Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo · 31-07-2019 02:16PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thank goodness it is paywalled. Anyone who refers to 'Little Old Ireland' and claims to be British but has lived here for sixty years - well, that says it all. Truly a guest in this country - but an unwelcome and ungrateful one.

I think that kind of trash is par for the course in the Daily Telegraph - the anti Irish propaganda is in full flow.

Interesting fact about Bruce Arnold is that he was the subject of illegal telephone tapping in 1982 instigated by then Justice Minister Sean Doherty because he was considered 'anti-national'. The ensuing scandal cost Doherty his cabinet position and about ten years later, Charlie Haughey his job as Taoiseach when Doherty admitted that he'd shared transcripts with him.

Enzokk · 31-07-2019 02:17PM

brickster69 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/31/johnson-sends-ditch-the-backstop-message-to-eu-via-brexit-adviser

I wonder what his reception will be. If he goes there demanding that the UK leave the single market and the customs union and that the backstop be dropped his reception will surely be a cold one.

As for Labour, Thornberry has just come out with an interesting statement.

We'd be ‘off our rockers’ not to back remain in poll, says Thornberry

Labour’s Emily Thornberry has said the party would be “off our bloody rockers” not to seize the chance to remain in the EU via a second referendum, in an interview which put her at odds with comments from Jeremy Corbyn over the weekend.

Speaking in Australia, the shadow foreign secretary said all her meetings in the country had underlined how much better off the UK would be inside the EU.

“People that I’ve spoken to here appreciate that, and I have to say practically all of them … have said if we get an opportunity to remain in the European Union, we should take it. Because if we don’t, we’re off our bloody rockers,” she said.

On Sunday Corbyn said Labour would campaign for a second referendum and to remain in the EU if Johnson was proposing a no-deal Brexit but said the party would “reopen talks with the EU” about a Brexit deal if it won an election.

So now Thornberry is also against Corbyn. I wonder if she will get the same treatment from the Corbynites as they have given to Tom Watson. She is a Corbyn supporter and she has seen the light. Not even a Labour deal will be good for the country.

ancapailldorcha · 31-07-2019 02:18PM

Mod: When pasting a link, please add a reasonable summary of what's in it in your own words. Thanks.

serfboard · 31-07-2019 02:22PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thank goodness it is paywalled.

Exactly my sentiment - but let's just show what is visible so people here know what we're talking about:

Bruce Arnold wrote:

This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to...

... and thankfully the rest is unavailable - unless you pay for it. And who would want to pay to read that muck?

serfboard · 31-07-2019 02:30PM

Dytalus wrote: »

The reason so few Tory politicians (and, arguably, so few British citizens) care about their citizens in Northern Ireland is because they don't see them as fellow citizens in the UK.

Northern Ireland is "over there". It's not really part of the UK like England is, or Wales is, or that 'region' Scotland is. No, Northern Ireland is filled with Irish citizens. Not UK citizens and certainly not British citizens. They're practically outsiders, troublemakers, a heavy chain around the leg of the Union ...

And if you look at how the backstop gets discussed, if you look at the tone of online discourse (or the tone coming out of some MPs) when Northern Ireland gets brought up, if you look at how easily the concerns of the Northern Irish are dismissed you'll see how those in power view their fellows in Northern Ireland. The people of Northern Ireland don't really count as citizens of the UK.

The thing is, the above is true to the extent that the British think about Northern Ireland at all. The problem is - they don't. Witness the extent that the foreseeable problem that the border was going to be was discussed before the referendum - not at all, and not even raised by journalists who should have known better. They simply "forgot" about NI during the referendum - and for a long time beforehand.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Someone from GB (England + Scotland + Wales) is British.
Someone from NI is not British (as they're not from the three aformentioned countries).
Nor are they United Kingdom-ish.
They are Irish.

Reminding me of that great interview of Sammy Wilson conducted by Ali G in Belfast:

Ali G: Is you Irish?
Sammy: No, I'm British.
Ali G: So is you 'ere on 'oliday?

ambro25 · 31-07-2019 02:38PM

VinLieger wrote: »

I know but they aren't gonna get rid UK fulfillment centres cus they still wanna sell within the UK, but again since we are such a small market they will likely move us to French or German fulfillment instead of setting up our own dedicated one for the same reasons they never have before.

Maybe in the case of a UI we might then be big enough.

Anecdotally, but perhaps topically still, there's a pretty large Amazon logistics centre (185k sqm) scheduled to be set up in north east France, just over the border from us, on what used to be a large NATO airbase until decomm'd by the French Ministère des Armées.

We're fresh still in Luxembourg, but already well used to 'small country syndrome' for bricks and e-tail: Amazon is either .fr or .de (mostly .de for the locals), same story with eBay, IKEA etc.

E.g. we're sandwiched between a 'standard'-sized IKEA in Arlon just over the Belgian border to the west, and a 'supersized' (regional logistics centre) IKEA in Metz just over the French border to the south. As it happens, that new large Amazon logistics unit in Frescaty would be in the southern suburbs of Metz.

murphaph · 31-07-2019 02:42PM

Theanswers wrote: »

I'm sure they might. But again it doesn't solve the point I raised which is that Amazon UK is about 3.5 times the size of the nearest Amazon EU marketplace (Germany) of which the majority of Amazon Germanys products are sold by UK companies using UK Fulfillment Centers. The product choice of Amazon Germany, France, Italy and Spain will reduce after brexit and have increased prices.

I must say I've never noticed this in practice but maybe I buy the wrong stuff to see it. I live in Germany and it's really rare that something comes from the UK in my experience. In fact a large amount of stuff comes from the warehouse 10 minutes away. I can often order Prime stuff with same day delivery by Amazon Logistics.

Sam Russell · 31-07-2019 02:59PM

Just to parse what BA says:

Originally Posted by Bruce Arnold
This is tough right now, being a proud and loyal British subject who has lived in, and loved, Ireland for more than 60 years. What is tough is watching the ridiculous behaviour of the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and his foreign minister, Simon Coveney, trying to destroy, like wilful children, relations with an ancient and friendly neighbour.

To use terms like that is pejorative to say the least and reduces the article to propaganda - which it obviously is. The 'friendly neighbour' that clearly assisted the bombers that caused the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. They also were part of a campaign of murders and bombings against Catholics (who may or may not have been subversives. That kind of behaviour is not that of a friend.

Whatever faults the British may have, they understand independence and freedom. I can understand why they mock the ridiculous behaviour of these two men. Varadkar and Coveney are both members of Fine Gael, a party that has its roots in the fight 100 years ago to secure independence and freedom for Ireland. Yet now here they are trying to block the UK’s path to...

They surely do understand independence. That is why they shelled Dublin in 1916 - the second city of the Empire. That is why they burned down the centre on Cork in 1921. That is why the fought the Boor Way, That is why they fought Ghandi in India using force against a pacifist. And that is why they opposed every attempt at movements looking for independence from the British Empire

Yes they do understand independence. (Just enough not to allow subjugated people to achieve it).

I must go and lie down somewhere dark and quiet.

Stop moaning ffs · 31-07-2019 03:09PM

‘Britain is a country that understands freedom and independence’ says a man from a country that is and will continue to block Scottish freedom and independence.

The British are incurably appalling quite often but the ramping up of the anti Irish can sentiment is growing daily and obviously orchestrated but it is probably only going to get worse on a lot more fronts than the awful telegraph after the 31st and the fate they’ve sealed for themselves starts bearing terrible results.

An Claidheamh · 31-07-2019 03:22PM

I know I'm repeating myself but Bruce Arnold is another anti-Irish nobody who was sprung on us by the Irish establishment media/RTÉ/Irish Times/Tony O'Reilly - whose only talent is to act as a 19th century British caricature.

á la Kevin Myers, Eoghan Harris,

Up until Brexit the likes of FG would have been fellow travellers of them when they were useful to chastise and harass northern nationalists.

Remember they were hired and paid by Irish owned newspapers.

In some way, he and his ilk are a Frankentein of the Irish media.

(By the way, the only "ancient friends" thing is a patronising act - they're well aware they're thought of as pr1cks as they whinge about us not supporting their national soccer team, it's a delusion)

jm08 · 31-07-2019 03:25PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Amazon have data centres larger than football fields all over Dublin.
Don’t think It would cost them all that much to relocate. If they aren’t working on it already.

