Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Please note that it is not permitted to have referral links posted in your signature. Keep these links contained in the appropriate forum. Thank you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2055940817/signature-rules

The eBike thread

Options
13567…63

Comments

  • Options
    #62
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,010 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Small EVs like scooters and e-bikes are unarguably great.

    Every car and bus off the road improves the environment for cyclists, pedestrians and the users of these electric things too.

    But like recreational drugs, we just haven't figured out as a society how to think about and regulate them. Cars = alcohol. e-scooters and e-bikes = weed/vaping. Bicycles and walking = teetotal veganism. We all know it'd be better, but not all of us have quite got there yet. :pac:


  • Options
    #63
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    xckjoo wrote: »
    So just to clarify, this doesn't refer to "ebikes" (or pedelecs as I believe they're called) because they require the operator to pedal to move it. If it doesn't have a PAS (pedal sensor) and works off a throttle, it wouldn't be a pedelec and wouldn't be road legal (leaving aside the other requirements for now).
    I'm in two minds about if e-scooters and the like should be 1) allowed and 2) taxed and insured. On the one hand they look like a great way to get around, but on the other hand people will use them badly and are causing issues in all the major cities they've become popular in. There isn't really a place they fit in on our current transport infrastructure. They probably shouldn't be on footpaths because that's for people walking and they don't need to constantly watch out for idiots on scooters. Maybe they would be okay on roads and cycle lanes, but cars and squishy people are not a safe mix. I guess ideally we'd have a different road infrastructure and they'd fit in better, but at the moment everything is built around the car.

    Not sure about tax and insurance either. They should serve to increase peoples ability to commute without a car (desirable to society) but they don'really come with the increase in exercise and health benefits that a bike brings, and the batteries have a significant environmental impact associated. I guess I wouldn't be mad if they brought in tax and insurance requirements but maybe I'm bike biased :D. I still don't see how they can safely fit in to our current transport infrastructure but that doesn't always seem to be a requirement in this country :pac:

    I think it refers to anything partially or fully mechanically powered, including pedelecs.


  • Options
    #64
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    I think it refers to anything partially or fully mechanically powered, including pedelecs.
    Don't think so. AFAIK we are still using the general EU law which is the following (I think)
    Article 1 (h) of Directive 2002/24/EC relating to the type-approval of two or three-wheel motor vehicles legislation stipulates that the Directive does not apply to: “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. As a result of this exclusion, member states classify these vehicles as bicycles.
    Notice in the article you quote that they mention the "push-start" making no difference. The main argument that e-scooters are legal seems to be that a push to start requirement satisfies this pedal assistance requirement. AFAIK we've no specific law related to any of these vehicles in Ireland.


  • Options
    #65
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,823 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    xckjoo wrote: »
    the batteries have a significant environmental impact associated.

    There you are wrong. The lithium in fairly large battery packs is valuable, nobody is going to throw these away. Lithium can be endlessly recycled.


  • Options
    #66
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    unkel wrote: »
    There you are wrong. The lithium in fairly large battery packs is valuable, nobody is going to throw these away. Lithium can be endlessly recycled.
    Even assuming 100% reclamation and reuse of the lithium and ignoring the initial cost of mining it, there's a non-negligible impact in the creation of the battery from the raw materials. This will probably improve over time and is still better than needing to continuously mine and burn fossil fuels, but it has a much higher environmental cost than a standard push scooter or skateboard.

    http://www.epa.gov/dfe/pubs/projects/lbnp/final-li-ion-battery-lca-report.pdf


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #67
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Don't think so. AFAIK we are still using the general EU law which is the following (I think)

    Notice in the article you quote that they mention the "push-start" making no difference. The main argument that e-scooters are legal seems to be that a push to start requirement satisfies this pedal assistance requirement. AFAIK we've no specific law related to any of these vehicles in Ireland.

    The RTA would apply in that case. That seems to be the view of the Gardai too.

    The RTA simply mentions any mechanically propelled vehicle and all these variations of e bikes etc. would come under that definition.

    That being the case a helmet, license, road tax and insurance are all required.


  • Options
    #68
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    The RTA would apply in that case. That seems to be the view of the Gardai too.

    The RTA simply mentions any mechanically propelled vehicle and all these variations of e bikes etc. would come under that definition.

    That being the case a helmet, license, road tax and insurance are all required.
    :confused: You don't need any of those things for a bike.


  • Options
    #69
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    xckjoo wrote: »
    :confused: You don't need any of those things for a bike.

    A push bike isn't "mechanically propelled".


  • Options
    #70
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    A push bike isn't "mechanically propelled".
    Neither is a pedelec. I posted the EU directive they fall under above. They're effectively push bikes as long as they follow the restrictions listed in the directive. There's no ambiguity about this


  • Options
    #71
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Interesting.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escooters-seized-as-gardai-warn-riders-to-stay-off-streets-38330934.html

    .......The Garda spokesman said: "The Road Traffic Act defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means.

    "It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical. Whether or not a vehicle requires a push-start is legally irrelevant.

    "E-scooters and powered skateboards fall into this category, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles. Any users of such vehicles in a public place must have insurance, road tax and a driving licence, with penalties under road traffic laws, including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle."

    The spokesman added: "As it is currently not possible to tax or insure e-scooters or electric skateboards, they are not considered suitable for use in a public place. There is no anomaly within the law."

    What are your views on this?

    Why are shoving this stuff about scooters and skateboards in this thread.

