MPs just put a gun to DUP's head

Imreoir2 · 11-07-2019 9:55pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Wonder are the DUP happy enough with this, if the Commons brings in gay marriage for the North, it’ll mean they don’t have to confront their base and it’s ludicrous position.

Given that these are the same people who think it is outrageous if a council wants to stop people burning a huge pile of pallets on council property, my gut says no, they are not at all happy about it. There is literally nothing that would mark them out as cynical pragmatists, they are ideologues to the core.

FrancieBrady · 11-07-2019 10:11pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Wonder are the DUP happy enough with this, if the Commons brings in gay marriage for the North, it’ll mean they don’t have to confront their base and it’s ludicrous position.

A few decades ago we realised that religious dogma was being used to control people by those who were clearly not following any religious doctrine. We got rid of that, and are well down the road of separating church and state.

The DUP control using dogma, they are much more dogmatic than RC dogma ever was.
But DUP leadership are the same as RC leaders, they will, because they have yet to find an island that is feasibly defend-able, let this pass with the same bluster and Never! Never", Well Ok then' rabble rousing as the Fleg, Drumcree, The GFA, The Anglo Irish Agreement etc etc and continue trying to find an island that is credible and defend-able.

Good luck with that Arlene.

s7ryf3925pivug · 11-07-2019 10:11pm

Gotta say I didn't realise the state of unionist politics in NI until the DUP got into this coalition government. I assumed they followed in the same vein as David Trimble and aside from the whole nazi bigot aspect they would have ideas in line with Scottish or English people, much more secular and progressive.

FrancieBrady · 12-07-2019 12:11am

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Yes, but much like the constant stream of articles about bendy bananas and regulations banning prawn cocktail crisps creating an atmospere where the British people are ready to believe just about any nonsence about the EU, people in Ireland north and south seem happy to believe and old codswallop when it comes to the Irish language.

Well, codswallop about northern Ireland is quite prevalent in our media. Caveat Emptor as they say.

Sleepy · 12-07-2019 12:50pm

So the best thing that Sinn Fein can do for the people of Northern Ireland is to stay out of parliament.

Wonder if we could get them to do the same favour for those of us in the Republic?

end of the road · 12-07-2019 1:37pm

Sleepy wrote: »

So the best thing that Sinn Fein can do for the people of Northern Ireland is to stay out of parliament.

Wonder if we could get them to do the same favour for those of us in the Republic?

no thankfully.

Melanchthon · 13-07-2019 12:33pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Why is there such a lack of accurate information when it comes to the reality of Irish language provisions? So many people seem to think any number of outlandish things are true when it comes to the language. It's like the bonkers things Brexiteers think are true about the EU. It is not true at all that all Gardaí must be competent Irish speakers. The Gardaí were taken to task a few years ago becuase nine of the ten gardaí stationed in the Donegall Gaeltacht had no Irish. Since then the Gardaí have tried to recruit 10% Irish speakers just so they can try to provide a basic service through Irish to the public.

Did some googling and I was out of date in what I thought Garda language requirements were, the Irish language competency requirement only changed in the 2000's and noteworthy SF opposed the changes
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/sf-slams-move-to-relax-garda-language-requirement-171263.html

So its bullsh-t to say its an outlandish view considering most of the force likely entered with requirements that your saying are "bonkers" and SF who are most vocal about the act are on record with their support for retaining the requirement for a Irish language competency.

Phoebas wrote: »

Polling numbers are one thing, but translating that into seats is another thing entirely.
.

True but the idea that the Lib Dems are going to sweep into power is pure metropolitan bubble thinking apart from in a few seats Labour and the Conservatives have a much deeper attachments and the Brexiteers are motivated, they had boots on the ground leafleting etc even in the highly remain constituencies, I may be being cynical but I am skeptical of the level of actual motivation among strong Remainers as when it really counted in 2016 they didn't do the leg work.
This is a good read and it ends with an important message that I am trying to get at above.
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/has-there-been-a-shift-in-support-for-brexit/

Given the potential difficulties that faces all polling, the Remain lead is both too narrow and too reliant on the views of those who did not vote in June 2016 (who might or might not vote in another ballot) for anything other than caution to be the order of the day.

Stop moaning ffs · 13-07-2019 12:50pm

Do the DUP still have the veto in Stormont? If and when it gets up and running again

Loafing Oaf · 13-07-2019 1:33pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Do the DUP still have the veto in Stormont? If and when it gets up and running again

As far as I understand no. A cohort of 30 members has a sort of veto through the 'petition of concern' but the DUP now have only 27.

