Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

n97 mini · 29-05-2019 06:25PM

Per kWh

creedp wrote: »

We'll see how diesel drivers react to equalising the petrol and diesel duty at the next election which must happen now following the 'green wave'. How would such opposition be described?

Even the Green Party are saying equalise the duty over 5 years, as the government was advised to do in the past. 2.2c per year until the 11c gap is made up.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

If course people will feel rightly angered by diesel being taxed again.

Diesel is odd in that it's under taxed, or just not as over taxed as petrol, depending on your POV. It has always been like this, but should never have been. I'm not sure why, possibly a sop to the rural lobby.

kanuseeme · 29-05-2019 06:51PM

I have filled my car 3 times, since I got it, I have done 320 km since the last fill and its still full, my old hybrid running on self charging fluid, would be at 75%, I find it about 20% less efficient on a run up to Dublin depending on season but fantastic on my average week .

I don't care about a fast charge fee, I don't care what other people drive, I feel sorry for the poor sod's stuck at a charger waiting for their turn, be it a phev, a local, what ever you imagine it is causing the problem. Being dependant on fast chargers is not my cup of tea. I would suggest to anyone buy a car that suits them better than that and they can continue on without any worry.

Diesel I believe will get a hike at some stage, my best bet is road tax first, then tax on fuels, and then there will be a mad rush to buy anything electric.

There are not enough chargers, I have suggested ways to maximise usage of chargers, but to think that phev drivers and locals are the cause of chargers being hogged is nonsense, they can only use so much, and when full they are gone. I will accept idiots who leave their car unattended.

The government is going to start paying emission fines at some point in the future and we will all be paying for that in our taxes, so if you want that, then be it.

If you want to get 150 kw into your car in 20 minutes use ionity or tesla and pay for it. If the government wants to reduce emissions then more fast chargers are needed surely 50kw chargers are cheaper than 150kw.
Encourage people to use it as much as possible, to start charging for charging, they will not use the network until there is an incentive to do so, i.e it is cheaper than diesel or petrol.

when there are Q's at petrol pumps they install more or another station opens up, but to think that freeing up fast chargers is the answer is wrong.

Investment is needed, Incentives are needed, planning is needed, 87 fast chargers on this island is ridiculous . how can you expect any one to buy an E.V. with that low number.

I agree at some stage, they should bring in charging, but with so low number of cars and chargers now, you would kill the advance of E.V's into this country.

I will go E.V with the right type of car and at the price I want to pay.

I am asking that the fines the government will be paying to be put into more chargers now to help this country switch to E.V's.

Johnboy1951 · 29-05-2019 07:19PM

+1 @kanuseeme

All this talk of moving people on from chargers is only pertinent because there are not enough chargers for the small few who want to use them presently.

That implies to me that a very large number of chargers are needed if the gov want most drivers to move to BEV.

Fix the charger situation and the delays disappear along with the majority of reasons for special time limits etc etc!

kanuseeme · 29-05-2019 07:33PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

+1 @kanuseeme

All this talk of moving people on from chargers is only pertinent because there are not enough chargers for the small few who want to use them presently.

That implies to me that a very large number of chargers are needed if the gov want most drivers to move to BEV.

Fix the charger situation and the delays disappear along with the majority of reasons for special time limits etc etc!

If a petrol car can fill up in 5 minutes then, it would have to be at least 5 x of the present number of fuel pumps, then there is range, how many times would you need to charge a leaf to get the same range as a diesel car, so then multiply that to get the final number.

I know faster charging will reduce the number, to really really start the ball rolling incentives and more fast chargers.

I forgot to include home charging, that would reduce the number, but in all fairness, one fast charger and 5 x 3.7 kw A.C at Dublin airport says it all really.

n97 mini · 29-05-2019 07:57PM

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

I am asking that the fines the government will be paying to be put into more chargers now to help this country switch to E.V's.

The fines are based on total emissions and we're an oddity in that we're producing enough beef/dairy to feed 40 million people, so our emissions from agriculture are way higher than they are from transport. I'd rather the money be put into incentivising farmers to just grow something else (wheat, barley, apples, sugar beet etc etc etc). If we reduced the herd size to a point where our herd was big enough to just feed ourselves, it'd be the equivalent of taking every car (including EVs), bus and truck off the road, *and* closing a few fossil fuel power stations.

kanuseeme · 29-05-2019 08:40PM

Ok fine with the fines, forget about the fast chargers then, we will ride the cows around and make full use of them, cannot wait for the thread on charging for riding or some such.

Will we reduce our herd size ?

there is more to consider than emissions, if we reduce our dependence on oil would that not be a good thing?

Black_Knight · 04-06-2019 09:48PM

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

If a petrol car can fill up in 5 minutes then, it would have to be at least 5 x of the present number of fuel pumps, then there is range, how many times would you need to charge a leaf to get the same range as a diesel car, so then multiply that to get the final number.

I know faster charging will reduce the number, to really really start the ball rolling incentives and more fast chargers.

I forgot to include home charging, that would reduce the number, but in all fairness, one fast charger and 5 x 3.7 kw A.C at Dublin airport says it all really.

A crucial thing to forget. Charging at home means you won't be filling up at "the pumps", so much less need for as many charging stations as petrol pumps.
I'd concede there will probably be "busy periods" at the chargers. ie. midday and evening times when everyone has been on the road and away from their home charger, but if your daily use means you need a fast charger, you've picked the wrong tool (car) for the job. Certainly at the moment, EVs are not for everyone.

liamog · 04-06-2019 11:50PM

Per kWh

I posted this on Facebook but it fits here.

In functioning European markets, home charging accounts for around 90% of EV usage. If we approximate there are 5,000 EVs in Ireland with an average annual mileage of 17,000km and an efficiency of 16kWh/100km then weekly rapid charge energy requirement should be around 26,000 kWh. If an average charge is 20kWh that's 1,300 charging events per week. We have about 70 rapid charges so that means each one should be used around 18.5 times per week or 2.6 times per day.

Our rapid charge infrastructure is used significantly more than that, implying that it is being over utilised. Likely due to a combination of people who could charge at home but choose not to, and its possible we also have a high number of users who can't charge at home.

Calahonda52 · 05-07-2019 07:55AM

Any more clarity on when the charging regime will actually come into being?

McGiver · 05-07-2019 08:51AM

kanuseeme wrote:

Investment is needed, Incentives are needed, planning is needed, 87 fast chargers on this island is ridiculous . how can you expect any one to buy an E.V. with that low number.

Just to compare, Czech Republic which is roughly the same area as Ireland, albeit twice as population, but 4 times less EVs, has 190 fast chargers. