Changes in the GAA - super thread

bruschi · 09-07-2019 02:44PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

The structures are the same development structures developed by the DCB. Limerick asked what to do with regards to developing Gaelic games in their county, they implemented the model developed by Dublin by way of train the trainer programmes, thus enabling the club coaches to train the club team mentors whilst also introducing gaelic games to the wider community by way of assisting in developing games development programmes in schools. That is a very high level synopsis of the plan. Remember the monies spent were not as alluded by some ill informed posters towards the senior football team in Dublin.

Ok, so basically, the Dublin model is to increase coaching programs for club mentors who can then teach their own club mentors further. And also developing games development programmes in schools.

So what counties are not doing this or how have other counties failed in doing this?

Also note, I never once mentioned money to the senior team in any post I've put here, if you want to discuss any of the other nonsense with others, feel free to do so.

ArielAtom · 09-07-2019 03:30PM

bruschi wrote: »

Ok, so basically, the Dublin model is to increase coaching programs for club mentors who can then teach their own club mentors further. And also developing games development programmes in schools.

So what counties are not doing this or how have other counties failed in doing this?

Also note, I never once mentioned money to the senior team in any post I've put here, if you want to discuss any of the other nonsense with others, feel free to do so.

The monies issue was not directed at you. Apologies if it came across that way. You asked me what Dublin were doing and I answered you. If you took my post as saying other counties were not doing it, you may have misunderstood me.

bruschi · 09-07-2019 04:03PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

The monies issue was not directed at you. Apologies if it came across that way. You asked me what Dublin were doing and I answered you. If you took my post as saying other counties were not doing it, you may have misunderstood me.

thats fair enough.

Although with regards to the other counties not doing it, I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this bit:

ArielAtom wrote: »

The lack of development in most counties is not due to funding, but inept county boards, look at Limerick, they are the only county to engage with Dublin re the structures they have put in place at underage development, this is not just aimed at playing numbers as some foolishly think, this is aimed at all children to encourage participation. .

Why are Limerick the only one to copy Dublin but "most counties" are inept.

Again, what are other counties doing or not doing that are making them inept in comparison to what Dublin have done.

And what have Limerick done then since to copy Dublins plan?

MayoAreMagic · 09-07-2019 04:19PM

What dublin are doing is simply spending monstrous amounts where others cannot afford to. Look at their younger senior intercounty players at present - dublin have never developed that level of player as regularly in the past. In fact nobody has.
Of course you get the predicable response that in 2017 mayo spent more than dublin, which isnt relative to underage at all. It also ignores the fact that mayo played almost twice as mayo games as dublin that year, without even considering their fixed costs as regards accomodation etc. It was still barely higher than dublins spend...
So as we delve into it, the true picture comes into focus - it's down to mammoth spending. This had been fleshed out numerous times before by various posters and ewan mckenna also. But, when the spending is mentioned again, it will be wheeled out again by the very same guys that have seen it disproven.
With that in mind, why would mckenna not revisit his arguments again and again when that is all the opposition ever do? At least mckenna is telling the truth...

ArielAtom · 09-07-2019 05:24PM

bruschi wrote: »

thats fair enough.

Although with regards to the other counties not doing it, I'm not entirely sure how to interpret this bit:

Why are Limerick the only one to copy Dublin but "most counties" are inept.
I can’t answer that, you’ll need to contact the relevant county boards as to why they are not seeking help. I have been told that certain clubs in Kildare refused a GDO.

Again, what are other counties doing or not doing that are making them inept in comparison to what Dublin have done.
Not putting the relevant structures in place.

And what have Limerick done then since to copy Dublins plan?

Copied or at least studied it and learnt from it.

bruschi · 09-07-2019 05:30PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

Copied or at least studied it and learnt from it.

Wow. innovative stuff there.

And what "most counties" who are "inept", what have they not done then? Or what are other counties doing that they didnt copy Dublin?

ArielAtom · 09-07-2019 05:56PM

bruschi wrote: »

Wow. innovative stuff there.

And what "most counties" who are "inept", what have they not done then? Or what are other counties doing that they didnt copy Dublin?

