Woops I didn't see you there

OwlsZat · 13-07-2019 11:24PM #1

In the past two years, I know directly of three life threatening age related car accidents.

Firstly, a builder who was renovating my brothers house was knocked down while directing a reversing cement truck onto a straight road. He was wearing a high vis jacket and hard hat which undoubtedly saved his life. The elderly driver said he didn't see him, the driver behind him reported that the accident actually happened while the driver was speeding up.

Shortly afterwards a family member was knocked down while out walking by a very elderly individual in the most perfect weather conditions. Again they weren't seen.

Then most recently, an elderly driver I was behind knocked down a cyclist at some traffic lights despite them crossing while the approaching car was 100 yards away. A common theme appeared again when they remonstrated that the cyclist came out of nowhere.

This topic can polarise people. Nobody wants to unecessarily take peoples right to drive. However, the reality is elderly drivers have the most accidents per mile and people are living longer than ever before. If we can identify these high risk drivers we can first verify they are safe to drive and train them when mild impediments exist. I think the emphasis should be on independent health testing (not the comprised family optician / doctor) and training for how to deal with failing reaction times vision etc..

Our head is so far in the sand on this that the RSA doesn't even record the age of drivers in pedestrian related deaths. How would we know if we have an issue when we don't even record the data?

Am I overstating this issue? Have people observed similar old age related accidents? When I have this conservation everyone seems know someone that has put other road users in danger by continuing to drive. As things stand I can only see this problem getting worse.

kneemos · 13-07-2019 11:34PM

There was a programme on RTE a while back about elderly drivers. A lot of vision and mobility problems.
One in particular had tunnel vision and couldn't see black cars.

policarp · 13-07-2019 11:37PM

Usually AFAIK the older driver is a safer driver.
The male under 30 used to be the most accident prone.
We need some statistics.

One eyed Jack · 13-07-2019 11:43PM

OwlsZat wrote: »

Am I overstating this issue? Have people observed similar old age related accidents? When I have this conservation everyone seems know someone that has put other road users in danger by continuing to drive. As things stand I can only see this problem getting worse.

Yes, yes you are overstating the issue if your claim is that more people are responsible for careless behaviour on our roads simply by virtue of either being elderly or visually impaired.

The vast majority of careless behaviour on our roads is caused by people being careless.

kowloon · 14-07-2019 12:13AM

I wonder how elderly drivers will take to self driving cars. It would be easier for them and safer but they're not big fans of new tech.

OwlsZat · 14-07-2019 12:18AM

One eyed Jack wrote:

Yes, yes you are overstating the issue if your claim is that more people are responsible for careless behaviour on our roads simply by virtue of either being elderly or visually impaired.

It isn't my claim is that some elderly drivers aren't safe. Many have age related issues with sight and reactions. We don't have any statistics or wont ever have because we don't record them. I believe it's a worsening problem. Too many prince Phillips about and we've no system to detect those falling short and make them safer.

One eyed Jack · 14-07-2019 12:59AM

OwlsZat wrote: »

It isn't my claim is that some elderly drivers aren't safe. Many have age related issues with sight and reactions. We don't have any statistics or wont ever have because we don't record them. I believe it's a worsening problem. Too many prince Phillips about and we've no system to detect those falling short and make them safer.

We have plenty of statistics to provide evidence that the majority of accidents on our roads are simply caused by careless drivers, or what are called “distracted” drivers. Insurance companies have plenty of data available to them to make determinations about whether or not to insure individuals who wish to drive on our roads. If it were actually realistic to suggest that the majority of accidents on our roads were caused by elderly or visually impaired drivers, their insurance would cost substantially more than younger drivers who are statistically more likely to be careless drivers.

I don’t know how you can determine it’s a worsening problem when you don’t have any statistics for it, only confirmation bias as far as I can see - you mention three anecdotes about elderly drivers and everyone has their own anecdotes about elderly drivers. I wouldn’t expect any different if you were to mention the number of drivers using their mobile phones as a cause of accidents on our roads - everyone has their own anecdotes about those people too.

To be honest with you, I’m still trying to figure out how the guy directing the driver of the cement truck was knocked down. Surely, one would think, he had to have seen the truck approaching him! He can’t have been doing a very good job of directing a driver if he caused the driver of the truck to reverse into him!

the beer revolu · 14-07-2019 08:50AM

OP, you stated that elderly drivers have more accidents per mile and then went on to say that there are no statistics???
Which is it?

Also, if the car was 100 yards away when cyclist started to cross, how did these two vehicles even meet?

Graces7 · 14-07-2019 09:11AM

kowloon wrote: »

I wonder how elderly drivers will take to self driving cars. It would be easier for them and safer but they're not big fans of new tech.

who says that? I mean not being fans of new tech? we often cannot afford new tech but that is a different thing entirely ... anyways by the time self driving cars come in.. ah but then a new generation of old folk!

