Kinahan family member Garda recruits causing issues for The Commissioner

#1 · 14-07-2019 07:21AM #1

First off apologies for the youtube link as the only other news media reporting the story is behind a paywall.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hd6RyR5jV0

What legal implications would this cause for the Gardai, do they have grounds to refuse a recruit based on family connections alone?

I cam understand their concern but any gardai who's investigation involves large crime gangs can be targeted so whats the issue?

To be honest it all seems like a knock off of the film The Departed

banie01 · 14-07-2019 07:28AM

Garda background and security checks are designed to ensure that recruits aren't open to blackmail, extortion or undue influence.
Refusing a candidate based on their known criminal associates is perfectly valid.
Given that the Gardaí are both the body charged with Criminal policing and are the primary state security apparatus, I'm delighted to see the refusal of such candidates as despite the premise of innocence in a criminal matter, they are tainted and vulnerable by thei association.

paw patrol · 14-07-2019 07:40AM

banie01 wrote: »

Garda background and security checks are designed to ensure that recruits aren't open to blackmail, extortion or undue influence.
Refusing a candidate based on their known criminal associates is perfectly valid.
Given that the Gardaí are both the body charged with Criminal policing and are the primary state security apparatus, I'm delighted to see the refusal of such candidates as despite the premise of innocence in a criminal matter, they are tainted and vulnerable by thei association.

Ireland is quite a small country we are quite connected. many gardai have criminal family connection. The only difference here is their family connections are very successful criminals. We've had TDs with wider family connections to gangsters in the past and it was accepted to judge them on the actions of others.

Unless the person themselves is involved then I think it's very unfair.

the fact you are delighted at this persons poor fortune makes me believe you are quite an unpleasant person

Mod
Pls, no insults on this forum

banie01 · 14-07-2019 07:42AM

paw patrol wrote: »

Ireland is quite a small country we are quite connected. many gardai have criminal family connection. The only difference here is their family connections are very successful criminals.

the fact you are delighted at this persons poor fortune makes me believe you are quite an unpleasant person

The fact that my delight at the actual implementation of the vetting process causes you to form an opinion of me, matters not a whit.
It's the legal forum, the question was will this cause an issue for the commissioner.
It won't, because the vetting process is designed for precisely this purpose.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 14-07-2019 07:47AM

I think once the Garda isn't Dublin based then he wouldn't be of any use to the Kinahans. So blackmail shouldn't be an issue if that's the case.

The decision isn't mine to make though.

paw patrol · 14-07-2019 07:48AM

banie01 wrote: »

The fact that my delight at the actual implementation of the vetting process causes you to form an opinion of me, matters not a whit.
It's the legal forum, the question was will this cause an issue for the commissioner.
It won't, because the vetting process is designed for precisely this purpose.

I'm aware it's a legal forum.
You bought feelings into it with your delight .

As I said other gardai aren't blacklisted for family members. this person is being judged on a higher standard. that is unfair . That's the legal piece

banie01 wrote: »

The fact that my delight at the actual implementation of the vetting process causes you to form an opinion of me, matters not a whit.

ok

banie01 · 14-07-2019 07:53AM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think once the Garda isn't Dublin based then he wouldn't be of any use to the Kinahans. So blackmail shouldn't be an issue if that's the case.

The decision isn't mine to make though.

Without going into too much detail but both from professional and personal experience that's wrong.

The usual practice of basing recruits away from their locale, is not at all appropriate where the suspicion of likely taint is apparent.

As another poster has said, Ireland is quite small and as for the impact 1 guard can have take a look at what is currently ongoing in Limerick.
Lots more to come from that yet, and the surprising thing may yet be the source of the payments

Those were Gardaí with no criminal issues.
Posting a Gardaí, anywhere in Ireland is an opportunity to develop intelligence about other serving Gardaí, that could allow their corruption aswell as developing a chain of contacts both criminal and Garda that are very exploitable.

CPTM · 14-07-2019 07:55AM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think once the Garda isn't Dublin based then he wouldn't be of any use to the Kinahans. So blackmail shouldn't be an issue if that's the case.

The decision isn't mine to make though.

