Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

splinter65 · 07-07-2019 11:11AM

gozunda wrote: »

The only aspect of this horrific crime imo which could have possibly prevented these two psychotic scotes from doing what they did - would have been a proactive control of the aparent aggressive bullying and ostracization which Ana was subject to. In this the school are at least partially culpable imo. Despite meeting with her parents and being advised of their daughters difficulties regarding abuse being adopted etc - it would appear from the media reports at least they did little or nothing. The fact that the ongoing bullying by her peers was well known is in itself abhorrent and inexcusable. Hopefully this may be a wakeup for other schools.

When you see boy bs father reaction to the jury’s verdict in court in front of the press and the judiciary and AGS then you can imagine how he would have behaved in the school principals office if called in there regarding bullying.
Teachers are threatened and tyres are slashed and a teacher I know had paint thrown at her front door after confronting the parent of a bully.
Teachers don’t get paid enough for the abuse they take.
IMO if a school is notified of a case of bullying it should be handed over to AGS immediately and the alleged bully suspended until an investigation has completed.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 11:23AM

Goes back to my idea we create Anas law. Where zero tolerance on bullying in any form across the entire education system and that’ll soften the cough of the little bastard kids that do it and also the sh!thead parents you describe in your post will learn quickly not to act the bollox like that.

Eradicate it at school level and it would soon stop happening thereafter in work and elsewhere

Suckit · 07-07-2019 11:27AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

That sounds like they all have to attend classes. Good. Not every kid on there is a write off to society. We have to remember that. It sounds cushy number in a way but if it was a harsh environment where they had manual labour or whatever they all wouldn’t come out reformed exactly would they.

It also sounds like a more structured safe and healthy environment than probably a lot of the kids in there are from in their families and home lives. That would make you wonder too

You could be right but I guess it also depends on where they go after they are 18 too. Either way, I'm sure we will hear of at least one of them again.
Darren Goodwin went to prison until he was 28, Oberstown didn't exist then, but not sure if he served any of his time served elsewhere.

When he got out, a prison source said:

“Goodwin is one of the most disturbed individuals that I have ever met. “You can do prison the hard way or the easy way and he always chose the hard way. He refused to engage in any rehabilitation services until just this year.
“He still has the mind of the child that he was when he was sent to prison. He has no personal skills and will really struggle to cope in the real world.
“He’d be the type of fella that I’d expect to see behind bars again sooner rather than later.”

Vicarious Function · 07-07-2019 11:29AM

splinter65 wrote: »

When you see boy bs father reaction to the jury’s verdict in court in front of the press and the judiciary and AGS then you can imagine how he would have behaved in the school principals office if called in there regarding bullying.
Teachers are threatened and tyres are slashed and a teacher I know had paint thrown at her front door after confronting the parent of a bully.
Teachers don’t get paid enough for the abuse they take.
IMO if a school is notified of a case of bullying it should be handed over to AGS immediately and the alleged bully suspended until an investigation has completed.

If AGS is involved, who knows what the reprisals for the Teacher/Principal woud be. Probably more than a can of paint on their door.

Sorry, IMO - your suggestion is not a workable solution.

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 11:33AM

Dead right Splinter.

Teachers should be free to teach classes. Long thought parents should have to pass some basic competency tests to qualified for raising children. Would save society picking up the pieces time after time. Worse they ruin the childhood of many with decent parents.

Oh but this is the teachers problem. Irony being the bullies parents are often the bullies of the previous generation. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, all trees shouldn't necessarily bear fruit.

Obviously this doesn't apply to all fail children but if you could prevent unqualified parents having children the ones that do fail, intervention though the parents becomes possible again.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 11:33AM

Suckit wrote: »

You could be right but I guess it also depends on where they go after they are 18 too. Either way, I'm sure we will hear of at least one of them again.
Darren Goodwin went to prison until he was 28, Oberstown didn't exist then, but not sure if he served any of his time served elsewhere.

When he got out, a prison source said:

I wasn’t referring to the two little scum that did this. I meant all the kids in there.
I’d say these two are beyond help in any real sense especially now. Even if you could rehabilitate them completely, they won’t be accepted back into society when they do emerge.

Would you hire eother of them?

strandroad · 07-07-2019 11:34AM

Do you not think that bullying is a separate (obviously very serious) issue here and not necessarily a direct cause of Ana's death or the killers' plans?

I mean, even a "popular" (I hate this phrase!) 14 year old girl would still skip happily to meet a boy she had a crush on. Do you think that they picked Ana for her vulnerability, or rather because she was developed, pretty and met the stereotype of "Russian Anastasia" they saw on porn sites?

Eric Cartman · 07-07-2019 11:37AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Goes back to my idea we create Anas law. Where zero tolerance on bullying in any form across the entire education system and that’ll soften the cough of the little bastard kids that do it and also the sh!thead parents you describe in your post will learn quickly not to act the bollox like that.