Graces7 · 14-07-2019 09:16AM

OwlsZat wrote: »

It isn't my claim is that some elderly drivers aren't safe. Many have age related issues with sight and reactions. We don't have any statistics or wont ever have because we don't record them. I believe it's a worsening problem. Too many prince Phillips about and we've no system to detect those falling short and make them safer.

maybe you forget we have to have medicals annually?

see this article .... https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/medical-tests-for-drivers-over-70-should-be-ended-says-traffic-medicine-expert-37466513.html

Darc19 · 14-07-2019 09:24AM

policarp wrote: »

Usually AFAIK the older driver is a safer driver.
The male under 30 used to be the most accident prone.
We need some statistics.

It's different to what most people think.

An elderly driver would not need to be as safe a driver as a male under 30 because their driving behavior would mean far less risk of a claim

an elderly driver is not driving as much as a male under 30. Is less likely to drive late at night, unlikely to have groups in the car, and because they generally drive slower, other drivers have a better chance of being able to avoid a potential collision as per example in op.

Hence they are less risk rather than "safer"

kowloon · 14-07-2019 09:34AM

Graces7 wrote: »

who says that? I mean not being fans of new tech? we often cannot afford new tech but that is a different thing entirely ... anyways by the time self driving cars come in.. ah but then a new generation of old folk!

Even with things like self service checkouts, older people often don't want to bother with them and would rather queue for a manned register. The same goes for internet banking and smartphones. Early adopters of new tech are almost always younger people. But in the case of self driving cars I think the elderly would benefit most. If the person with the car isn't required to have a licence even more so.

Graces7 · 14-07-2019 09:41AM

kowloon wrote: »

Even with things like self service checkouts, older people often don't want to bother with them and would rather queue for a manned register. The same goes for internet banking and smartphones. Early adopters of new tech are almost always younger people. But in the case of self driving cars I think the elderly would benefit most. If the person with the car isn't required to have a licence even more so.

smartphones cost too much; by the way I am nearly 80!

Oh and phone and internet banking for many years thank you!

Graces7 · 14-07-2019 09:42AM

Darc19 wrote: »

It's different to what most people think.

An elderly driver would not need to be as safe a driver as a male under 30 because their driving behavior would mean far less risk of a claim

an elderly driver is not driving as much as a male under 30. Is less likely to drive late at night, unlikely to have groups in the car, and because they generally drive slower, other drivers have a better chance of being able to avoid a potential collision as per example in op.

Hence they are less risk rather than "safer"

define "safe"; policy and manners and common sense prevail with us.

Thephantomsmask · 14-07-2019 09:57AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To be honest with you, I’m still trying to figure out how the guy directing the driver of the cement truck was knocked down. Surely, one would think, he had to have seen the truck approaching him! He can’t have been doing a very good job of directing a driver if he caused the driver of the truck to reverse into him!

I am guessing that the builder was hit by a motorist while he was standing out on the road to direct the truck, since the OP mentions a statement from the car travelling behind the offending vehicle, not hit by the truck being directed.

kowloon · 14-07-2019 10:04AM

Graces7 wrote: »

smartphones cost too much; by the way I am nearly 80!

Oh and phone and internet banking for many years thank you!

I'm just observing a general trend, it's by no means a rule. I don't have a smartphone either. I'm a complete luddite in that respect.

One eyed Jack · 14-07-2019 10:07AM

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

I am guessing that the builder was hit by a motorist while he was standing out on the road to direct the truck, since the OP mentions a statement from the car travelling behind the offending vehicle, not hit by the truck being directed.

Thank you, genuinely

That had me well confused!

The Tetrarch · 14-07-2019 11:44AM

Those over 40s should have their cars taken from them and all be given bus passes.

bluefinger · 14-07-2019 11:46AM

Woops? Its oops. :-)

corner of hells · 14-07-2019 11:47AM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Those over 40s should have their cars taken from them and all be given bus passes.

I'd gladly give up my car for a travel pass.

Signore Fancy Pants · 14-07-2019 12:11PM

Should mandatory driving tests be introduced every 2 years from age 70 for those who wish to continue to drive? I would be in favour, even if I manage to get to 70. Alternatively, what about a refresher test every 10 years since your initial licence was issued, irrespective of age?

Nobody wants to do (or pay for) driving tests but would either of these initiatives make the roads safer? There should be no fee associated or at least if there is, it should be able to be deducted from your next insurance renewal.

I have been driving since 2000, full licence since 2005 and in that time I'm sure a sh!t load of stuff has been introduced or changed on the driving test. In that time, I have earned 1 penalty point and have had 1 jackass drive into the side of me. If I make it to 70 in 2051...and we still drive cars...I will not have done a civilian driving test in 46 years...I'm not even alive 46 years right now.

Quandary · 14-07-2019 12:17PM

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Should mandatory driving tests be introduced every 2 years from age 70 for those who wish to continue to drive? I would be in favour, even if I manage to get to 70. Alternatively, what about a refresher test every 10 years since your initial licence was issued, irrespective of age?

I would agree this is a prudent course of action, but whichever party presided over the introduction of such measures it would be political suicide.