I'm trying to figure out what happens in a scenario where the deadline passes and the abortion/SSM legislation is 'imposed' by Westminster. Could any cobbled-together group of 30+ anti-abortion members use the petition to overturn the legislation?

Stop moaning ffs · 13-07-2019 1:35pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

As far as I understand no. A cohort of 30 members has a sort of veto through the 'petition of concern' but the DUP now have only 27.

I'm trying to figure out what happens in a scenario where the deadline passes and the abortion/SSM legislation is 'imposed' by Westminster. Could any cobbled-together group of 30+ anti-abortion members use the petition to overturn the legislation?

I thought I’d heard their veto was gone. Thanks.

Sean.3516 · 13-07-2019 3:34pm

Gotta say, although I agree Westminster probably has the right to legislate abortion and same-sex marriage into NI, I think it’s wrong for them to do it.
There are reasons for the lack of a power-sharing govt in Stormont that are complex and extend far beyond abortion and same-sex marriage. For Westminster to use hot-button social issues as leverage here is a pretty cynical move.

Stop moaning ffs · 13-07-2019 3:52pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Gotta say, although I agree Westminster probably has the right to legislate abortion and same-sex marriage into NI, I think it’s wrong for them to do it.
There are reasons for the lack of a power-sharing govt in Stormont that are complex and extend far beyond abortion and same-sex marriage. For Westminster to use hot-button social issues as leverage here is a pretty cynical move.

It points out the stupidity and intransigence of parties involved.
One of which would never ever allow equal rights or women’s autonomy to become law if they had their way.
Rights that even their own base want to see passed bit their decrepit orange order master won’t allow.

Faugheen · 13-07-2019 4:12pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Gotta say, although I agree Westminster probably has the right to legislate abortion and same-sex marriage into NI, I think it’s wrong for them to do it.
There are reasons for the lack of a power-sharing govt in Stormont that are complex and extend far beyond abortion and same-sex marriage. For Westminster to use hot-button social issues as leverage here is a pretty cynical move.

In fairness, all parties were warned that Westminster would have no choice but to impose direct rule after a while, and the GFA allows for this when there's no sitting Executive.

For the laws they passed, they were bringing the North in line with the rest of the UK and they were able to do so because MLAs can't sort their **** out. It's not like Westminster just went rogue here.

Sean.3516 · 13-07-2019 4:17pm

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It points out the stupidity and intransigence of parties involved.
One of which would never ever allow equal rights or women’s autonomy to become law if they had their way.
Rights that even their own base want to see passed bit their decrepit orange order master won’t allow.

If they have the democratic support to get their way, then why shouldn’t they?

You’re making the same error that Westminster is in thinking you know the minds of the people of Northern Ireland better than they themselves and are prepared to hand down a ruling from above as their obvious intellectual betters, because they’re all a bunch of rubes after all?

The fact is that even if you disagree with them, these are hot-button issues of conscience. It’s intellectual sneering of the highest order to say that because Ireland and most of Britain has enshrined this in law, that NI should have it foisted on them from above and invoking a definition of rights that NI has not consented to.

Sean.3516 · 13-07-2019 4:20pm

Faugheen wrote: »

In fairness, all parties were warned that Westminster would have no choice but to impose direct rule after a while, and the GFA allows for this when there's no sitting Executive.

For the laws they passed, they were bringing the North in line with the rest of the UK and they were able to do so because MLAs can't sort their **** out. It's not like Westminster just went rogue here.

What if NI doesn’t wish to be brought into line with the rest of Britain on these issues? I’m not disputing that Westminster can do it. I’m saying they should’nt have.

Faugheen · 13-07-2019 4:24pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

What if NI doesn’t wish to be brought into line with the rest of Britain on these issues? I’m not disputing that Westminster can do it. I’m saying they should’nt have.

The DUP insist that Northern Ireland shouldn't be any different to the rest of the UK.

So the UK brought the North in line.

They can't have it both ways.

And I would guess that a referendum would easily pass. The only ones that oppose this are the DUP, and they no longer hold a majority in Stormont even if it was sitting.

batgoat · 13-07-2019 4:30pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

What if NI doesn’t wish to be brought into line with the rest of Britain on these issues? I’m not disputing that Westminster can do it. I’m saying they should’nt have.

