EU to recommend abolishing DST

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-04-2019 5:51pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Meanwhile, I recall my mother having trouble getting us to sleep on bright, sunny evenings in summer. If it was gloomy, it was easier. I guess your aunts and mother didn’t come up against this problem but my mother did.

Guess snowflakes go back farther than you think. :rolleyes:

Or, alternatively, maybe it’s time to stop wheeling out that tired phrase? Especially in situations where it doesn’t apply?

There were snowflakes in the 19C too and no DST.

In winter I get up at night
And dress by yellow candle-light.
In summer, quite the other way,
I have to go to bed by day.

I have to go to bed and see
The birds still hopping on the tree,
Or hear the grown-up people's feet
Still going past me in the street.

And does it not seem hard to you,
When all the sky is clear and blue,
And I should like so much to play,
To have to go to bed by day?

Robert Louis Stephenson.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-04-2019 5:53pm

hognef wrote: »

In large parts of Norway, sunrise in the depths of winter doesn't happen until 9:00, 9:30, 10:00 or later. Most schools start at 8:30, yet plenty of kids walk to school every morning. Yet, I'd fully expect them to follow Germany, et al, onto permanent summer time, like the good "EU" citizens that they are.

Definitely a non-issue in my book.

Sunrise at 11am would be nuts.

SPDUB · 02-04-2019 6:44pm

topper75 wrote: »

Whole thread reveals a general ignorance of how the EU thing works. Whatever about the merits of their decision to leave, we can't really laugh at Brits for not being clued in.

Two key points:
-EU law trumps all Irish law. What Brussels says - goes. We decided this in the treaty referendums. Keeping the clock change is not up to 'Leo'.
-EU is no longer a piggy bank for us - we are net contributors nowadays. Likely to be even moreso with Brits gone.

Sorry had to get those off my chest.

Haven't seen anyone answering my question from a few days ago as to what is the punishment if we say we want to stay in line with NI

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-04-2019 6:47pm

SPDUB wrote: »

Haven't seen anyone answering my question from a few days ago as to what is the punishment if we say we want to stay in line with NI

European law is supreme. And as far as I know this will be law, not just a directive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

hognef · 02-04-2019 7:19pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Sunrise at 11am would be nuts.

If the options are sun between 10 and 15, or between 11 and 16, many might still prefer the latter.

judeboy101 · 02-04-2019 7:24pm

hognef wrote: »

In large parts of Norway, sunrise in the depths of winter doesn't happen until 9:00, 9:30, 10:00 or later. Most schools start at 8:30, yet plenty of kids walk to school every morning. Yet, I'd fully expect them to follow Germany, et al, onto permanent summer time, like the good "EU" citizens that they are.

Definitely a non-issue in my book.

Norway isn't in the EU

hognef · 02-04-2019 7:26pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Norway isn't in the EU

Hence my "EU" rather than EU.

Norway often seem to be more compliant with EU regulations than EU countries themselves.

SPDUB · 02-04-2019 8:58pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

European law is supreme. And as far as I know this will be law, not just a directive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law

But what would be the penalty and how foolish would the EU look , after backing us about the backstop , in trying to "punish" us .

kenmc · 02-04-2019 9:06pm

SPDUB wrote: »

Haven't seen anyone answering my question from a few days ago as to what is the punishment if we say we want to stay in line with NI

There's no need to try stay on time zone as ni, sure they're already 30 years behind, another hour won't change jack

Franz Von Peppercorn · 02-04-2019 9:15pm

SPDUB wrote: »

But what would be the penalty and how foolish would the EU look , after backing us about the backstop , in trying to "punish" us .

No penalty because it’s the law. It’s like asking what would happen if Kerry ignored the Irish laws on drunk driving. They don’t have that authority. The Dail can’t overrule European law.

Mantis Toboggan · 02-04-2019 9:56pm

Are we sure this will be law?

There were politicians on the radio saying this is only a directive and we don't have to implement it.

dxhound2005 · 03-04-2019 12:12am

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Are we sure this will be law?

There were politicians on the radio saying this is only a directive and we don't have to implement it.

