Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

briany · 09-08-2019 10:56AM

Nody wrote: »

Because they don't have the Blitz WW2 spirit of course; you know the thing that's constantly referred back to as some kind of magical talisman or ultimate fact in an argument that can't be disputed...

Most of the people in the UK are too young to remember what the Blitz was like, and the rest are too old to remember what the Blitz was like.

Professor Moriarty · 09-08-2019 10:57AM

Nody wrote: »

Because they don't have the Blitz WW2 spirit of course; you know the thing that's constantly referred back to as some kind of magical talisman or ultimate fact in an argument that can't be disputed...

The USSR won WW2.

storker · 09-08-2019 10:58AM

Nody wrote: »

Because they don't have the Blitz WW2 spirit of course; you know the thing that's constantly referred back to as some kind of magical talisman or ultimate fact in an argument that can't be disputed...

What's often overlooked by those who invoke that idea is that German civilians displayed it too. Mass bombing of German cities - on a much larger scale than the Germans were able to manage in Britain - did not produce the national collapse of morale that was expected. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that the potential for exhibiting a Spirit of the Blitz is a human trait rather than a solely British one...but good luck with getting British exceptionalists to even imagine that such a thing might be possible.

ancapailldorcha · 09-08-2019 11:01AM

briany wrote: »

Most of the people in the UK are too young to remember what the Blitz was like, and the rest are too old to remember what the Blitz was like.

The pro-Brexit boomers were born in the years after the war. Actual veterans of the war came out for Remain before the referendum. He's one article on the subject. It is nothing more than empty jingoism from the generations who reaped the fruits of the post-war boom and then voted to cripple the prospects of next generations of Brits.

storker · 09-08-2019 11:01AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The USSR won WW2.

Please tell me you're not being serious. The Allies, including the USSR won WW2. It's unlikely that anyone would have been able to do it without the other.

storker · 09-08-2019 11:04AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The pro-Brexit boomers were born in the years after the war. Actual veterans of the war came out for Remain before the referendum. He's one article on the subject. It is nothing more than empty jingoism from the generations who reaped the fruits of the post-war boom and then voted to cripple the prospects of next generations of Brits.

Nice quote from Cameron:

"Isolationism has never served this country well. Whenever we turn our back on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it. We have always had to go back in, and always at much higher cost."

True. Next time the bill will probably include adopting the Euro, Schengen, etc...

Professor Moriarty · 09-08-2019 11:04AM

storker wrote: »

Please tell me you're not being serious. The Allies, including the USSR won WW2. It's unlikely that anyone would have been able to do it without the other.

I'm serious.

storker · 09-08-2019 11:09AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I'm serious.

Well, not an argument for here, and it's been argued aplenty elsewhere. I'm satisfied that anyone who thinks the USSR did it alone or could have done it alone is taking a very blinkered, and possibly partisan (no pun intended) view, even if the USSR did do the bulk of the heavy lifting (when finally goaded out of its cooperation with Nazi aims).

trellheim · 09-08-2019 11:12AM

(when finally goaded out of its cooperation with Nazi aims).

What ? Russian trains with cargo for Germany were still choo-chooing merrily along when Germany invaded Russia 22/6/41

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

We're miles OT here but that's a bit revisionist.

Call me Al · 09-08-2019 11:15AM

Robert McGrath wrote: »

Watching that Mark Francois clip, I notice that his debating rival mentioned the mistakes made by generals who “believed in Britain” in the past.

This is something that should probably be mentioned more often. Every time a Brexiter invokes the Blitz spirit of WWII, they should be reminded that there as a war before that in which huge swathes of the ordinary youth of Britain were sacrificed because of the arrogant and imperialistic follies of the upper classes and political elites ... WWI is a much better metaphor for this sh*tshow

It's up there with Boris spouting on with "do or die" when it comes to Brexit.
Does he realise that he's invoking a poem about the deaths of British soldiers who were dismally led by their military superiors into the "valley of death"?
Irony doesn't even begin to describe it.

