This will no doubt require permission from a senior management pilot who will have to notify the IAA (if Irish registered). The latter can refuse as well. I can tell you from experience that permission is not always granted irrespective of the fact that the legal boxes may be ticked.

The Veteran · 13-08-2019 12:46am

Folks, thanks again for the replies to date. Quick version of events:

Sunwings Aircraft (so Canadian registered) operating a TUI flight with Sunwings pilots but TUI CC (based on sight of their airside badges). So, first complications are which regulatory authority is relevant (Canada or UK as the plane is Canadian and the airline as such British). For the same.reason, whose SOPs apply. Not sure any of us here can answer those questions? (Or at least the second one anyway).

Flight.comes.from Dublin to Rhodes and lands late. Boarding for the return commences but stops after about 15 pax are let through gate to get on bus. Time passes and we're told.flight delayed for at least 16 hours (based on expected new departure time). Meanwhile (as I discovered later from talking to someone close to events); a CC member was taken to hospital as no assessment was possible.at the airport and the empty aircraft took for Dublin approx 75 mins after it should.have left full. A replacement 757 was brought from Manchester and we got back to DUB 20 hours late.

I'm not looking for EU 261 advice but I am anticipating the airline citing "exceptional circumstances" to refuse compensation. I'm trying to anticipate that by understanding whether the airline could have brought some or the majority home and only delayed (in EU 261 terms) about a quarter of the pax. Thankfully the CC member was fine and actually deadheaded home on the 757 (so it's not about her) but rather that now that the delay has happened, understanding what options were open to the airline to minimise the impact. It would strike me that if there was scope to operate with a reduced pax load that it would have been better.

Accepting the replies so far, any further views? Looking to leverage the knowledge on here to understand the options TUI had open to them.

Locker10a · 13-08-2019 1:03am

The Veteran wrote: »

Folks, thanks again for the replies to date. Quick version of events:

Sunwings Aircraft (so Canadian registered) operating a TUI flight with Sunwings pilots but TUI CC (based on sight of their airside badges). So, first complications are which regulatory authority is relevant (Canada or UK as the plane is Canadian and the airline as such British). For the same.reason, whose SOPs apply. Not sure any of us here can answer those questions? (Or at least the second one anyway).

Flight.comes.from Dublin to Rhodes and lands late. Boarding for the return commences but stops after about 15 pax are let through gate to get on bus. Time passes and we're told.flight delayed for at least 16 hours (based on expected new departure time). Meanwhile (as I discovered later from talking to someone close to events); a CC member was taken to hospital as no assessment was possible.at the airport and the empty aircraft took for Dublin approx 75 mins after it should.have left full. A replacement 757 was brought from Manchester and we got back to DUB 20 hours late.

I'm not looking for EU 261 advice but I am anticipating the airline citing "exceptional circumstances" to refuse compensation. I'm trying to anticipate that by understanding whether the airline could have brought some or the majority home and only delayed (in EU 261 terms) about a quarter of the pax. Thankfully the CC member was fine and actually deadheaded home on the 757 (so it's not about her) but rather that now that the delay has happened, understanding what options were open to the airline to minimise the impact. It would strike me that if there was scope to operate with a reduced pax load that it would have been better.

Accepting the replies so far, any further views? Looking to leverage the knowledge on here to understand the options TUI had open to them.

I’m 99% the operate to TUIs U.K. SOPs just with Sunwing pilots. I could be wrong but the cabin crew are generally Dublin based and also sometimes work on the standard U.K. reg aircraft.

The airline would not have been able to operate back with reduced passengers if it was the Senior that took ill. A flight can’t go without a Senior. If this was the case there’s nothing more they could have done.

HTCOne · 13-08-2019 1:03am

I think some regulators require main exits to be manned by CC for take off and landing. 4 main exits on a B738 would require 4 CC regardless of passenger load if the Canadians or Brits have this requirement.

IngazZagni · 13-08-2019 1:08am

The Veteran wrote: »

Folks, thanks again for the replies to date. Quick version of events:

Sunwings Aircraft (so Canadian registered) operating a TUI flight with Sunwings pilots but TUI CC (based on sight of their airside badges). So, first complications are which regulatory authority is relevant (Canada or UK as the plane is Canadian and the airline as such British). For the same.reason, whose SOPs apply. Not sure any of us here can answer those questions? (Or at least the second one anyway).

Flight.comes.from Dublin to Rhodes and lands late. Boarding for the return commences but stops after about 15 pax are let through gate to get on bus. Time passes and we're told.flight delayed for at least 16 hours (based on expected new departure time). Meanwhile (as I discovered later from talking to someone close to events); a CC member was taken to hospital as no assessment was possible.at the airport and the empty aircraft took for Dublin approx 75 mins after it should.have left full. A replacement 757 was brought from Manchester and we got back to DUB 20 hours late.