The current arrangement is due to a Directive. And Directives have legal force.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32000L0084

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)

17-07-2019 12:50am

Government doesn't want this now it seems because of the time difference it would cause with NI if the UK Brexits and doesn't follow the EU's lead on this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-set-to-reject-eu-proposal-to-end-daylight-savings-time-1.3958592?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

branie2 · 17-07-2019 12:58am

Bright idea

Strazdas · 17-07-2019 1:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

Government doesn't want this now it seems because of the time difference it would cause with NI if the UK Brexits and doesn't follow the EU's lead on this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-set-to-reject-eu-proposal-to-end-daylight-savings-time-1.3958592?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Though the article makes clear Ireland may not be able to stop this becoming EU law. We haven't heard the last of this....if it's EU law and the continent changes its official time zones, this will throw up all sorts of problems

Blinky Plebum · 17-07-2019 4:36am

Deleted User wrote: »

Government doesn't want this now it seems because of the time difference it would cause with NI if the UK Brexits and doesn't follow the EU's lead on this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-set-to-reject-eu-proposal-to-end-daylight-savings-time-1.3958592?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

About time they came to their senses.

The EU really needs to cop on in general regarding brexit and realise that some allowances have to be made for the one country that shares a land border with the UK, the EU along with the UK political establishment have really show how little they think of Ireland over the past few years.

ILoveYourVibes · 17-07-2019 4:40am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So it will not get bright till close on 10am in the west in the dead of winter.

Stupid idea.

We just stick with the added hr of daylight all year round.

No issues with it.

I think it's a great idea. :P

Working class heroes · 17-07-2019 6:45am

Blinky Plebum wrote: »

About time they came to their senses.

The EU really needs to cop on in general regarding brexit and realise that some allowances have to be made for the one country that shares a land border with the UK, the EU along with the UK political establishment have really show how little they think of Ireland over the past few years.

Stop talking nonsense.

Akrasia · 17-07-2019 6:53am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Government doesn't want this now it seems because of the time difference it would cause with NI if the UK Brexits and doesn't follow the EU's lead on this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-set-to-reject-eu-proposal-to-end-daylight-savings-time-1.3958592?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Ah FFS.

Ireland are the dominant partner in the NI Ireland relationship, and the EU are the bigger entity in the UK EU relationship. Ireland needs to stand with Europe and stop letting the UK dictate our policies. Especially in the current political climate .

Hamsterchops · 17-07-2019 7:09am

What about all our atomic clocks?

Many Irish households and businesses have so called Atomic clocks which get their time signal from Cumbria in England, so if we change our time zone what happens to these clocks?

I know one business in Dublin which spent thousands on having one installed on the front of their building, it looks like a regular clock but the mechanism is made & tuned to the UK signal, then I look around our house an and I notice we have at least two of these analogue clocks (which adjust the hands themselves twice yearly).

17-07-2019 7:12am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

What about all our atomic clocks?

Many Irish households and businesses have so called Atomic clocks which get their time signal from Cumbria in England, so if we change our time zone what happens to these clocks?

I know one business in Dublin which spent thousands on having one installed on the front of their building, it looks like a regular clock but the mechanism is made & tuned to the UK signal, then I look around our house an and I notice we have at least two of these clocks ...

Not a problem, they all have settings that will allow an offset of x number of hours.

Anyway, I still think we should stay with summer and winter time, but hag a much shorter "wintertime" period.

For example late November to mid February for winter time and summer time for the rest of the year. This avoids sunrise after 09:00 for nearly three months of the year.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-07-2019 7:14am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

We just stick with the added hr of daylight all year round.

No issues with it.

I think it's a great idea. :P

For the hundred and fifth time.

That hour of daylight in the evening in winter is not as valuable as the hour of daylight in the morning in winter.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-07-2019 7:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a problem, they all have settings that will allow an offset of x number of hours.

Anyway, I still think we should stay with summer and winter time, but hag a much shorter "wintertime" period.

For example late November to mid February for winter time and summer time for the rest of the year. This avoids sunrise after 09:00 for nearly three months of the year.

Yes that would be ideal, but unfortunately it is not a option.