InTheShadows · 09-08-2019 11:16AM

https://news.sky.com/story/55-migrants-in-canoes-rescued-off-kent-coast-11780804

This is why the UK is leaving the EU and rightfully so. We have a coming world population crisis and people from the 3rd world are going to continue to turn to Europe for their futures (who can blame them). We haven't felt the full effects of it here but given this governments and in fact all the leading political organisations views on migration we will and it won't be pretty when parts of this country end up like Bradford or Birmingham.

If the UK establishment had spent the last three years trying to understand why people voted Brexit instead of calling them racists and laughing at their "lack of education" then maybe just maybe we wouldn't be looking at the coming hard exit.

I predict we will have a Irexit type vote here within the next 25 years as we seem to be making the exact same mistakes here as the UK have done over the last 30 years.

trellheim · 09-08-2019 11:19AM

euro to pound havent seen it that bad since 2008 or so

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=GBP&view=10Y

.92546 yeeek

what a time to be buying a used car in the uk

GBP to dollar near a 10 year horror as well

Professor Moriarty · 09-08-2019 11:20AM

storker wrote: »

Well, not an argument for here, and it's been argued aplenty elsewhere. I'm satisfied that anyone who thinks the USSR did it alone or could have done it alone is taking a very blinkered, and possibly partisan (no pun intended) view, even if the USSR did do the bulk of the heavy lifting (when finally goaded out of its cooperation with Nazi aims).

It's important in the context of Francois and his ilk referencing how they won the war and how Brexit is a part of that nationalistic mindset. Britain suffered 450,000 casualties. The USSR suffered 25,000,000. 75% of German military losses occurred fighting the USSR. This bulldog spirit being parroted by Johnson et al is a fantasy sustained by notions of a Britain long since dead and a fictional history.

LuckyLloyd · 09-08-2019 11:20AM

InTheShadows wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/55-migrants-in-canoes-rescued-off-kent-coast-11780804

This is why the UK is leaving the EU and rightfully so. We have a coming world population crisis and people from the 3rd world are going to continue to turn to Europe for their futures (who can blame them). We haven't felt the full effects of it here but given this governments and in fact all the leading political organisations views on migration we will and it won't be pretty when parts of this country end up like Bradford or Birmingham.

If the UK establishment had spent the last three years trying to understand why people voted Brexit instead of calling them racists and laughing at their "lack of education" then maybe just maybe we wouldn't be looking at the coming hard exit.

I predict we will have a Irexit type vote here within the next 25 years as we seem to be making the exact same mistakes here as the UK have done over the last 30 years.

Is it? The EU concluded a withdrawal agreement with the UK that prioritised immigration as the major issue and it has been rejected by hard Brexiteers. And they propose to leave their only land border unguarded post Brexit.

So is immigration the big issue really?

prawnsambo · 09-08-2019 11:21AM

InTheShadows wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/55-migrants-in-canoes-rescued-off-kent-coast-11780804

This is why the UK is leaving the EU and rightfully so. We have a coming world population crisis and people from the 3rd world are going to continue to turn to Europe for their futures (who can blame them). We haven't felt the full effects of it here but given this governments and in fact all the leading political organisations views on migration we will and it won't be pretty when parts of this country end up like Bradford or Birmingham.

Does the English Channel automatically become a moat with brexit?

BonnieSituation · 09-08-2019 11:22AM

InTheShadows wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/55-migrants-in-canoes-rescued-off-kent-coast-11780804

This is why the UK is leaving the EU and rightfully so. We have a coming world population crisis and people from the 3rd world are going to continue to turn to Europe for their futures (who can blame them). We haven't felt the full effects of it here but given this governments and in fact all the leading political organisations views on migration we will and it won't be pretty when parts of this country end up like Bradford or Birmingham.

If the UK establishment had spent the last three years trying to understand why people voted Brexit instead of calling them racists and laughing at their "lack of education" then maybe just maybe we wouldn't be looking at the coming hard exit.

I predict we will have a Irexit type vote here within the next 25 years as we seem to be making the exact same mistakes here as the UK have done over the last 30 years.

We won't. And what mistakes are we making?

The UK could always stop non EU immigration. They always chose not to.