Eradicate it at school level and it would soon stop happening thereafter in work and elsewhere

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

iamwhoiam · 07-07-2019 11:39AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

You just plucked that out of thin air with no basis to it

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 11:41AM

strandroad wrote: »

Do you not think that bullying is a separate (obviously very serious) issue here and not necessarily a direct cause of Ana's death or the killers' plans?

I mean, even a "popular" (I hate this phrase!) 14 year old girl would still skip happily to meet a boy she had a crush on. Do you think that they picked Ana for her vulnerability, or rather because she was developed, pretty and met the stereotype of "Russian Anastasia" they saw on porn sites?

I think the bullying was so longterm the idea of doing bad things to her was normalised. The irony of Boy A bullying her for years about being an outcast then trying to rape her will no doubt be lost on him. I bet all 13 year olds have seen porn in some form such is the spread of internet connectivity. However, deciding to murder someone having seen nudidity at length doesn't really add up for me.

Boy A just seems like a nut job. More like Venables in the Bulger case. I'd rate his chances of reform as low at best.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 11:41AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

It would work. Young girls don’t get a pass cos they’re girls. I know young girls in particular can be vicious. Words but more than digs and hurt forever.

Make it zero tolerance child reported doing it Is expelled good luck finding s new school.

Youd see real change.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 11:44AM

Just to remind the last few posters Ana was bullied horribly by a lot of her classmates. We don’t know these two bullied her at all.
They probably saw it happen and that was into them seeing her as a target. Let’s pretend be friends with her etc.

The bullying she endured was by many according to court reports and her families and teachers testimony. I believe them.

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 11:44AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Sadly wouldnt work, an awful lot of bullying in school is done by girls or orchestrated by girls and its unlikely the dept of education would ever want to get involved in a policy that ‘negitively impacts’ young women

That's a really relevant point considering both purputrators were Male. Go on the wind up in some other thread.

Eric Cartman · 07-07-2019 11:46AM

iamwhoiam wrote: »

You just plucked that out of thin air with no basis to it

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 11:46AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It would work. Young girls don’t get a pass cos they’re girls. I know young girls in particular can be vicious. Words but more than digs and hurt forever.

Make it zero tolerance child reported doing it Is expelled good luck finding s new school.

Youd see real change.

That's a great solution until you get to a place where there is only one school.

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 11:50AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

Got any links for that? Children bully other children for being different. Most often the children of inept parents. They feel by making others appear worse they will fit in better. Ana was Russian, adopted, hard of hearing, poor at learning and had poor vision. Fair to say there was plenty to go off. She needed other children to stick up for her and face off against those bullying her amongst other things.

Eric Cartman · 07-07-2019 11:55AM

OwlsZat wrote: »

Got any links for that? Children bully other children for being different. Most often is the children of terrible parents. They feel by making others appear worse they will fit in better. Ana was Russian, adopted, hard of hearing, poor at learning and had poor vision. Fair to say there was plenty to go off. She needed other children to stick up for her and face off against those bullying her amongst other things.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/13/girls-more-likely-to-be-bullied-than-boys-english-schools-survey-finds

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil8OG636LjAhXfVxUIHT23BeAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-health-puberty-bullying%2Fearly-puberty-in-girls-tied-to-bullying-in-school-idUSKCN1II2NI&psig=AOvVaw2FXdAmsRS_Gfllknx6HQzc&ust=1562586767164285

iamwhoiam · 07-07-2019 11:57AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

I meant your opinion of what the Department would do

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 12:01PM

OwlsZat wrote: »

That's a great solution until you get to a place where there is only one school.

Come again?
Why would there only be one school?
Sorry if I’m misreading your reply

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 07-07-2019 12:03PM

Vicarious Function wrote: »

If AGS is involved, who knows what the reprisals for the Teacher/Principal woud be. Probably more than a can of paint on their door.

Sorry, IMO - your suggestion is not a workable solution.

Bullies are cowards. A teacher is an easy target, AGS is not. It should go to the Gardai and a proper investigation should take place. Teachers should not bear the responsibility of fixing a broken family and their thug children.

Bullies should be expelled (depending on the seriousness of the case), end of.

rodge123 · 07-07-2019 12:11PM

I think one posters suggestion of getting AGS involved in a great idea.
Allocate an extra few million to them to setup a nationwide team that will deal with it directly.
Anything reported to school is passsd onto this team who will deal with.
I reckon the majority of kids will stop the bullying fairly fast and not repeat it after been interviewed by a guard.
Maybe a system of three strikes and you get something on your record with guards.

That’s a very simplistic version of what could be done.

volchitsa · 07-07-2019 12:16PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Not really , theres quite a lot of evidence that most cyberbullying and social exclusion in schools is happening against girls, by other girls. Theres a lot of people suggesting that Ana lacked friends because other girls excluded her due to being more developped.