Thephantomsmask · 14-07-2019 01:06PM

Rather than a driving test, in the traditional sense, maybe something like a driving simulation test could be used in older age groups to test reaction times and spatial awareness. A bit like flight sim tests pilots do to test reaction to unexpected events, a sim could check reaction speed to a child running out on the road or ability to judge speed and distance when merging.

To put a personal spin on that, I am in my thirties and have never driven due to visual problems even though I meet the legal requirements, I am simply too worried that in certain situations I would not be able to see adequately and leave myself vulnerable to an accident. Other people may simply not notice, or not want to admit, that their capabilities are no longer what they were.

Mint Sauce · 14-07-2019 01:21PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To be honest with you, I’m still trying to figure out how the guy directing the driver of the cement truck was knocked down. Surely, one would think, he had to have seen the truck approaching him! He can’t have been doing a very good job of directing a driver if he caused the driver of the truck to reverse into him!

It wasn't the truck driver that hit the guy in the Hi Vis, but a motorist who failed to see the guy in Hi Vis directing the truck.

OwlsZat · 14-07-2019 02:31PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We have plenty of statistics to provide evidence that the majority of accidents on our roads are simply caused by careless drivers, or what are called “distracted” drivers. Insurance companies have plenty of data available to them to make determinations about whether or not to insure individuals who wish to drive on our roads. If it were actually realistic to suggest that the majority of accidents on our roads were caused by elderly or visually impaired drivers, their insurance would cost substantially more than younger drivers who are statistically more likely to be careless drivers.

Please don't conflate what I'm saying with young people causing accidents. Which they do which is why we brought in the mandatory 12 lessons. This is a separate high risk group which needs it's own solution.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

To be honest with you, I’m still trying to figure out how the guy directing the driver of the cement truck was knocked down. Surely, one would think, he had to have seen the truck approaching him! He can’t have been doing a very good job of directing a driver if he caused the driver of the truck to reverse into him!

The builder was out on the main road. Stopping traffic because the cement truck couldn't turn in the house. A separate car didn't see him in the middle of the road and knocked him down at speed.

OwlsZat · 14-07-2019 02:36PM

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Rather than a driving test, in the traditional sense, maybe something like a driving simulation test could be used in older age groups to test reaction times and spatial awareness. A bit like flight sim tests pilots do to test reaction to unexpected events, a sim could check reaction speed to a child running out on the road or ability to judge speed and distance when merging.

To put a personal spin on that, I am in my thirties and have never driven due to visual problems even though I meet the legal requirements, I am simply too worried that in certain situations I would not be able to see adequately and leave myself vulnerable to an accident. Other people may simply not notice, or not want to admit, that their capabilities are no longer what they were.

Thanks for talking sense and also being sensible in your approach to using the road. As we age the time it takes our eye to react to changing light conditions increases massively. Which is why elderly drivers are encouraged not to drive at night. A simulator is exactly what we need. Done ever couple of years at the test centre. Which evaluates your sight, reactions and generally road worthiness. I believe this is what they do already in America. Over here we put to my much weight on driving and independance. My girlfriends granny needed to be put into her car and had two ankles full of fluid as she neared the end. She drove up to the week of her death and put people in danger everytime she did. The elderly are extrememly difficult to talk to when it comes to their personal road safely.

dhaughton99 · 14-07-2019 02:40PM

Once you hit 75, you lose your license and get a free travel pass.

OwlsZat · 14-07-2019 02:43PM

policarp wrote: »

Usually AFAIK the older driver is a safer driver.
The male under 30 used to be the most accident prone.
We need some statistics.

On a per-kilometre basis, seniors are the most collision-prone operators on the road. They are also subject to some of the highest insurance rates, on par with those levied to newly licensed young males.

www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/globe-drive/news/how-old-is-too-old-to-drive/article15584850/

Obviously I'd love the exact statistics. I'd wager older drivers kill more pedestrians than any other group. We'll never know because the RSA doesn't collect the statistics... instead we record the age of the person they hit.

OwlsZat · 14-07-2019 02:49PM

Quandary wrote: »

I would agree this is a prudent course of action, but whichever party presided over the introduction of such measures it would be political suicide.

This is exactly it. Our daft election based politics means drafting progressive legislation is often prevented. The article above explains the issue very well. Seems to be less the aging itself and more the arthritis, diabetes affecting vision and parkinsons etc that the elderly suffer from in turn affecting ones ability to drive. There will be real change after a huge high profile incident. Similar to Prince Phillip's but the victim won't be so lucky.

0lddog · 14-07-2019 03:43PM

OwlsZat wrote: »

On a per-kilometre basis, seniors are the most collision-prone operators on the road. .........

Are you including people on two wheels here ?

Graces7 · 14-07-2019 04:29PM

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/medical-tests-for-drivers-over-70-should-be-ended-says-traffic-medicine-expert-37466513.html

the title of this thread is so ... one day you will understand when you have grown

Woops I didn't see you there

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