I suppose you will have to engage with them. I can’t answer for them what they are failing to do. The county (singular) that engaged with Dublin were Limerick.

bruschi · 09-07-2019 05:59PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

I suppose you will have to engage with them. I can’t answer for them what they are failing to do. The county (singular) that engaged with Dublin were Limerick.

but you made the comment

The lack of development in most counties is not due to funding, but inept county boards

On what basis can you make that comment that "most counties" are inept but Limerick arent because they "Copied or at least studied it and learnt from" what Dublin did.

What have Limerick put in place that have set them apart and what exactly did they copy or learn from? And how are most counties inept?

ArielAtom · 09-07-2019 06:04PM

bruschi wrote: »

but you made the comment

On what basis can you make that comment that "most counties" are inept but Limerick arent because they "Copied or at least studied it and learnt from" what Dublin did.

What have Limerick put in place that have set them apart and what exactly did they copy or learn from? And how are most counties inept?

The Dublin development plan.

Fann Linn · 09-07-2019 06:24PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

What dublin are doing is simply spending monstrous amounts where others cannot afford to. Look at their younger senior intercounty players at present - dublin have never developed that level of player as regularly in the past. In fact nobody has.
Of course you get the predicable response that in 2017 mayo spent more than dublin, which isnt relative to underage at all. It also ignores the fact that mayo played almost twice as mayo games as dublin that year, without even considering their fixed costs as regards accomodation etc. It was still barely higher than dublins spend...
So as we delve into it, the true picture comes into focus - it's down to mammoth spending. This had been fleshed out numerous times before by various posters and ewan mckenna also. But, when the spending is mentioned again, it will be wheeled out again by the very same guys that have seen it disproven.
With that in mind, why would mckenna not revisit his arguments again and again when that is all the opposition ever do? At least mckenna is telling the truth...

Speaking relatively, Mayo's had plenty of good young players, AI winners even but the problem is ye won't play them.

Young Hanly and Akram off to the US only last month.

bruschi · 09-07-2019 06:33PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

The Dublin development plan.

So you don't know. That's fine, just say you don't know.

I've only just realised too that it was you who claimed that GPOs are available to every club in Ireland.

There is a lot going on outside of Dublin. And there is a lot not being made available to counties outside Dublin. What Dublin got in terms of the hurling project and the increased coaching and GPO plan were specifically only given to Dublin by the gaa. And again to note, this wasn't because Dublin had some genius plan that no one else had, it was because the gaa decided to plump their money into Dublin. An easy reason to claim they did so is that a rich Dublin makes for a rich gaa.

ArielAtom · 09-07-2019 06:39PM

bruschi wrote: »

So you don't know. That's fine, just say you don't know.

I've only just realised too that it was you who claimed that GPOs are available to every club in Ireland.

There is a lot going on outside of Dublin. And there is a lot not being made available to counties outside Dublin. What Dublin got in terms of the hurling project and the increased coaching and GPO plan were specifically only given to Dublin by the gaa. And again to note, this wasn't because Dublin had some genius plan that no one else had, it was because the gaa decided to plump their money into Dublin. An easy reason to claim they did so is that a rich Dublin makes for a rich gaa.

Plain English and you still don’t get it. I’m not going to re-type the plan for you. I did acknowledge that I was misinformed on the GDO issue. But the fact that two Kildare clubs refused it says a lot. You stick to the funding narrative as is suits you. There is a hell of a lot more wrong than that, and yes I have already agreed that it needs to be discussed. As I’ve said before, opinions are like arseholes. And we all have them.

Beechwoodspark · 09-07-2019 10:12PM

So where do we go from here?

My advice is that the extra funding has to stop ASAP

The other counties have to be brought level to Dublin so for a good number of years Dublin will have to be given much LESS funding and all other counties given much MORE

Trial 2 or 4 split of Dublin. This has to be done to address the inherent and ludicrous population advantage Dublin has.

Then maybe we will get at least some semblance of fairness in the GAA.

Fann Linn · 09-07-2019 10:26PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So where do we go from here?

