Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger · 01-08-2019 03:38PM

Limpy wrote: »

I don't see how half the population are brainwashed or were sheeply led to vote leave. Sure, many people voted blindly but to say the leave side are all just and righteous voters is silly.
Farage took advantage of the Syria immigrant situation which was a real issue with voters. He got votes for it.

David Cameron was only elected because he promised a vote. Remember that.

They won the vote. So if that's democracy they should get there wish.

They also lied and cheated MASSIVELY

fash · 01-08-2019 03:44PM

robinph wrote: »

The Irish in the UK would get a vote in any such referendum in the UK the same as any UK citizen would. Irish citizens in the UK got a vote in Brexit and the Scottish independence referendum which were pretty fundamental constitutional questions regarding the future of the country.

UK residents in Ireland would not have got a vote in the marriage referendum which whilst it was a major social change, doesn't really change the makeup of the country in anyway.

Getting off track now, but the point was merely that Irish in the UK are considered 100% equivalent to UK citizens in the UK. The opposite is not quite true, although close.

The brexit vote even if dramatic in consequence- was a non binding plebiscite, referendums in Ireland change the Constitution - so something of a difference. If the UK wrote down their Constitution and have Irish citizens a right to vote, I would fully accept your position however.

Strazdas · 01-08-2019 03:48PM

Limpy wrote: »

I don't see how half the population are brainwashed or were sheeply led to vote leave. Sure, many people voted blindly but to say the leave side are all just and righteous voters is silly.
Farage took advantage of the Syria immigrant situation which was a real issue with voters. He got votes for it.

David Cameron was only elected because he promised a vote. Remember that.

They won the vote. So if that's democracy they should get there wish.

No, they genuinely hate the EU and want to leave. But the problem is they don't realise that 'leaving the EU' after 50 years is an absolute nightmare and could take a decade (during which time their economy will take a hammering). A lot of them seem to have regarded the Leave vote as being like cancelling their Sky Sports subscription or their gym membership.

Walter Bishop · 01-08-2019 03:49PM

Limpy wrote: »

I don't see how half the population are brainwashed or were sheeply led to vote leave. Sure, many people voted blindly but to say the leave side are all just and righteous voters is silly.
Farage took advantage of the Syria immigrant situation which was a real issue with voters. He got votes for it.

David Cameron was only elected because he promised a vote. Remember that.

They won the vote. So if that's democracy they should get there wish.

The UK has accepted somewhere over 10,000 refugees from Syria in the last few years https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43826163 - it doesn't seem an excessive amount considering these people were fleeing a war zone.

Leave voters were fed a diet of 'sovereignty' which seems to have been enough for many to vote Leave, others wanted to give a dig at the government, still others seem to have actually believed the '350m a week' stuff, and others just want fewer brown people in their area.

They were promised the sun the moon and the stars, all the benefits of the EU with none of the downside, 'easiest trade deal ever', 'they need us more than we need them' and now they can see that none of that was true, there may be quite a bit of buyers remorse out there.

So it is indeed fair to say that not everyone who voted Leave is a racist, but it's probably fair to say that everyone who's a racist voted Leave. Then you have the people who are lashing out at a system that has abandoned them, and those who didn't educate themselves sufficently on it or just voted with their emotions.

Valhallapt · 01-08-2019 03:51PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

What did they do yesterday?

I also think SF are firing too early for a border poll.
I don't think it would go the way we want, and then it would set-back unification for another generation.
We need to let Brexit bite.

If one was an ardent republican, the best possible outcome is a no deal. The NI economy will tank (although it’s already at the bottom), if the U.K. don’t initially have border checks specific industries in NI could easily be picked off, dump tariff free product onto the market. Farming (mainly unionist) will be decimated. When it comes to a border poll, it’s all about the economy(well not all but it’ll be a massive factor)

Shelga · 01-08-2019 03:52PM

Have there been any detailed studies done about how NI might be integrated into the rest of Ireland? Not just financially, but also politically, culturally etc. People seem to think that a vote to reunify Ireland is it, job done. In reality we would be looking at another 10-20 years of pain, and half of the population still not really wanting to be part of Ireland.

What would happen to all the bunting??

How much would we have to spend per year to accommodate this project?

I, for one, have massive misgivings about it, as I'm sure many others do.

What happens if there's a no-deal Brexit, and in 2-3 years time, 55% of the population of NI vote to reunite with Ireland, but 51% of people in the Republic reject it? Would the referenda be held at the same time?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just alarmed, quite frankly, at taking on NI, having spent a lot of time up there in the last few years. It's a completely different place.

BluePlanet · 01-08-2019 03:54PM

Infairness, they have assembled a pretty handsome war-chest of stimulus spending, which may mitigate some of that Brexit pain.

