Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

iamwhoiam · 09-07-2019 07:43AM

Omackeral wrote: »

''Instead of''. Why not ''as well as''?.

Zappone is the type of person people talk about when they refer to liberals or the left in a mocking manner. She's far too soft. I'm not an advocate for death sentences by any means but at the same time punishment must be served.

It also would be a huge insult to Ana and her family and to other victims if the criminals were offered counselling with no punishment as such .
As you say by all means counselling while detained . Although I think some of them are way beyond counselling being of any benefit

Emme · 09-07-2019 07:48AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It also would be a huge insult to Ana and her family and to other victims if the criminals were offered counselling with no punishment as such .
As you say by all means counselling while detained . Although I think some of them are way beyond counselling being of any benefit

People who work, are productive and contribute to the system have to pay for counselling and many who need it forego it because of the cost.

Anyone who committed, aided and abetted a murder like Ana's is beyond redemption. They should not get counselling. Save counselling for those who need it, such as children who are being bullied at school.

iamwhoiam · 09-07-2019 08:02AM

Emme wrote: »

People who work, are productive and contribute to the system have to pay for counselling and many who need it forego it because of the cost.

Anyone who committed, aided and abetted a murder like Ana's is beyond redemption. They should not get counselling. Save counselling for those who need it, such as children who are being bullied at school.

I an ideal world we would all be entitled to access counselling and seek help . Unfortunately Ireland is far from ideal and the balance tips in favour of the perpetrators

Vicarious Function · 09-07-2019 09:34AM

I don't think either of these two boys would benefit much from counselling. They would consider themselves far too smart to be influenced by any Counsellor. They are expert manipulators and many Counsellers allow themselves to be manipulated by their clients - from what we see in many Court cases.

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2019 09:38AM

Emme wrote: »

Katherine Zappone's has suggested that children who commit serious crimes should receive counselling instead of being detained. I don't think it is appropriate in all cases. Some criminals should not be allowed in society no matter how young.

Its the wishy washy ‘everyones good’ attitude of people like zappone that has young criminals unafraid of the legal system. If we stopped people luke this participating in the conversation and actually took a hard line on crime we might save a few lives

gozunda · 09-07-2019 09:52AM

Emme wrote: »

Katherine Zappone's has suggested that children who commit serious crimes should receive counselling instead of being detained. I don't think it is appropriate in all cases. Some criminals should not be allowed in society no matter how young.

She has to be joking. Her snugly wugly idea of young violent criminals is a help to no one. Neither their victims, society or indeed themselves imo.

corpusvile · 09-07-2019 09:56AM

I lived in a rather crappy area for several years before moving & during this time, any teen I ever seen interacting with the Gardaí had this "hit me I dare ya" attitude with them and seemed completely unintimidated by them. My partner who isn't Irish told me in no uncertain terms how the police over her way would handle things & thinks our cops are far too soft. People like Zapone live in ivory towers imho & seem to view things in abstract terms. They seem to think everything will be solved by some touchy-feely talk about your feelings rubbish & also seem to make no distinctions between certain offenders crimes, thinking a one size fits all solution will work. Boys A & B would play such types like a fiddle, I reckon.

I agree a harder line needs to be taken on crime in general but especially on crimes of this nature. I don't think offenders like Boy A & B can benefit from any form of counselling or therapy, personally.

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2019 10:01AM

corpusvile wrote: »

I lived in a rather crappy area for several years before moving & during this time, any teen I ever seen interacting with the Gardaí had this "hit me I dare ya" attitude with them and seemed completely unintimidated by them. My partner who isn't Irish told me in no uncertain terms how the police over her way would handle things & thinks our cops are far too soft. People like Zapone live in ivory towers imho & seem to view things in abstract terms. They seem to think everything will be solved by some touchy-feely talk about your feelings rubbish & also seem to make no distinctions between certain offenders crimes, thinking a one size fits all solution will work. Boys A & B would play such types like a fiddle, I reckon.

I agree a harder line needs to be taken on crime in general but especially on crimes of this nature. I don't think offenders like Boy A & B can benefit from any form of counselling or therapy, personally.

+1. If gardai were known for ripping 14 year old kids off scramblers and goving them a good ‘physical warning’ you’d see a lot less of them chancing their arm.

I do not believe for one second that it is ever possible to reform boy A. Should never see the light of day ever again but this isnt something our legal sustem seems capable of providing.

MadYaker · 09-07-2019 10:28AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1. If gardai were known for ripping 14 year old kids off scramblers and goving them a good ‘physical warning’ you’d see a lot less of them chancing their arm.

I do not believe for one second that it is ever possible to reform boy A. Should never see the light of day ever again but this isnt something our legal sustem seems capable of providing.