My advice is that the extra funding has to stop ASAP

The other counties have to be brought level to Dublin so for a good number of years Dublin will have to be given much LESS funding and all other counties given much MORE

Trial 2 or 4 split of Dublin. This has to be done to address the inherent and ludicrous population advantage Dublin has.

Then maybe we will get at least some semblance of fairness in the GAA.

Or merge Carlow and Wicklow for example.

bruschi · 09-07-2019 11:31PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So where do we go from here?

My advice is that the extra funding has to stop ASAP

The other counties have to be brought level to Dublin so for a good number of years Dublin will have to be given much LESS funding and all other counties given much MORE

Trial 2 or 4 split of Dublin. This has to be done to address the inherent and ludicrous population advantage Dublin has.

Then maybe we will get at least some semblance of fairness in the GAA.

You can't do either option there. As much as Dublin have received a massive jump in funding, not only directly through the gaa as a recognised province of their own but also through the very aptly named Dublin coaching project from leinster, which is actually more than any other county gets, the funding as it is set up cannot just cease. The majority of this spend is on wages of full time coaches. You can't sack a load of people just because they've made an uneven county set up. Likewise, you can't punish clubs and players with taking out their coach.

The splitting of Dublin won't ever happen. The whole set up of the team formation in the championship is all sorts of wrong. 32 counties all of different size, population and history. It is already an uneven set up. The closest model would be the likes of Australia with the AFL. A country 5 times the population of Ireland with nearly half the amount of teams. You could split Dublin, but if you do, you need to factor in amalgamations and completely realign the whole set up.

The investment badly needs to be replicated in other provinces. The east leinster project is addressing it slowly in less than half the counties but is 15 years behind the initial investments in Dublin. That's how far behind other counties now are. And some are worse.

MayoAreMagic · 09-07-2019 11:39PM

bruschi wrote: »

The splitting of Dublin won't ever happen. The whole set up of the team formation in the championship is all sorts of wrong. 32 counties all of different size, population and history. It is already an uneven set up. The closest model would be the likes of Australia with the AFL. A country 5 times the population of Ireland with nearly half the amount of teams. You could split Dublin, but if you do, you need to factor in amalgamations and completely realign the whole set up.

The investment badly needs to be replicated in other provinces. The east leinster project is addressing it slowly in less than half the counties but is 15 years behind the initial investments in Dublin. That's how far behind other counties now are. And some are worse.

Other counties could be given the oprion of amalgamating. I dont see that as a big issue. The reality is they arent playing a meaningful part in football today anyway so why would they be so against that opportunity?
If the money doesnt stop then dublin will be split, it is only a matter of time.

As regards replication in other counties, it isnt possible. The gaa cant afford to give say leitrim 10 times the funds of the next lowest county, which would be 170 million. Remember if you want to replicate the job done in dublin, this has to take place also.

Beechwoodspark · 10-07-2019 08:39AM

bruschi wrote: »

You can't do either option there. As much as Dublin have received a massive jump in funding, not only directly through the gaa as a recognised province of their own but also through the very aptly named Dublin coaching project from leinster, which is actually more than any other county gets, the funding as it is set up cannot just cease. The majority of this spend is on wages of full time coaches. You can't sack a load of people just because they've made an uneven county set up. Likewise, you can't punish clubs and players with taking out their coach.

The splitting of Dublin won't ever happen. The whole set up of the team formation in the championship is all sorts of wrong. 32 counties all of different size, population and history. It is already an uneven set up. The closest model would be the likes of Australia with the AFL. A country 5 times the population of Ireland with nearly half the amount of teams. You could split Dublin, but if you do, you need to factor in amalgamations and completely realign the whole set up.

The investment badly needs to be replicated in other provinces. The east leinster project is addressing it slowly in less than half the counties but is 15 years behind the initial investments in Dublin. That's how far behind other counties now are. And some are worse.

If congress decide, it can certainly be done

As for the coaches Dublin have at moment-

I would suggest once the funding tap turns off for Dublin that Dublin either self fund it themselves or else these ppl should do what the vast majority of persons involved in the gaa in Ireland do...

...give their time and effort in a voluntary capacity.