J Mysterio · 01-08-2019 03:57PM

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-08-2019 03:57PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Leo earlier today states ‘everyone should be afraid of a no deal brexit’

Cut to twitter. And actual respected news sources.

‘Leo Varadkar says he is afraid of no deal brexit’

Mere hours after accusing him of being in charge of project fear MKii

Jesus

In fairness Varadkar really does need to use his words more carefully in all sorts of ways not just Brexit.

Strazdas · 01-08-2019 03:59PM

trellheim wrote: »

Mark Francois is bogeyman level stuff - Steve Baker not taking a junior ministerial post was an interesting warning shot to show that the hardliners are still there and not taking part in the comedy

Yes indeed, the ERG appear to be now 'outside the tent', not in.

Stop moaning ffs · 01-08-2019 04:01PM

Shelga wrote: »

Have there been any detailed studies done about how NI might be integrated into the rest of Ireland? Not just financially, but also politically, culturally etc. People seem to think that a vote to reunify Ireland is it, job done. In reality we would be looking at another 10-20 years of pain, and half of the population still not really wanting to be part of Ireland.

What would happen to all the bunting??

How much would we have to spend per year to accommodate this project?

I, for one, have massive misgivings about it, as I'm sure many others do.

What happens if there's a no-deal Brexit, and in 2-3 years time, 55% of the population of NI vote to reunite with Ireland, but 51% of people in the Republic reject it? Would the referenda be held at the same time?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just alarmed, quite frankly, at taking on NI, having spent a lot of time up there in the last few years. It's a completely different place.

Referenda on the same day in NI and here.
All that’s needed is 50+1 in both results.

We do referendums better than anyone. We’d have the citizens assemblies north and south beforehand and safe to say all future nuts and bolts on expenditures and all of it including integration of society explored.

It won’t be a surprise ref like Cameron and brexit at all.

Our civil service are world class at mapping all this stuff out and presenting govt with the information and details.

Now if it was to pass up north and it was a no vote down here, or vice versa, that would be unexpected. Things then Would just remain as they are.

01-08-2019 04:02PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

Probably a good thing they didn't spread word too widely of where they'd be. :P

Water John · 01-08-2019 04:09PM

The fall in sterling means it's now below parity on Foreign Exchange at airports.

'Sterling’s fall will be felt immediately by holidaymakers abroad. At airports, travellers have been getting less than a euro and little more than a dollar for each £1.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/01/pound-sinks-to-fresh-low-against-dollar-amid-no-deal-brexit-fears-sterling

First sense of reality for ordinary British people.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-08-2019 04:10PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

Is that Kate Hoey in the background?

Figures.

swampgas · 01-08-2019 04:11PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

In fairness Varadkar really does need to use his words more carefully in all sorts of ways not just Brexit.

To be fair though, with such willingness to distort anything he says to suit a certain agenda, there isn't much he can say that can't be twisted to suit the Brexit agenda. His meaning was very clear, it was deliberately misrepresented. I get annoyed when Irish or EU leaders are castigated when making reasonable points in plain English for somehow being reckless with their choice of words.

If the lunatics in the UK are going to twist what you say regardless - you might as well express yourself as best you can without excessive self-censorship.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-08-2019 04:13PM

swampgas wrote: »

To be fair though, with such willingness to distort anything he says to suit a certain agenda, there isn't much he can say that can't be twisted to suit the Brexit agenda. His meaning was very clear, it was deliberately misrepresented. I get annoyed when Irish or EU leaders are castigated when making reasonable points in plain English for somehow being reckless with their choice of words.

If the lunatics in the UK are going to twist what you say regardless - you might as well express yourself as best you can without excessive self-censorship.

That's the downside of social media unfortunately. Everything will be twisted by some for their own echo chambers.

It's why political discourse has become so debased and you end up with a Trump and a Johnson.

J Mysterio · 01-08-2019 04:33PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is that Kate Hoey in the background?

Figures.

haha, I think it is actually. The perfect guide for his visit.

Strazdas · 01-08-2019 04:34PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

He doesn't seem to be aware that was a security and militarised border for two decades at least with thousands of troops and police either side.

Stop moaning ffs · 01-08-2019 04:35PM

Strazdas wrote: »

He doesn't seem to be aware that was a security and militarised border for two decades at least with thousands of troops and police either side.

With any luck he’s taken apart for this in the news or somewhere. Anywhere

Limpy · 01-08-2019 04:41PM

Water John wrote: »

The fall in sterling means it's now below parity on Foreign Exchange at airports.

'Sterling’s fall will be felt immediately by holidaymakers abroad. At airports, travellers have been getting less than a euro and little more than a dollar for each £1.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/01/pound-sinks-to-fresh-low-against-dollar-amid-no-deal-brexit-fears-sterling

First sense of reality for ordinary British people.