Bradford is indeed a hovel, but at the same time, that's to do with it and other northern cities just being ignored by successive governments.

storker · 09-08-2019 11:26AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's important in the context of Francois and his ilk referencing how they won the war and how Brexit is a part of that nationalistic mindset. Britain suffered 450,000 casualties. The USSR suffered 25,000,000. 75% of German military losses occurred fighting the USSR. This bulldog spirit being parroted by Johnson et al is a fantasy sustained by notions of a Britain long since dead and a fictional history.

Ah, I see. In that context I wouldn't argue with you.

Leroy42 · 09-08-2019 11:27AM

InTheShadows wrote: »

If the UK establishment had spent the last three years trying to understand why people voted Brexit instead of calling them racists and laughing at their "lack of education" then maybe just maybe we wouldn't be looking at the coming hard exit.

I predict we will have a Irexit type vote here within the next 25 years as we seem to be making the exact same mistakes here as the UK have done over the last 30 years.

They have tried to understand it. They have showed them the reality of the negoiations, the potential damage to the economy, pointed out that immigration is down to a lack of effort on behalf of governments, that low wages are a result of a failure to uphold current laws.

Time and again the reasons for people voting have been shown to be based on wrong information. But when that is pointed out they simply cry 'project fear' of bias BBC. So whilst they may want things to change they are going about it the wrong way.

Look at the UK now. Johnson is the PM. The Tories are in government. The very people that got them into the mess that led to the voting for BRexit and the people telling them to trust them to fix it.

Not every Brexit voter was racist, but there are a large amount of the that clearly are. Not every BRexit voter was unaware of he real facts, but many of them were.

Enzokk · 09-08-2019 11:31AM

InTheShadows wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/55-migrants-in-canoes-rescued-off-kent-coast-11780804

This is why the UK is leaving the EU and rightfully so. We have a coming world population crisis and people from the 3rd world are going to continue to turn to Europe for their futures (who can blame them). We haven't felt the full effects of it here but given this governments and in fact all the leading political organisations views on migration we will and it won't be pretty when parts of this country end up like Bradford or Birmingham.

If the UK establishment had spent the last three years trying to understand why people voted Brexit instead of calling them racists and laughing at their "lack of education" then maybe just maybe we wouldn't be looking at the coming hard exit.

I predict we will have a Irexit type vote here within the next 25 years as we seem to be making the exact same mistakes here as the UK have done over the last 30 years.

There was more immigration from the type that the UK can control than from the EU. The immigration argument is nothing more than a racist one. Yes, it is a lack of education that caused this ignorance. Maybe not a lack of book education, but of world education where you actually question what is being told to you. I have heard very intelligent people rant about Polish immigrants when the facts are there that EU immigration is a positive for the UK. That means that it is not a problem with the education, but having had a world view spoon fed to them and them believing it.

As for the mistakes that led to Brexit, maybe don't send charlatans to the EU tell you that is doesn't work while taking the salary.

https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1159423357584064513?s=20

That is Emma Barnett questioning how the system cannot work in the EU but an MEP can still do their job.

As for Johnson, he will circumvent parliament to get no-deal to get rid of the Brexit Party threat to get a bigger majority so he can be PM for longer. I can see no other reason for going through with the rhetoric they have going on other than they want to leave without a deal. We know Conservative Party voters will vote Brexit Party if Brexit is not delivered. If it is then he doesn't have to worry about that threat.

This is Nikki Da Costa outlining how he can do that, another unelected bureaucrat trying to take power away from parliament, in opposition to the promises of Vote Leave to take back control.

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1159731772554448897?s=20

martingriff · 09-08-2019 11:37AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The USSR won WW2.

Hey now Sush facts not welcome could throw Americs help in there alsi

Professor Moriarty · 09-08-2019 11:38AM

Enzokk wrote: »

There was more immigration from the type that the UK can control than from the EU. The immigration argument is nothing more than a racist one. Yes, it is a lack of education that caused this ignorance. Maybe not a lack of book education, but of world education where you actually question what is being told to you. I have heard very intelligent people rant about Polish immigrants when the facts are there that EU immigration is a positive for the UK. That means that it is not a problem with the education, but having had a world view spoon fed to them and them believing it.