Hamsterchops · 17-07-2019 7:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a problem, they all have settings that will allow an offset of x number of hours.

No not that I'm aware of, maybe you're talking about the digital version whereby you can press a button to offset the hour!
Analogue clocks (with hands) can't be adjusted in this way as the mechanism is sealed & set to the time signal from Cumbria.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 17-07-2019 7:39am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For the hundred and fifth time.

That hour of daylight in the evening in winter is not as valuable as the hour of daylight in the morning in winter.

For you perhaps. Many, me included, would get greater value from the hour in the evening.

highdef · 17-07-2019 7:40am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For the hundred and fifth time.

That hour of daylight in the evening in winter is not as valuable as the hour of daylight in the morning in winter.

In your opinion, perhaps it is however people have differing opinions.

I, for example, find that hour of daylight in the evening to be far more valuable than the hour of daylight in the morning. I couldn't care less if it's dark at the start of my work day. I do however care if it's bright when I finish my work day, exit work time and enter personal time.

Supercell · 17-07-2019 7:58am

Why 82% of Irish people seem to think bordering a country in a different timezone is such a game changer is beyond me. Really, is one hour time difference such a massive big deal?, SMH.
Doesnt matter now I suppose as Boris will never go for the (Euro) time change so debating it now is pointless.

prunudo · 17-07-2019 8:21am

Its a very divisive subject, I don't believe that the extra hour in the evening will be as beneficial as some make it out to be.
One point to note though, I think a lot of people will choose all year summertime as it sounds like the happy, fluffy option where everything is full of roses and we all can exercise and have a fun filled life after work during the winter months.
I suspect that after 2 winters of dark mornings there will be a review of the situation.

ixoy · 17-07-2019 8:28am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For the hundred and fifth time.

That hour of daylight in the evening in winter is not as valuable as the hour of daylight in the morning in winter.

And saying it a 106th time won't make many of us agree because we've got different uses of our times and would prefer more time in our evenings.

kenmc · 17-07-2019 8:36am

Typical bloody gombeen politicians. Most people in all polls done at the time voted to abolish the time shift and stay in summer time. So of course the gubberment head the other way.

I'm convinced they don't share a single brain cell between the entire dail.

REBELSAFC · 17-07-2019 8:42am

Supercell wrote: »

Why 82% of Irish people seem to think bordering a country in a different timezone is such a game changer is beyond me. Really, is one hour time difference such a massive big deal?, SMH.
Doesnt matter now I suppose as Boris will never go for the (Euro) time change so debating it now is pointless.

I've been to places in Australia and Canada where neighbouring states have different time zones and it causes no problems. Why would having the North in a different time zone cause any major issue for the vast majority of people in Ireland?

FWIW I'm all in favour of having an hour brighter in the evenings in winter. Dark mornings wouldn't bother me. Everyone I have talked to about the issue has the same opinion.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-07-2019 8:47am

But it's not about the use of your time in the winter evenings it's about the astrology and meteorology of winter evenings.

The weather tends to be poor in winter and I thus the availability of usable light is limited.

With DST it gets dusk in the west of Ireland around 4.45 in deepest winter , but it's before then that you see house, street and traffic lights on etc,
The night is creeping in, beyond 4.30pm there is not much usable daylight.

So in a all year summer time that usable daylight won't get you far beyond 5.30pm

The notion that people can get a full extra hour usable daylight on a winter's evening if flawed.

But go on, go for it, but don't say I didn't warn you.

voluntary · 17-07-2019 8:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

Government doesn't want this now it seems because of the time difference it would cause with NI if the UK Brexits and doesn't follow the EU's lead on this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-set-to-reject-eu-proposal-to-end-daylight-savings-time-1.3958592?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

In my view we should not bend before the UK. The UK would could change too and likely would after a year or two.

voluntary · 17-07-2019 8:57am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So in a all year summer time that usable daylight won't get you far beyond 5.30pm

If we want more evening sun, we should move to earlier working hours, from 9-5 to 7-3

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-07-2019 8:59am

Delirah. The current system is the best compromise. I would not be able to cope with the darker mornings in winter. January was already tough for me.

prunudo · 17-07-2019 9:03am

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Delirah. The current system is the best compromise.