I'm not looking for EU 261 advice but I am anticipating the airline citing "exceptional circumstances" to refuse compensation. I'm trying to anticipate that by understanding whether the airline could have brought some or the majority home and only delayed (in EU 261 terms) about a quarter of the pax. Thankfully the CC member was fine and actually deadheaded home on the 757 (so it's not about her) but rather that now that the delay has happened, understanding what options were open to the airline to minimise the impact. It would strike me that if there was scope to operate with a reduced pax load that it would have been better.

Accepting the replies so far, any further views? Looking to leverage the knowledge on here to understand the options TUI had open to them.

There are so many variables and reasons why they may not have been able to operate with 150 pax with 3 cc. Those answers you will not get because the only people that know are the crew of that flight and the operations controllers at the airline. Anything else is simply speculation.

1 thing I would say though is if they could have brought 150 pax home then they probably would have.

The Veteran · 13-08-2019 12:45pm

As folks have said a lot of variables! My own sense is that having arrived in late, the pilots and airline decided we are not hanging around to work out options as the pilots would have been running out of hours and the plane was needed back in Dublin to operate the next day.

I also understand Sunwings\TUI second aircraft (nominally based in Dublin) went tech at some point over the weekend too. The "insider" I spoke to used the word nightmare to describe TUI's weekend. At least they put us up in an all inclusive hotel for the night!

Thanks for the replies.folks

martinsvi · 14-08-2019 10:56am

airlines operating under EASA operators in EASA land have to adhere to EASA rules, doesn't matter where the plane is registered.

however, procedures for operation with reduced cabin crew are decided by the company itself and approved by the aviation authority. As already mentioned here, you can reduce the number of CCs, as long as you have a senior and as long as you have 1 per 50 pax. This is only allowed if you return from outstation to base. You need one CC working with an exit pair, so technically you could reduce a 737 CC count down to 2.

For smaller planes, like a Q400 or CRJ you could go down to 1 cc as long as (s)he takes the rear jump seat for take off and landing and the FO will operate the front emergency exit doors if such need will arise

NH2013 · 14-08-2019 12:07pm

martinsvi wrote: »

airlines operating under EASA operators in EASA land have to adhere to EASA rules, doesn't matter where the plane is registered.

however, procedures for operation with reduced cabin crew are decided by the company itself and approved by the aviation authority. As already mentioned here, you can reduce the number of CCs, as long as you have a senior and as long as you have 1 per 50 pax. This is only allowed if you return from outstation to base. You need one CC working with an exit pair, so technically you could reduce a 737 CC count down to 2.

For smaller planes, like a Q400 or CRJ you could go down to 1 cc as long as (s)he takes the rear jump seat for take off and landing and the FO will operate the front emergency exit doors if such need will arise

Well not totally correct, with the Sunwings aircraft and pilots they'll be operating under their Canadian AOC or basically Canadian Airline License so they will have to satisfy Canadian laws, however as they are operating on behalf of an EASA airline TUI, they'll also have to obey some European EASA rules as well, so are in fact restricted to whichever laws are more restrictive on them, either Canadian or EASA they'd have to go with the more restrictive.

It's not always the case though that local rules apply, the prime example being the FAA in the USA which has limits of 8 hours gate to gate time for flights with only 2 pilots if any part is during the night, or 9 hours if all during the day, which is why UA flights from Dublin to IAD and ORD all have 3 pilots on them, but Aer Lingus's flights only have 2 pilots as EASA rules allow you to work for 13 hours from when you arrive at work to when you have to leave, or 12 hours at night. So not always a case of local rules with regards to rest and maximum time etc always having to apply.

martinsvi · 14-08-2019 1:37pm

NH2013 wrote: »

Well not totally correct, with the Sunwings aircraft and pilots they'll be operating under their Canadian AOC or basically Canadian Airline License so they will have to satisfy Canadian laws, however as they are operating on behalf of an EASA airline TUI, they'll also have to obey some European EASA rules as well, so are in fact restricted to whichever laws are more restrictive on them, either Canadian or EASA they'd have to go with the more restrictive.

when you Wet-lease from a third country, you have to obtain Part-TCO Authorization and in process of obtaining it you have to demonstrate your means of compliance regarding EASA/SERA rules. Sure enough, if Canadian laws are more strict, they can follow them, but as far as EASA is concerned, you comply with their laws and that's it.

Minimum cabin crew reqs

Comments