Yeah let’s have the gardai beat up kids for riding scooters, that’s almost as ridiculous a suggestion as zapones conselling nonsense.

I think once the sentences are handed down if boy b gets a long custodial sentence he’ll appeal it and will probably be successful. Boy A needs to remain in some sort of prison for the rest of his life imo. Can the judge impose such a sentence? Does anyone actually know what the judges options are in regard to sentencing in this case?

splinter65 · 09-07-2019 10:45AM

MadYaker wrote: »

Yeah let’s have the gardai beat up kids for riding scooters, that’s almost as ridiculous a suggestion as zapones conselling nonsense.

I think once the sentences are handed down if boy b gets a long custodial sentence he’ll appeal it and will probably be successful. Boy A needs to remain in some sort of prison for the rest of his life imo. Can the judge impose such a sentence? Does anyone actually know what the judges options are in regard to sentencing in this case?

Riding scrambler bikes and quads on the public roads is just as illegal as drunk driving or driving with no insurance.
Nobody is advocating beating children up.
But everyone including children needs to be conscious that law breaking may have negative consequences for them.
It is a valid argument to make that boy a and boy b had formed the the opinion that there would be no consequences of any kind for them because the law apparently doesn’t apply to teenagers, and people like you really don’t want them to be punished or reprimanded in anyway, irregardless of what damage they do.

Flippyfloppy · 09-07-2019 10:50AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1. If gardai were known for ripping 14 year old kids off scramblers and goving them a good ‘physical warning’ you’d see a lot less of them chancing their arm.

I do not believe for one second that it is ever possible to reform boy A. Should never see the light of day ever again but this isnt something our legal sustem seems capable of providing.

Should adults get ripped out of their cars too for ‘physical warnings?’

ohnonotgmail · 09-07-2019 10:50AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Riding scrambler bikes and quads on the public roads is just as illegal as drunk driving or driving with no insurance.
Nobody is advocating beating children up.
But everyone including children needs to be conscious that law breaking may have negative consequences for them.

Ahem

If gardai were known for ripping 14 year old kids off scramblers and goving them a good ‘physical warning’ you’d see a lot less of them chancing their arm.

what do think compromises a 'physical warning'?

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2019 10:54AM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Should adults get ripped out of their cars too for ‘physical warnings?’

If theyre driving around dangerously uninsured yes

corpusvile · 09-07-2019 10:56AM

I'm no legal expert at all but I'm not so sure if any appeal by boy b will be successful, actually. To their credit the Gardaí investigation was an almost textbook example of how to to it right. Their trial was fair & they were allowed to sit with their parents during proceedings & not in a dock or anything. The judge seemed quite fair when ruling on what evidence was admissible/not & afaik over here appeals can only be based on legal or procedural errors during trial, not on the merits of the case or evidence.

So it wouldn't surprise me if any appeal from boy b is rejected.

I think minors can be sentenced to life in Ireland but realistically I don't think that'll amount to much sentence wise, but at least they'll be on parole for natural life, which can be rescinded, assuming they get such a sentence.

Flippyfloppy · 09-07-2019 10:58AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If theyre driving around dangerously uninsured yes

So don’t impound vehicles anymore, just beat people up.

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2019 11:01AM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

So don’t impound vehicles anymore, just beat people up.

Do both.

Why drag this thread completely off topic. Im saying that if the gardai were more heavy handed and dished out meaningful justice to young offenders that made them behave that perhaps they wouldnt see the gardai as a soft touch and it would save lives

Flippyfloppy · 09-07-2019 11:10AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do both.

Why drag this thread completely off topic. Im saying that if the gardai were more heavy handed and dished out meaningful justice to young offenders that made them behave that perhaps they wouldnt see the gardai as a soft touch and it would save lives

Yes I agree with them dishing out meaningful justice. And proper parenting at home too.

I am old enough to remember the end of Gardaí being heavy handed with teens out drinking etc. The backlash from parents was dire.

In this particular case it wouldn’t have helped, as the two boys don’t seem to have been on Gardaí radar, just the schools radar for bullying.

splinter65 · 09-07-2019 11:11AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Ahem

what do think compromises a 'physical warning'?

First of all police in Britain have demonstrated how it is actually possible to chase teenage scooter/quad bike/scrambler thieves in police cars and force them off the road with just a few scratches and bruises.
https://youtu.be/Iw0MFxk6To4
Im fully onboard with this. Are you not?

ohnonotgmail · 09-07-2019 11:12AM

splinter65 wrote: »

First of all police in Britain have demonstrated how it is actually possible to chase teenage scooter/quad bike/scrambler thieves in police cars and force them off the road with just a few scratches and bruises.
https://youtu.be/Iw0MFxk6To4
Im fully onboard with this. Are you not?

what exactly is a "physical warning"? its a pretty straightforward question.

splinter65 · 09-07-2019 11:17AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what exactly is a "physical warning"? its a pretty straightforward question.