As for the mistakes that led to Brexit, maybe don't send charlatans to the EU tell you that is doesn't work while taking the salary.

https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1159423357584064513?s=20

That is Emma Barnett questioning how the system cannot work in the EU but an MEP can still do their job.

As for Johnson, he will circumvent parliament to get no-deal to get rid of the Brexit Party threat to get a bigger majority so he can be PM for longer. I can see no other reason for going through with the rhetoric they have going on other than they want to leave without a deal. We know Conservative Party voters will vote Brexit Party if Brexit is not delivered. If it is then he doesn't have to worry about that threat.

This is Nikki Da Costa outlining how he can do that, another unelected bureaucrat trying to take power away from parliament, in opposition to the promises of Vote Leave to take back control.

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1159731772554448897?s=20

Since 2016, immigration from countries outside the EU has risen while immigration from inside the EU has fallen.

VinLieger · 09-08-2019 11:40AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Since 2016, immigration from countries outside the EU has risen while immigration from inside the EU has fallen.

And lets not forget the first thing on any trade agreement negotiations discussion items with the likes of China, India, Australia etc will be .... more Visas and Immigration

martingriff · 09-08-2019 11:41AM

storker wrote: »

Please tell me you're not being serious. The Allies, including the USSR won WW2. It's unlikely that anyone would have been able to do it without the other.

While they did not win it there fight against Hitler and resources the drew from the Western Front certainly helped the British

Professor Moriarty · 09-08-2019 11:42AM

VinLieger wrote: »

And lets not forget the first thing on any trade agreement negotiations discussion items with the likes of China, India, Australia etc will be .... more Visas and Immigration

Absolutely. India stated this categorically.

martingriff · 09-08-2019 11:45AM

InTheShadows wrote: »

https://news.sky.com/story/55-migrants-in-canoes-rescued-off-kent-coast-11780804

This is why the UK is leaving the EU and rightfully so. We have a coming world population crisis and people from the 3rd world are going to continue to turn to Europe for their futures (who can blame them). We haven't felt the full effects of it here but given this governments and in fact all the leading political organisations views on migration we will and it won't be pretty when parts of this country end up like Bradford or Birmingham.

If the UK establishment had spent the last three years trying to understand why people voted Brexit instead of calling them racists and laughing at their "lack of education" then maybe just maybe we wouldn't be looking at the coming hard exit.

I predict we will have a Irexit type vote here within the next 25 years as we seem to be making the exact same mistakes here as the UK have done over the last 30 years.

Whenever in or out of the EU the migration of people from outside is allways in control of the British.

20silkcut · 09-08-2019 11:50AM

storker wrote: »

What's often overlooked by those who invoke that idea is that German civilians displayed it too. Mass bombing of German cities - on a much larger scale than the Germans were able to manage in Britain - did not produce the national collapse of morale that was expected. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that the potential for exhibiting a Spirit of the Blitz is a human trait rather than a solely British one...but good luck with getting British exceptionalists to even imagine that such a thing might be possible.

Same with Japan. Conventional bombing did not bring them to the table either.
It took the atom bomb
The blitz spirit is certainly not unique.

johnnyskeleton · 09-08-2019 11:50AM

Mod note:

Storker, Professor, there are history and military fora on boards....

Stop moaning ffs · 09-08-2019 12:05PM

Just heard on the news, their economy has shrunk and one more negative quarter will see Britain enter recession.

Imreoir2 · 09-08-2019 12:07PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just heard on the news, their economy has shrunk and one more negative quarter will see Britain enter recession.

Is it not three negative quarters in succession that it required for recession?

Shelga · 09-08-2019 12:09PM

Saiid Javid on the radio just now, commenting upon the fact that the UK has just experienced a quarter of negative growth- “What is driving this is uncertainty, and the best way to give certainty is to leave on October the 31st.”

Ie the best way to give certainty to business is to leave with no deal on the 31st, to rip up all rules of trading overnight, to eliminate standards, with absolutely nothing to replace them. Yes, that’s really going to provide certainty, Sajid.

A no-deal Brexit will mean the UK goes into severe recession overnight. How he can claim anything else is incredible.

That this charlatan is the actual Chancellor of the Exchequer is terrifying and abhorrent.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Comments