A couple of months back I bought a laptop charger from a UK company on Amazon. They sent me two by mistake and when I downloaded the label to return, the address was to Amazon Tallaght.

prawnsambo · 31-07-2019 03:32PM

jm08 wrote: »

A couple of months back I bought a laptop charger from a UK company on Amazon. They sent me two by mistake and when I downloaded the label to return, the address was to Amazon Tallaght.

That's a data centre. I imagine they use it as a kind of waystation to aggregate parcels going back to the UK.

BobbyBobberson · 31-07-2019 03:38PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Thank goodness it is paywalled. Anyone who refers to 'Little Old Ireland' and claims to be British but has lived here for sixty years - well, that says it all. Truly a guest in this country - but an unwelcome and ungrateful one.

I think that kind of trash is par for the course in the Daily Telegraph - the anti Irish propaganda is in full flow.

Someone once commented that the paywall on The Telegraph and the way the text fades out reminds them of walking away from a drunk in the pub who is rambling away.

Stop moaning ffs · 31-07-2019 03:41PM

jm08 wrote: »

A couple of months back I bought a laptop charger from a UK company on Amazon. They sent me two by mistake and when I downloaded the label to return, the address was to Amazon Tallaght.

I passed that Center every day on a course I did last month.
It’s astonishing how big it is.
I was under the illusion there was a limit to the size a warehouse structure could be here, remembering IKEAS difficulty setting up here.

The amazon Center is easily the biggest structure of that kind I’ve ever seen.

Stop moaning ffs · 31-07-2019 03:43PM

Is Bannon balls deep with all the bad actors behind the scenes in this mess or what’s happening here? Why would they even interview him?

https://twitter.com/bbcr4today/status/1156490377647595525?s=21

BobbyBobberson · 31-07-2019 03:45PM

The BBC is having a mare the past couple of years. I don't doubt they mean well but their balance and who they interview is beyond crazy. Dont even start me on Question Time.

Strazdas · 31-07-2019 03:46PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

A despicable article by Bruce Arnold in the Telegraph.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/31/bought-brussels-little-irelands-ridiculous-leaders-have-landed/

Didn't Haughey once call Arnold "a guest here"? Indeed.

It seems the Telegraph are actively canvassing for articles from columnists attacking Varadkar and the Irish Govt. It's quite systematic.

prawnsambo · 31-07-2019 03:52PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I passed that Center every day on a course I did last month.
It’s astonishing how big it is.
I was under the illusion there was a limit to the size a warehouse structure could be here, remembering IKEAS difficulty setting up here.

The amazon Center is easily the biggest structure of that kind I’ve ever seen.

It's not that much bigger than IKEA. Rough calculation from Google Earth tells me that IKEA is 5 acres and Amazon is about 6. Still bloody massive structures and I think IKEA is bigger because it has more floors (I think).

BonnieSituation · 31-07-2019 03:56PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not that much bigger than IKEA. Rough calculation from Google Earth tells me that IKEA is 5 acres and Amazon is about 6. Still bloody massive structures and I think IKEA is bigger because it has more floors (I think).

Ikea's biggest problem when opening here wasn't so much size but the fact that it would generate so so so much traffic in the area and on the m50.

A data centre doesn't have that so much as an issue.

Stop moaning ffs · 31-07-2019 03:57PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not that much bigger than IKEA. Rough calculation from Google Earth tells me that IKEA is 5 acres and Amazon is about 6. Still bloody massive structures and I think IKEA is bigger because it has more floors (I think).

I was thinking is it cos it’s black? The Ikea one is blue.
Plus the Amazon one is surrounded by fencing you can’t even see through. Probably just made me think it’s a lot bigger.

Zubeneschamali · 31-07-2019 03:58PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I was under the illusion there was a limit to the size a warehouse structure could be here, remembering IKEAS difficulty setting up here.

No, that limit was for a retail store, to try and stop big-box stores killing smaller businesses.

A data centre is not retail, the limits do not apply.

ancapailldorcha · 31-07-2019 04:01PM

jm08 wrote: »

A couple of months back I bought a laptop charger from a UK company on Amazon. They sent me two by mistake and when I downloaded the label to return, the address was to Amazon Tallaght.

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's a data centre. I imagine they use it as a kind of waystation to aggregate parcels going back to the UK.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I passed that Center every day on a course I did last month.
It’s astonishing how big it is.
I was under the illusion there was a limit to the size a warehouse structure could be here, remembering IKEAS difficulty setting up here.