Isn't the pulse system nationwide?. He'd still be vulnerable even if he were stationed up in Donegal because he'd have access to information on their intranet.

banie01 · 14-07-2019 07:57AM

paw patrol wrote: »

As I said other gardai aren't blacklisted for family members. this person is being judged on a higher standard. that is unfair . That's the legal piece

All recruits are subject to vetting
That this particular recruits vetting threw up a red flag is a matter for the vetting unit and the supervising officer

That you seem to think it should be ok for those flags to be ignored because other Gardaí with criminal association are allowed.
Well on that case my advice would be to report those Gardaí you have concerns about as an issue may have been missed on their vetting.

listermint · 14-07-2019 08:03AM

CPTM wrote: »

Isn't the pulse system nationwide?. He'd still be vulnerable even if he were stationed up in Donegal because he'd have access to information on their intranet.

Pulse doesn't work the way you think it does. Yes it is nationwide. But it's not just a Google search with abandon

Victor · 14-07-2019 08:14AM

I've not watched the video, so I'm relying on what others have said here.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I think once the Garda isn't Dublin based then he wouldn't be of any use to the Kinahans.

Country gardaí can use Pulse as well.

paw patrol wrote: »

As I said other gardai aren't blacklisted for family members.

Realise there would be a high amount of self-selection.

this person is being judged on a higher standard.

No, it would seem their associates are higher risk. During the troubles, republicans, their family members and even ordinary Sinn Féin members (when Sinn Féin were getting 1-2% in elections) would have been treated similarly.

banie01 · 14-07-2019 08:22AM

Victor wrote: »

.Country gardaí can use Pulse as well.

Realise there would be a high amount of self-selection.

No, it would seem their associates are higher risk. During the troubles, republicans, their family members and even ordinary Sinn Féin members (when Sinn Féin were getting 1-2% in elections) would have been treated similarly.

Country Gardaí can of course use pulse.
The issue is however that use of Pulse is logged against user ID and info viewed.
So, the usual method is to coerce an investigating guard or at least a guard in the same division to view and share.

As for the restriction of Republican sympathizers and SF members and associates.
Very true and a known quantity for any applicants.

paw patrol · 14-07-2019 08:23AM

banie01 wrote: »

All recruits are subject to vetting
That this particular recruits vetting threw up a red flag is a matter for the vetting unit and the supervising officer

The vetting process didn't throw this up , the person voluntarily disclosed it. upfront.

Witcher · 14-07-2019 08:25AM

paw patrol wrote: »

The vetting process didn't throw this up , the person voluntarily disclosed it. upfront.

They disclosed it as part of the vetting process

You have to declare all relatives upto and including first cousins.

And if you're married, your spouse's relatives upto same.

banie01 · 14-07-2019 08:25AM

paw patrol wrote: »

The vetting process didn't throw this up , the person voluntarily disclosed it. upfront.

It is part of the application process, he had to disclose it.
Do you think because he was upfront that security concerns be waived because they want to be a guard and ah shur they told us the truth?

paw patrol · 14-07-2019 08:41AM

banie01 wrote: »

It is part of the application process, he had to disclose it.

no he didn't , he could have said nothing and the vetting process would throw it up (to use your words)

banie01 wrote: »

Do you think because he was upfront that security concerns be waived because they want to be a guard and ah shur they told us the truth?

tbh , you may have a point here...he clearly has no place in the gardai with his upfront honesty.

Mod
Low blow at a profession most of whom work very hard to protect us all. No more of that please

banie01 · 14-07-2019 08:48AM

paw patrol wrote: »

no he didn't , he could have said nothing and the vetting process would throw it up (to use your words)

Lying on the application form is a criminal offence, it's kind of a catch 22 isn't it

.

paw patrol wrote: »

Tbh , you may have a point here...he clearly has no place in the gardai with his upfront honesty.

Again his honesty, was part of the vetting process on a form that lying on has criminal sanction for.

You clearly feel differently, however those feelings aren't really a cause to ignore security concerns are they?

Victor · 14-07-2019 09:40AM

paw patrol wrote: »

he clearly has no place in the gardai with his upfront honesty.

Ouch.

4ensic15 · 14-07-2019 07:45PM

Access to Pulse is one thing which in any case could be monitored. Gardai hear all kinds of gossip and scandal constantly. What if a guard leans that a senior member has a problem such a drink, drugs, gambling extra-marital affair? He lets his criminal cousins know and they get to work on the senior member. Similar gossip gets around about politicians. maybe the politician could be induced to do a favour. Transfer a nosey detective away from a particular area, hold up a legal change etc. It would be virtually impossible to prevent any of this and it would be virtually undetectable.

Yurt2 · 14-07-2019 07:47PM

I take it Commissioner Harris has never seen The Departed (or the Hong Kong original, Infernal Affairs).

Kinahan family member Garda recruits causing issues for The Commissioner

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