If they aren't willing to do their jobs, then decisions will be made on their behalf... Also it's an issue of conscience for a party that are one of the medieval in Western Europe...

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2019 4:40pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

What if NI doesn’t wish to be brought into line with the rest of Britain on these issues? I’m not disputing that Westminster can do it. I’m saying they should’nt have.

It is a sign that the artificially constructed state has failed. The simple fact is that it cannot govern itself and Britain cannot govern it. It has failed because it's construct is inherently wrong.

s7ryf3925pivug · 13-07-2019 7:05pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is a sign that the artificially constructed state has failed. The simple fact is that it cannot govern itself and Britain cannot govern it. It has failed because it's construct is inherently wrong.

so you're saying ireland should still be in the UK? I don't think that would be ideal these days.

FrancieBrady · 13-07-2019 7:11pm

Brycen Chubby Clergy wrote: »

so you're saying ireland should still be in the UK? I don't think that would be ideal these days.

No, we fought and won our freedom and are, if anything, an example of the social, political cohesion that can be achieved when you run your own affairs. The partitioned bit has always been a drag on us too and needs to be sorted out.

Imreoir2 · 13-07-2019 11:07pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

What if NI doesn’t wish to be brought into line with the rest of Britain on these issues? I’m not disputing that Westminster can do it. I’m saying they should’nt have.

Who are NI? If it is the people of NI all is well, they clearly support both abortion and SSM. Only the DUP are opposed, but thankfully they do not represent majority opinion on either issue.

steddyeddy · 13-07-2019 11:30pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

What if NI doesn’t wish to be brought into line with the rest of Britain on these issues? I’m not disputing that Westminster can do it. I’m saying they should’nt have.

Well the DUP have been arguing that NI should be treated exactly as the rest of the UK. They insisted on it being no different from the UK when the EU suggested NI stay in the custom's union. It's hard to feel sympathy for the DUP.

Stop moaning ffs · 14-07-2019 8:29am

Sean.3516 wrote: »

If they have the democratic support to get their way, then why shouldn’t they?

You’re making the same error that Westminster is in thinking you know the minds of the people of Northern Ireland better than they themselves and are prepared to hand down a ruling from above as their obvious intellectual betters, because they’re all a bunch of rubes after all?

The fact is that even if you disagree with them, these are hot-button issues of conscience. It’s intellectual sneering of the highest order to say that because Ireland and most of Britain has enshrined this in law, that NI should have it foisted on them from above and invoking a definition of rights that NI has not consented to.

Marriage equality and abortion both have massive support across all communities in the north. That’s ordinary people supporting it.
The DUP are not Northern Ireland. They don’t even represent their own bases wishes, they certainly don’t represent the entire province.
And as we have seen they aren’t fit to govern and refuse to, so decisions will be made for them until such time as they decide to be mature and get to work.
That’s not intellectual sneering, that’s just stating the facts.

Loafing Oaf · 14-07-2019 11:52am

If these laws are ultimately passed, can we append "pulled the trigger now they're dead" to the thread title?:P

FrancieBrady · 14-07-2019 1:28pm

Hadn't realised that David Trimble (that master of changing oars midstream) had done a complete volte face on his position on SSM when his daughter married her partner.

There is hope yet.

22-07-2019 4:13pm

Westminster is now going to legislate for another piece of legislation for the Six Counties:

Domestic abuse bill: Coercive control to become offence in Northern Ireland

This 'coercive control' stuff could backfire on womens' rights if men start bringing women to court for using sex as a weapon...

ohnonotgmail · 22-07-2019 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Westminster is now going to legislate for another piece of legislation for the Six Counties:

Domestic abuse bill: Coercive control to become offence in Northern Ireland

This 'coercive control' stuff could backfire on womens' rights if men start bringing women to court for using sex as a weapon...

how in the name of jaysus did you get from that article to

This 'coercive control' stuff could backfire on womens' rights if men start bringing women to court for using sex as a weapon...

22-07-2019 4:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

how in the name of jaysus did you get from that article to

From the article:

Coercive control includes psychological abuse and non-violent intimidation.

It's not really plausible that there would not be cases where sex is used as a weapon to intimidate/control a partner.

ohnonotgmail · 22-07-2019 4:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

From the article:

It's not really plausible that there would not be cases where sex is used as a weapon to intimidate/control a partner.

not having sex with somebody is psychological abuse?

22-07-2019 4:39pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not having sex with somebody is psychological abuse?

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

MPs just put a gun to DUP's head

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