xckjoo wrote: » So just to clarify, this doesn't refer to "ebikes" (or pedelecs as I believe they're called) because they require the operator to pedal to move it. If it doesn't have a PAS (pedal sensor) and works off a throttle, it wouldn't be a pedelec and wouldn't be road legal (leaving aside the other requirements for now). I'm in two minds about if e-scooters and the like should be 1) allowed and 2) taxed and insured. On the one hand they look like a great way to get around, but on the other hand people will use them badly and are causing issues in all the major cities they've become popular in. There isn't really a place they fit in on our current transport infrastructure. They probably shouldn't be on footpaths because that's for people walking and they don't need to constantly watch out for idiots on scooters. Maybe they would be okay on roads and cycle lanes, but cars and squishy people are not a safe mix. I guess ideally we'd have a different road infrastructure and they'd fit in better, but at the moment everything is built around the car. Not sure about tax and insurance either. They should serve to increase peoples ability to commute without a car (desirable to society) but they don'really come with the increase in exercise and health benefits that a bike brings, and the batteries have a significant environmental impact associated. I guess I wouldn't be mad if they brought in tax and insurance requirements but maybe I'm bike biased . I still don't see how they can safely fit in to our current transport infrastructure but that doesn't always seem to be a requirement in this country :pac:
Henry Ford III wrote: » I think it refers to anything partially or fully mechanically powered, including pedelecs.
Article 1 (h) of Directive 2002/24/EC relating to the type-approval of two or three-wheel motor vehicles legislation stipulates that the Directive does not apply to: “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. As a result of this exclusion, member states classify these vehicles as bicycles.
xckjoo wrote: » the batteries have a significant environmental impact associated.
unkel wrote: » There you are wrong. The lithium in fairly large battery packs is valuable, nobody is going to throw these away. Lithium can be endlessly recycled.
xckjoo wrote: » Don't think so. AFAIK we are still using the general EU law which is the following (I think) Notice in the article you quote that they mention the "push-start" making no difference. The main argument that e-scooters are legal seems to be that a push to start requirement satisfies this pedal assistance requirement. AFAIK we've no specific law related to any of these vehicles in Ireland.
Henry Ford III wrote: » The RTA would apply in that case. That seems to be the view of the Gardai too. The RTA simply mentions any mechanically propelled vehicle and all these variations of e bikes etc. would come under that definition. That being the case a helmet, license, road tax and insurance are all required.
xckjoo wrote: » You don't need any of those things for a bike.
Henry Ford III wrote: » A push bike isn't "mechanically propelled".
Henry Ford III wrote: » Interesting.https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escooters-seized-as-gardai-warn-riders-to-stay-off-streets-38330934.html .......The Garda spokesman said: "The Road Traffic Act defines a mechanically propelled vehicle as a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means. "It also includes a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical, or partly electrical and partly mechanical. Whether or not a vehicle requires a push-start is legally irrelevant. "E-scooters and powered skateboards fall into this category, and are therefore considered to be mechanically propelled vehicles. Any users of such vehicles in a public place must have insurance, road tax and a driving licence, with penalties under road traffic laws, including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle." The spokesman added: "As it is currently not possible to tax or insure e-scooters or electric skateboards, they are not considered suitable for use in a public place. There is no anomaly within the law." What are your views on this?
xckjoo wrote: » Neither is a pedelec. I posted the EU directive they fall under above. They're effectively push bikes as long as they follow the restrictions listed in the directive. There's no ambiguity about this
Henry Ford III wrote: » The Gardai think they are though. As I said the view is that the RTA applies, and I can't see how an EU Directive can superceed local laws.
xckjoo wrote: » No they don't. You're interpreting the article incorrectly and the Gardai don't make the law. RTA does indeed apply in the same way as it applies to a standard bicycle.
Henry Ford III wrote: » ....I can't see how an EU Directive can superceed local laws.
Article 1 (h) ... “cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling”. As a result of this exclusion, member states should classify these vehicles as bicycles.
beauf wrote: » http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/printhttps://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/22b190d5-6c62-423a-bab1-9a2c20fbe14a/language-en Basically this is bicycle.
Henry Ford III wrote: » Nope. The Gardai enforce the law. They have seized e bikes of various sorts. Prosecutions are impending. Let the courts decide.https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf That's a bit confusing too.
Henry Ford III wrote: » Now I have ya, thanks. So limited pedelecs are essentially treated the same as push bikes. But bigger powered e bikes and electric skateboards are subject to RTA?
beauf wrote: » Don't rely on RSA information as Gospel.
cojomo2 wrote: » Fyi, anything over 250w will not be road legal. It also needs to be setup in such a way that the motor only gives assistance while the user pedals and cuts out as soon as they stop.
beauf wrote: » Yup. AFAIK other countries may have addition laws that permit other types of eBikes etc.
beauf wrote: » hence the 2nd post in this thread.... ...but as others said. How will anyone know if you use a motor with more power? ...especially if you cycle with due car and attention and within the limits. (whatever they are).
Deleted User wrote: » Lads can we for once just keep this on topic related to the Joy of building an electric bike and not throw legalities, politics or environmental views. This is after all a hobby really and it's the joy of building something and getting away from computer screens that made it all the more fun for me, that and the sheer thrill of ebiking especially on the first kit !
Deleted User wrote: » So Unkel, after all that , what is your frame of mind now ? lol
beauf wrote: » You're ok to cycle above that speed.....
Henry Ford III wrote: » I reckon the other issues are all highly relevant.
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