The main thing I cannot stress enough is cut off the financial doping that Dublin has been revelling in and increase the funds for all the other counties that have been discarded in this mad experiment.

bruschi · 10-07-2019 08:46AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If congress decide, it can certainly be done

As for the coaches Dublin have at moment-

I would suggest once the funding tap turns off for Dublin that Dublin either self fund it themselves or else these ppl should do what the vast majority of persons involved in the gaa in Ireland do...

...give their time and effort in a voluntary capacity.

The main thing I cannot stress enough is cut off the financial doping that Dublin has been revelling in and increase the funds for all the other counties that have been discarded in this mad experiment.

you have no idea of the workings of a GDA or GPO if you think they should give it as a voluntary contribution. And it also shows that you dont know how much voluntary work goes side by side with having a GPO, which many clubs in Dublin have and have many volunteers much like the rest of the country.

Clubs funding it themselves would only work in the absolute superclubs in Dublin. I would imagine that the clubs paying for half the costs of the GPO are not flush with cash but realise the importance of keeping it going.

I'm all for increasing the funding to other counties, but at the same time, there needs to be a bit of realism taken into account here. Blankly stating cut off Dublins funding isnt as simple in practice.

Beechwoodspark · 10-07-2019 08:47AM

And just to make the point on the inevitable split that is coming sooner or later unless things change re the financial doping.

If it was a split of say 4 teams.

That would be roughly 250-300 k population each

STILL bohemoths relatively speaking in terms of Irish county population

That’s how mad this whole thing is!

salmocab · 10-07-2019 08:58AM

There won’t be a split in Dublin, it just won’t be happening. People declaring it as inevitable are just projecting their hopes.

Dots1982 · 10-07-2019 09:14AM

The reason Dublin are now dominant is better organization (all counties are better organized since 1990 but Dublin has the most to gain from better organization) and a population boom since 1990. They’ve added far more people to the county population since 1990 than the entire present populations of Kildare and Meath.

The funding was about monitising the huge numbers of youth in Dublin areas by turning their parents into cash registers via their children’s membership fees. That’s what the funding was all about. Sure a nursery membership in a Dublin club alone is about €85. Big Dublin clubs have 400 nursery members.

That’s what the investment in GPOs/GDOs is all about. The return from the GAA investing in Dublin was absolutely lucrative. It probably has a small effect on the Dublin senior team’s performance but it wouldn’t be a big factor.

It’s not a sexy reason but the main cause of Dublin’s dominance is population.

bruschi · 10-07-2019 09:17AM

salmocab wrote: »

There won’t be a split in Dublin, it just won’t be happening. People declaring it as inevitable are just projecting their hopes.

exactly. It is completely unfeasible and if it were to happen, there would need to be a massive overhaul of the entire competition, in both football and hurling. Considering how hard it is to make slight changes in competitions or games, something of this nature will never go through.

Thats not to say it shouldnt happen, but that boat sailed years and years ago. Dublin is far too big to only have one team, but it is what it is. Some counties are too small to be on their own. Realistically, the country is only really big enough for about 12 top class teams in either code and if you go down that route, then you go down the professional route. The entire fabric of the GAA would change if Dublin is split.

salmocab · 10-07-2019 09:39AM

bruschi wrote: »

exactly. It is completely unfeasible and if it were to happen, there would need to be a massive overhaul of the entire competition, in both football and hurling. Considering how hard it is to make slight changes in competitions or games, something of this nature will never go through.

Thats not to say it shouldnt happen, but that boat sailed years and years ago. Dublin is far too big to only have one team, but it is what it is. Some counties are too small to be on their own. Realistically, the country is only really big enough for about 12 top class teams in either code and if you go down that route, then you go down the professional route. The entire fabric of the GAA would change if Dublin is split.

If you were designing a competition now it’s certainly not the way it would be done.

doc_17 · 10-07-2019 09:44AM

Money is the cause of Dublin’s success. They had the huge population advantage in the 90s and noughties too. Oh, and they also hard working volunteers as well. Maybe those volunteers were useless though?

Before anyone looks about amalgamating other counties, Dublin should be split. Just to say I’m not advocating Dublin be split, but it’s fairer than amalgamating other counties.