That may well be true, but there's no evidence that girls pushed boys into also bullying or excluding her, is there? And Boy B made it clear how he, a boy, saw her. No mention of him caring about the girls' views of her at all. That's all in your own mind, because you have issues with women.

radiotrickster · 07-07-2019 12:20PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Come again?
Why would there only be one school?
Sorry if I’m misreading your reply

I'm assuming they mean in rural areas where there might only be one school in the area that the child could travel to. If they get expelled, what happens next? Do they have to travel an extra hour to school every day or get homeschooled? Prove they're sorry and hope for redemption?

IMO there's no excuse for bullying. If the parents have only one school in the area, maybe it will make them step up and stop the bullying.

It's an awful situation for the parents of the bullied child to know there's no alternative school in the area where they could send their child to get away from the bully, so rather than having the bullied child's family worrying about where their child should go to school, expelling the bully puts that stress on the bully's parents and rightly so.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 07-07-2019 12:21PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Come again?
Why would there only be one school?
Sorry if I’m misreading your reply

Some places literally have one school. There are no viable options as the next school is so far away. Think of places in the shticks, where bullying is also an issue.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 12:28PM

Never thought of that. Thanks

Well that just makes zero tolerance more effective. This is the only school in the area.

Don’t be a complete cvnt and you don’t get thrown out.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 07-07-2019 12:44PM

radiotrickster wrote: »

I'm assuming they mean in rural areas where there might only be one school in the area that the child could travel to. If they get expelled, what happens next? Do they have to travel an extra hour to school every day or get homeschooled? Prove they're sorry and hope for redemption?

Absolute tough shíte I would say. Bullies cause serious issues for people. Get rid of them and let the parents figure it out. Not all parents of bullies are bad people, they may have done everything right, and should be given a chance to fix the problem. However, if it get to expulsion talks, then I have no sympathy for the little scrotes.

There's people on Boards with some not so nice stories about them being bullied and they have carried that with them all their lives.

Deep_learning · 07-07-2019 12:46PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/13/girls-more-likely-to-be-bullied-than-boys-english-schools-survey-finds

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil8OG636LjAhXfVxUIHT23BeAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-health-puberty-bullying%2Fearly-puberty-in-girls-tied-to-bullying-in-school-idUSKCN1II2NI&psig=AOvVaw2FXdAmsRS_Gfllknx6HQzc&ust=1562586767164285

Neither of these backup your twisted logic.

There is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim of bullying. Girls are more frequently the victims of bullying. Often the bullying is perpetrated by boys.

Stop moaning ffs · 07-07-2019 12:52PM

I’m no bully apologist.
But most these kids doing that, are just repeating what they see at home and have grown up with. Sometimes they’re the target at home and school is where they effect their own dominance and react in response.

Not every time. But often.

OwlsZat · 07-07-2019 12:57PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/13/girls-more-likely-to-be-bullied-than-boys-english-schools-survey-finds

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwil8OG636LjAhXfVxUIHT23BeAQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Farticle%2Fus-health-puberty-bullying%2Fearly-puberty-in-girls-tied-to-bullying-in-school-idUSKCN1II2NI&psig=AOvVaw2FXdAmsRS_Gfllknx6HQzc&ust=1562586767164285

Your first link says girls are more likely to be bullied, not like to be the bullied per your original point. Your second link is garbage.

Damien360 · 07-07-2019 12:58PM

rodge123 wrote: »

I think one posters suggestion of getting AGS involved in a great idea.
Allocate an extra few million to them to setup a nationwide team that will deal with it directly.
Anything reported to school is passsd onto this team who will deal with.
I reckon the majority of kids will stop the bullying fairly fast and not repeat it after been interviewed by a guard.
Maybe a system of three strikes and you get something on your record with guards.

That’s a very simplistic version of what could be done.

Kids don't fear the guards anymore. They would rise to them looking for an argument and a quick march to the courts for a payout if anyone touched them. It would be a mess. Enforcement would be impossible.

Keep it in the school system. Allow schools to expel without recourse if the procedures are followed (similar to companies). A points system similar to your 3 strikes and your out. But principals would have to be held to account for not dealing with bullying when it is reported to them.

Bullying goes much further than schools and companies have been successfully brought to court for failing to deal with reported bullying. Not sure if the fault is pointed at HR or the director of the company. Money fixes this (somewhat) but in a school it has to be a person's job that will be at stake as I don't believe money will fix it. The state would just payout but if a principals job is at stake over failure to act, then we might get on top of this.

As an aside, I also believe the state pays too often with no consequences for the person in state employment that caused it. It is always the system at fault. HSE is the biggest example of this. That's why I think, until jobs are at stake, little will change. And I don't mean the ministers as that's a cop out.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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