A physical warning is safely knocking a law breaker of his mode of transport when he has refused the opportunity to stop otherwise (as demonstrated in the YouTube clip I posted) when asked by the police.
Would you prefer that he or an innocent passer by be more seriously injured or killed ?

Stop moaning ffs · 09-07-2019 11:21AM

To be fair to Gardai, we live in a country where smacking your own child even a tap on the bum, is a prosecutable offence.

Address that and fix that. Parents can’t even discipline their own kids and only have grounding them or taking the playstation off them as recourse. No wonder kids are gone feral.

My ma and da would just have to give me a look and I’d stop carrying on.
I’m sure many here have the same experience and upbringing.

These days though parents hands are tied. So gardai and respect for them is totally a lost concept.

Eric Cartman · 09-07-2019 11:25AM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes I agree with them dishing out meaningful justice. And proper parenting at home too.

I am old enough to remember the end of Gardaí being heavy handed with teens out drinking etc. The backlash from parents was dire.

In this particular case it wouldn’t have helped, as the two boys don’t seem to have been on Gardaí radar, just the schools radar for bullying.

I think they would have had some reconsideration if the gardai were heavy handed and the justice system was effective.

I have no doubt in my mind that boy A went into it with a 'dont talk to the gardai, give them nothing and even if they get you you'll be out in 5' attitude.

ohnonotgmail · 09-07-2019 11:25AM

splinter65 wrote: »

A physical warning is safely knocking a law breaker of his mode of transport when he has refused the opportunity to stop otherwise (as demonstrated in the YouTube clip I posted) when asked by the police.
Would you prefer that he or an innocent passer by be more seriously injured or killed ?

you really think that is what they meant?

Suckit · 09-07-2019 12:19PM

I'm not sure if an appeal would be succesful for Boy B, unless he can make a full accountable and acceptable statement of everything that happened that day. I honestly believe the only way he can do that is by incriminating himself more.
Boy A's silence with Boy B's lies means that nobody may ever know what exactly happened that day, unless they tell somebody in Oberstown or one of the parents.

If Boy B did appeal and somehow managed to get out early, I wonder would that make Boy A speak up about the events that happened that day. If it did, would it make any difference without any evidence.

tuxy · 09-07-2019 12:29PM

Suckit wrote: »

If Boy B did appeal and somehow managed to get out early, I wonder would that make Boy A speak up about the events that happened that day. If it did, would it make any difference without any evidence.

He still would have nothing to gain by speaking out. Just doing what your told and not being any hassle to staff is how most offenders get out as early as possible. Dragging up what horrible, disgusting acts he did in the past probably wouldn't help.

Suckit · 09-07-2019 12:32PM

tuxy wrote: »

He still would have nothing to gain by speaking out. Just doing what your told and not being any hassle to staff is how most offenders get out as early as possible. Dragging up what horrible, disgusting acts he did in the past probably wouldn't help.

I meant the other way, as in would it have any effect on B having been released early.

Hypothetical anyway, but hadn't thought of it that way when I was saying it.

Sardonicat · 09-07-2019 12:36PM

Grounds for an appeal would have to be established in court before any appeal can go ahead. At this stage sentencing hasn't even happened yet, nevermind looking for grounds for appeal.

pablo128 · 09-07-2019 12:53PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Do both.

Why drag this thread completely off topic. Im saying that if the gardai were more heavy handed and dished out meaningful justice to young offenders that made them behave that perhaps they wouldnt see the gardai as a soft touch and it would save lives

It doesn't work. They used to do that to us in Clondalkin.

And wondered why they got a brick through the window when they were chasing a stolen car.

splinter65 · 09-07-2019 01:24PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you really think that is what they meant?

If a Garda can actually manage to physically catch a child riding a propelled vehicle illegally, and “rip” him off the bike then yes , of course I’d approve. Would you not approve also and if not why not?

Stop moaning ffs · 09-07-2019 01:26PM

splinter65 wrote: »

If a Garda can actually manage to physically catch a child riding a propelled vehicle illegally, yes can him and “rip” him off the bike then yes , of course I’d approve. Would you not approve also and if not why not?

If you’re the type of person that buys a child such a vehicle I’m pretty sure you’re going to take serious exception to a Garda physically taking your child off the bike. I’m not even sorry to say it’s a very specific type in our society that do buy their kids these scramblers. We all know this though.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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