I think thats something thats very lacking in this discussion.

voluntary · 17-07-2019 9:03am

Supercell wrote: »

Why 82% of Irish people seem to think bordering a country in a different timezone is such a game changer is beyond me. Really, is one hour time difference such a massive big deal?, SMH.
Doesnt matter now I suppose as Boris will never go for the (Euro) time change so debating it now is pointless.

Yeah, no really an issue in an era of smartphones which change time automatically. Most people wouldn't even notice.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-07-2019 9:05am

prunudo wrote: »

Its a very divisive subject, I don't believe that the extra hour in the evening will be as beneficial as some make it out to be.
One point to note though, I think a lot of people will choose all year summertime as it sounds like the happy, fluffy option where everything is full of roses and we all can exercise and have a fun filled life after work during the winter months.
I suspect that after 2 winters of dark mornings there will be a review of the situation.

Absolutely.

prunudo wrote: »

I think thats something thats very lacking is this discussion.

Yup.

If we had to choose, I’d go with GMT year round but the system we have now is the one that takes into consideration everyone.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-07-2019 9:06am

voluntary wrote: »

If we want more evening sun, we should move to earlier working hours, from 9-5 to 7-3

For sure.

I worked in Germany and really liked heading out at 7am and home mid afternoon.

But are you going to get a whole nation/culture to change their lifestyle for the sake of not moving the dial on a clock twice a year ?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-07-2019 9:08am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For sure.

I worked in Germany and really liked heading out at 7am and home mid afternoon.

But are you going to get a whole nation/culture to change their lifestyle for the sake of not moving the dial on a clock twice a year ?

Yes, why is this such an imposition to some? Especially as phones and computers automatically update.

voluntary · 17-07-2019 9:08am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For sure.

I worked in Germany and really liked heading out at 7am and home mid afternoon.

But are you going to get a whole nation/culture to change their lifestyle for the sake of not moving the dial on a clock twice a year ?

I'd personally do both. Move the nation to wake up early and also abolish the DST. I worked 7-3 before, it's like having an extra day when you finish your job. I liked that.

Supercell · 17-07-2019 9:09am

REBELSAFC wrote: »

I've been to places in Australia and Canada where neighbouring states have different time zones and it causes no problems. Why would having the North in a different time zone cause any major issue for the vast majority of people in Ireland?

FWIW I'm all in favour of having an hour brighter in the evenings in winter. Dark mornings wouldn't bother me. Everyone I have talked to about the issue has the same opinion.

Well apparently 82% of the country seems to think it is which beggars belief:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-to-oppose-eu-plans-to-scrap-daylight-saving-time-38320350.html

The EU is seeking to abolish the twice-yearly clock change, but there are fears in Ireland that this could result in two time zones on the island after Brexit.

It is understood this is the main reason Mr Flanagan is expected to cite when seeking approval from his ministerial colleagues to oppose the EU's proposals.

The consultation found that while the public would generally favour lighter evenings in winter, 82pc of those surveyed opposed any measure that resulted in different time zones on the island of Ireland.

Democracy in action, like Brexit! , cannot help but feel these polls were not impartial and biased towards don't abolish.
Certainly thats how its being interpreted by Flanagan - despite the majority being in favour of abolishing DST, the fact that 82% "oppose" border time differences is more important..how do you decide which carries more weight?
One could argue that all over the world borders and even countries have different timezones and somehow life goes on so surely this viewpoint is irrational and should be less important than the majority view of abolish?

Bollix to Brexit!

17-07-2019 9:11am

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For the hundred and fifth time.

That hour of daylight in the evening in winter is not as valuable as the hour of daylight in the morning in winter.

The hour of daylight is useless in the morning, good for nothing I have no idea how you and a small minority of people think it’s useful compared to having it in the evening when it’s actually useable. You can see most people disagree with you so it should indicate to you that the majority think having extra light in the evening is much more valuable.

I really hope the EU follow though on this and force is to stop changing the clocks. Who gives a damn if we have a different time to NI for a few months.