It’s cheaper for a Dub to stand and watch a match in Croke Park this weekend than it is for any other home team in the Super 8 this weekend. This whole thing is an ongoing disgrace.

ToBeFrank123 · 10-07-2019 09:46AM

Fann Linn wrote: »

Or merge Carlow and Wicklow for example.

Merging them without increasing the number of GDOs for both counties would do absolutely nothing for either county or long term competitiveness. You'd also need to put a GDO into most of the bigger clubs in both counties as happens in Dublin.

Dots1982 · 10-07-2019 09:51AM

The idea that population isn’t the main route of their success when they have at least 6 times the population of almost all their rivals is a strange thing.

If you showed anyone outside Ireland with an idea about sport the GAA’s competition model they’d immediately just say Dublin will dominate if you follow that model

As for the “Dublin almost had the population advantage” argument.

1- they’ve never had it to the current extent
2- they had and that’s why they’re far more successful that any other county bar Kerry up to 1990.

ToBeFrank123 · 10-07-2019 09:54AM

salmocab wrote: »

There won’t be a split in Dublin, it just won’t be happening. People declaring it as inevitable are just projecting their hopes.

I wouldn't be advocating a split except as a very last resort when all other efforts at creating balance have been exhausted.

Would you be ok with redistributing GDOs and games funding for example?

And don't give us some nonsense about other counties copying the Dublin model. There isn't enough money in the GAA to do this. The GAA decided to pool much of their money in Dublin games development and this is where the real imbalance has been created.

They've created a PSG of Gaelic Football with their ineptitude and bias towards Dublin.

The GAA usually have one job above all others - don't ruin your marquee sports competitions, Sam Maguire and Liam McCarthy. Unfortunately they've made a good start on ruining Sam Maguire and killed off the Leinster Championship.

Great for Dublin fans. Disastrous for the future health of the sport though. Not that most Dublin fans give a damn!

ToBeFrank123 · 10-07-2019 09:57AM

Dots1982 wrote: »

The idea that population isn’t the main route of their success when they have at least 6 times the population of almost all their rivals is a strange thing.

If you showed anyone outside Ireland with an idea about sport the GAA’s competition model they’d immediately just say Dublin will dominate if you follow that model

As for the “Dublin almost had the population advantage” argument.

1- they’ve never had it to the current extent
2- they had and that’s why they’re far more successful that any other county bar Kerry up to 1990.

So they don't need all that extra funding and GDOs so. Its population that is winning them AIs. Time to redistribute funds and GDOs to weaker counties that really need them. Dublin already have a natural advantage with their huge population, they don't need any extra help.

salmocab · 10-07-2019 10:03AM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I wouldn't be advocating a split except as a very last resort when all other efforts at creating balance have been exhausted.

Would you be ok with redistributing GDOs and games funding for example?

And don't give us some nonsense about other counties copying the Dublin model. There isn't enough money in the GAA to do this. The GAA decided to pool much of their money in Dublin games development and this is where the real imbalance has been created.

They've created a PSG of Gaelic Football with their ineptitude and bias towards Dublin.

The GAA usually have one job above all others - don't ruin your marquee sports competitions, Sam Maguire and Liam McCarthy. Unfortunately they've made a good start on ruining Sam Maguire and killed off the Leinster Championship.

Great for Dublin fans. Disastrous for the future health of the sport though. Not that most Dublin fans give a damn!

Well thanks for your warning about nonsense that really moves the debate along. I’ve said at least twice here that I favor having the money go where it does the best work. Where that is I don’t know.

Dots1982 · 10-07-2019 10:05AM

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

So they don't need all that extra funding and GDOs so. Its population that is winning them AIs. Time to redistribute funds and GDOs to weaker counties that really need them. Dublin already have a natural advantage with their huge population, they don't need any extra help.

They are now having the GDOs in Kildare, Meath, Louth and Wicklow. It’s called the North Leinster project.

They will work in the commuter belts where there’s loads of kids and loads of parents with wallets.

They won’t be moving GDOs to the likes of Roscommon etc because there’s no “bang for the buck” in largely rural counties.

Changes in the GAA - super thread

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