The amazon Center is easily the biggest structure of that kind I’ve ever seen.

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not that much bigger than IKEA. Rough calculation from Google Earth tells me that IKEA is 5 acres and Amazon is about 6. Still bloody massive structures and I think IKEA is bigger because it has more floors (I think).

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Ikea's biggest problem when opening here wasn't so much size but the fact that it would generate so so so much traffic in the area and on the m50.

A data centre doesn't have that so much as an issue.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I was thinking is it cos it’s black? The Ikea one is blue.
Plus the Amazon one is surrounded by fencing you can’t even see through. Probably just made me think it’s a lot bigger.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

No, that limit was for a retail store, to try and stop big-box stores killing smaller businesses.

A data centre is not retail, the limits do not apply.

Mod: Let's leave this discussion at that please. It's getting off-topic.

Strazdas · 31-07-2019 04:05PM

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

The BBC is having a mare the past couple of years. I don't doubt they mean well but their balance and who they interview is beyond crazy. Dont even start me on Question Time.

Strangely though, I think they may be doing people a favour giving this nut a platform and linking No Deal to Trump and himself. Many people in Britain are deeply wary of Bannon and think he is a wrong 'un.....such an intervention could backfire on the hard Brexiteers.

Water John · 31-07-2019 04:07PM

These are who Frost is meeting over two days.
'He will meet Clara Martinez Alberola, the head of cabinet for the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker; Stéphanie Riso, a senior official in Michel Barnier’s negotiations taskforce who was a key player in drafting the terms of the backstop, and Ilze Juhansone, the deputy secretary general at the commission.' Guardian

I'd say all that needs to be said should take about 30 minutes.

BobbyBobberson · 31-07-2019 04:09PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Strangely though, I think they may be doing people a favour giving this nut a platform and linking No Deal to Trump and himself. Many people in Britain are deeply wary of Bannon and think he is a wrong 'un.....such an intervention could backfire on the hard Brexiteers.

Yeah that's a decent point! Hope you're right.

VinLieger · 31-07-2019 04:15PM

Pounds on its way back up, looks to have been the trend over the past few months that it drops at the beginning of the week and claws its way partially back from mid to endweek.

Seth Brundle · 31-07-2019 04:19PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Pounds on its way back up, looks to have been the trend over the past few months that it drops at the beginning of the week and claws its way partially back from mid to endweek.

I think that its recently been a case of three steps backward and one forward. It is clearly on a downward decline.

Quin_Dub · 31-07-2019 04:25PM

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

The BBC is having a mare the past couple of years. I don't doubt they mean well but their balance and who they interview is beyond crazy. Dont even start me on Question Time.

It's noticeable in the framing of commentary, more in omission than inclusion.

I caught some of the main news on BBC yesterday and there was an update from their "Irish Correspondent" from outside Stormont discussing what Boris Johnson was up to.

In it she talked about the negative impact on a No-Deal Brexit on the Republic of Ireland - Loss of GDP , up to 30k lost jobs etc. but not one single word on the devastating impacts to NI.

To the un-informed , it sounded like all the risks were south of the border.

What they are saying is broadly accurate. It's what they are not saying is the big problem from my viewpoint.

Lackadaisical · 31-07-2019 04:30PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think that its recently been a case of three steps backward and one forward. It is clearly on a downward decline.

Yup. You have to watch the trend, not the fluctuations. The day-to-day trades and speculation causes a flicker up and down, but the general trend is very definitely downwards and has been for months.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the currency markets aren't all-knowing anymore than anyone else is. They're just reacting to perceptions of risk or where they can make a few coins.

mikep · 31-07-2019 04:35PM

All the coverage at the moment seems to be based on Ireland and how we are being the big bad wolf causing the UK to head towards a no deal..
The rhetoric from Arlene and co. assigns the blame clearly to Ireland..

I suspect Cummings is all over this as it reminds me of the use of the £350 million bus and the "take back control" slogan which effectively derailed all discussion of other Brexit outcomes and won them the vote..

It's quite fascinating but also scary as no UK media seems interested in dissecting the issues and Irish media are heading that way too..

Lately it seems to be all focused on individuals who are allowed put their views forward without being challenged on iy.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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