Also focusing on the absolute height of winter for the argument is silly imo. Yes it will still get dark early in the evening but once we get into January even we will start to see it stretch and by feb we will have light much later in the evenings.

Thelonious Monk · 17-07-2019 9:13am

Anyone I ever discussed this with would rather stay in summer time. There's a poll on the journal now at 82% in favour of staying in the time we're in now, and other polls I've seen are similar.
Why is this muppet trying to oppose it? Do this Government ever listen to the people? No one wants minimum unit pricing for alcohol either, but we're all getting it. Argh.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-07-2019 9:29am

Supercell wrote: »

Well apparently 82% of the country seems to think it is which beggars belief:

Democracy in action, like Brexit! , cannot help but feel these polls were not impartial and biased towards don't abolish.
Certainly thats how its being interpreted by Flanagan - despite the majority being in favour of abolishing DST, the fact that 82% "oppose" border time differences is more important..how do you decide which carries more weight?
One could argue that all over the world borders and even countries have different timezones and somehow life goes on so surely this viewpoint is irrational and should be less important than the majority view of abolish?

Bollix to Brexit!

Right but not everyone who likes things as they are or who favours year-round GMT gives a crap about Brexit. I just happen to think personally that the novelty of marginally brighter winter evenings would quickly wear off and then we’d be stuck with deadening, dark mornings for months.

The current system is best and anyone moaning about clock changes - man, I wish I had so few worries.

Thelonious Monk · 17-07-2019 9:48am

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The current system is best and anyone moaning about clock changes - man, I wish I had so few worries.

The majority of people disagree with you. It's a pretty big deal to me that it gets dark at 430 in winter, I absolutely hate it.

Fr Tod Umptious · 17-07-2019 10:02am

Leroy Cuddly Warmonger wrote: »

The hour of daylight is useless in the morning, good for nothing I have no idea how you and a small minority of people think it’s useful compared to having it in the evening when it’s actually useable. You can see most people disagree with you so it should indicate to you that the majority think having extra light in the evening is much more valuable.

I really hope the EU follow though on this and force is to stop changing the clocks. Who gives a damn if we have a different time to NI for a few months.

Also focusing on the absolute height of winter for the argument is silly imo. Yes it will still get dark early in the evening but once we get into January even we will start to see it stretch and by feb we will have light much later in the evenings.

Think about all that goes on in the morning from about 8am to 9.30am

Commutes.
Kids to school (both in cars and on foot)
Deliveries to businesses.
Outdoor work.

Doing all of the above is much easier, and safer, as it is getting bright, rather than when it is still very dark.

In all year summer time it will not be bright until well after 9am, closer to 9.45 in the west.
And even more so in bad weather

Is it really better that it be still dark when all of the above is going on ?
All for the sake of a potential extra hour in the evening in equally bad weather ?

As I said go ahead with it, but my God people will get sick of the dark mornings before long.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-07-2019 10:02am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The majority of people disagree with you. It's a pretty big deal to me that it gets dark at 430 in winter, I absolutely hate it.

Oh, I know. I know they do. Humans are mostly optimists and are imagining the possibilities of this marginal extra evening light when in reality, most people will probably do the square root of fück all with it. Anyone who exercises outdoors regularly would be bemused at the idea of daylight being needed. When I cycled to work, winter was my favourite time of year to do so.

Personally I hate the dark mornings. Even now. I don’t know if people really get how depressing it would be to have six weeks of post-9am darkness and a good few more weeks were it’s dark for most of the hour between 8am and 9am.

And, to be blunt, I don’t really care if the majority disagrees with me. The system we have now takes into account pretty much ever, even the dastardly minority.

Thelonious Monk · 17-07-2019 10:06am

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Personally I hate the dark mornings. Even now. I don’t know if people really get how depressing it would be to have six weeks of post-9am darkness and a good few more weeks were it’s dark for most of the hour between 8am and 9am.

I actually like them, I like cycling to work when it's still dark for some reason. Coming home is a 'mare though.

branie2 · 17-07-2019 10:08am

Changing to winter saving means that Christmas is on the way.

EU to recommend abolishing DST

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