    There is an existing thread that has discussed and argued this stuff to death.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057872702&page=96


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #72
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Neither is a pedelec. I posted the EU directive they fall under above. They're effectively push bikes as long as they follow the restrictions listed in the directive. There's no ambiguity about this

    The Gardai think they are though.

    As I said the view is that the RTA applies, and I can't see how an EU Directive can superceed local laws.


  • Options
    #73
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,344 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    The Gardai think they are though.

    As I said the view is that the RTA applies, and I can't see how an EU Directive can superceed local laws.
    No they don't. You're interpreting the article incorrectly and the Gardai don't make the law. RTA does indeed apply in the same way as it applies to a standard bicycle.


  • Options
    #74
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    xckjoo wrote: »
    No they don't. You're interpreting the article incorrectly and the Gardai don't make the law. RTA does indeed apply in the same way as it applies to a standard bicycle.

    Nope. The Gardai enforce the law. They have seized e bikes of various sorts. Prosecutions are impending. Let the courts decide.

    https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

    That's a bit confusing too.


  • Options
    #75
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html

    That's the section of the RTA 1961 defining a MPV.

    Can anyone explain how that wouldn't apply to all e bikes and pedelcs? The full/ part time power doesn't seem to be relevant.


  • Options
    #76
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    ....I can't see how an EU Directive can superceed local laws.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

    https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/22b190d5-6c62-423a-bab1-9a2c20fbe14a/language-en

    Article 1 (h) ... “cycles with pedal assistance
    which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of
    0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a
    speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. As a result of this exclusion, member
    states should classify these vehicles as bicycles.

    Basically this is bicycle.


  • Options
    #77
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    beauf wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

    https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/22b190d5-6c62-423a-bab1-9a2c20fbe14a/language-en




    Basically this is bicycle.

    Now I have ya, thanks. So limited pedelecs are essentially treated the same as push bikes.

    But bigger powered e bikes and electric skateboards are subject to RTA?


  • Options
    #78
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Nope. The Gardai enforce the law. They have seized e bikes of various sorts. Prosecutions are impending. Let the courts decide.

    https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

    That's a bit confusing too.

    Don't rely on RSA information as Gospel.


  • Options
    #79
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Now I have ya, thanks. So limited pedelecs are essentially treated the same as push bikes.

    But bigger powered e bikes and electric skateboards are subject to RTA?

    Yup.

    AFAIK other countries may have addition laws that permit other types of eBikes etc.


  • Options
    #80
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    beauf wrote: »
    Don't rely on RSA information as Gospel.

    I won't.


  • Options
    #81
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    hence the 2nd post in this thread....
    cojomo2 wrote: »
    Fyi, anything over 250w will not be road legal. It also needs to be setup in such a way that the motor only gives assistance while the user pedals and cuts out as soon as they stop.

    ...but as others said. How will anyone know if you use a motor with more power?

    ...especially if you cycle with due car and attention and within the limits. (whatever they are).


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #82
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    beauf wrote: »
    Yup.

    AFAIK other countries may have addition laws that permit other types of eBikes etc.


    For example...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws


  • Options
    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lads can we for once just keep this on topic related to the Joy of building an electric bike and not throw legalities, politics or environmental views.

    This is after all a hobby really and it's the joy of building something and getting away from computer screens that made it all the more fun for me, that and the sheer thrill of ebiking especially on the first kit !


  • Options
    #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    beauf wrote: »
    hence the 2nd post in this thread....



    ...but as others said. How will anyone know if you use a motor with more power?

    ...especially if you cycle with due car and attention and within the limits. (whatever they are).

    They don't , when ebikes get their EN15194 they are not tested for power only acceleration and top speed.

    Everyone knows a real 250 watt ebike is useless and the 250 watt is more of a guideline than anything.

    Bosch, Panasonic, Brose etc etc all run well above 250 watts.

    Power to the motor or power from the battery, there is no clear distinction......


  • Options
    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So Unkel, after all that , what is your frame of mind now ? lol


  • Options
    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is the first gen Bosch Ebike motor. Notice the watts ? 750, yes that's right. Today they are probably pulling 1 Kw or more, but that's battery power.

    So , don't get too hung up on legalities !



  • Options
    #87
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Lads can we for once just keep this on topic related to the Joy of building an electric bike and not throw legalities, politics or environmental views.

    This is after all a hobby really and it's the joy of building something and getting away from computer screens that made it all the more fun for me, that and the sheer thrill of ebiking especially on the first kit !

    I reckon the other issues are all highly relevant.


  • Options
    #88
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,823 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So Unkel, after all that , what is your frame of mind now ? lol

    Still not sure, but for now I'm thinking of going 500W front hub with 24V or 36V pack. And no plans to accelerate max from idle (don't want fork to break) or ever go above 25km/h, so not attracting attention to myself. Be a good boy on a nearly 100% legal pedelec :D


  • Options
    #89
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You're ok to cycle above that speed.....

    When I see a lot of the expensive OEM ebikes I see proprietary batteries. I wonder what happens when that bike is say 4yrs old. Will you still be able to get that battery. For that reason I like the idea of a bike that has standard parts. That you can turn it back to a regular bike if required or change the motor and battery.


  • Options
    #90
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,823 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    beauf wrote: »
    You're ok to cycle above that speed.....

    On 100% leg power? No thanks :p


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    I reckon the other issues are all highly relevant.

    Not really, the discussion isn't about legalities.


Advertisement