Brittish online retail sales will surge and holidays to the UK will also. If the pound stays weak that is.

Sam Russell · 01-08-2019 04:44PM

Strazdas wrote: »

He doesn't seem to be aware that was a security and militarised border for two decades at least with thousands of troops and police either side.

Not just troops and police, but a fair number of dead bodies ended up either side of the border - either killed there by one side or the other, or dumped there.

It is not possible for a hard border to be imposed without a return to those times.

Many Tories mention the different currencies and Vat rates as if that makes a border. Well locals have two purses, and buy whatever is cheaper on both sides of the border, but do not carry a passport, or get inspected as to what they have purchased.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-08-2019 04:48PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

haha, I think it is actually. The perfect guide for his visit.

I think I see Jim Allister there too.

What a bunch to be giving a guided tour.

Strazdas · 01-08-2019 05:30PM

Fascinating to see the power play in The Sun's editorial today. They are pro-Cummings and anti-Farage (and busy attacking Leo too) :

NIGEL Farage’s claim that chief No10 aide Dominic Cummings is not a proper Brexiteer is laughable.

Yes, he sidelined Farage, rightly fearing Ukip’s image would fatally harm Leave’s vote. Farage cannot forgive him.

But aside from Boris Johnson’s winning charisma, Cummings is the best thing about our new Government. He has a zeal for change, and to improve lives, which anyone should applaud.

Mr Farage should stop sniping — and consider how best to help them secure it.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9629369/varadkar-brexit-failure-statesmanship/

storker · 01-08-2019 05:44PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

In a similar vein to Cummings and his "undemocratic backstop", maybe rational, informed people should start replacing "Brexit" with "Planet Brexit", because Habib is surely on another world, if not a parallel universe...

yerwanthere123 · 01-08-2019 05:55PM

Very dignified from Simon Coveney in response to the nonsense of the last 48 hours or so.
https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/1156862782383542272?s=19

Frank Bullitt · 01-08-2019 06:04PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

How are people in the U.K falling for this? He doesn't even try to explain WHY there couldn't be a boarder there, on a single road, when there are hundreds of crossings.

It boggles the mind.

BonnieSituation · 01-08-2019 06:28PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Referenda on the same day in NI and here.
All that’s needed is 50+1 in both results.

We do referendums better than anyone. We’d have the citizens assemblies north and south beforehand and safe to say all future nuts and bolts on expenditures and all of it including integration of society explored.

It won’t be a surprise ref like Cameron and brexit at all.

Our civil service are world class at mapping all this stuff out and presenting govt with the information and details.

Now if it was to pass up north and it was a no vote down here, or vice versa, that would be unexpected. Things then Would just remain as they are.

Referenda do not have to be and will not be on the same day. It makes no sense for them to be.

The north will vote.
The south will then vote if needed.
If the north vote to reunify you're not gonna get a negative vote in the south. No chance.

That would be Jack Lynch level of abandonment.

johnnyskeleton · 01-08-2019 06:35PM

J Mysterio wrote: »

Seriously. People like this are influencing others.

https://twitter.com/benhabib6/status/1156905045239185410

'You couldn't have a border here, so there will be no border'.

The border is a red herring, used cynically as a negotiating ploy etc etc etc. One could reasonably ask to what end? Are they saying that the EU really want a No deal and are using the border to scupper the deal? Or is it the whole trapping them in the EU nonsense again?

I ask into an empty vaccuum because there is no real answer and for their rabble rousing purposes there doesnt need to be.

Itssoeasy · 01-08-2019 06:41PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Referenda do not have to be and will not be on the same day. It makes no sense for them to be.

The north will vote.
The south will then vote if needed.
If the north vote to reunify you're not gonna get a negative vote in the south. No chance.

That would be Jack Lynch level of abandonment.

Did Jack Lynch abandon the north ? What would have happened had he sent the Irish army over the border into the north at that time ? It wouldn't have been a good outcome.

Mr.Nice Guy · 01-08-2019 06:48PM

The argument that "we're not going to put up a hard border, so if the EU do that's up to them" is one of the more pathetic examples of abandoning responsibility that I've seen in this whole process from Brexit supporters. They literally campaigned under the slogan 'take back control of our land and borders'.

It's a bit like a fellow who leaves his wife and kids to shack up with his mistress. When he's later asked what's to be done about taking care of the family he's walking away from, his solution is that the ex-wife and kids should live together with him and the mistress.

"Don't worry, kids. It's not me that's looking to break up the family. If your mother chooses for us to live apart, well, that's her call, not mine. There's no reason why we can't all live together as one big happy family under the one roof."

In reality, the chancer that would put forward such an argument to try and manipulate his kids knows full well that his original decision to leave is what is necessitating the changes.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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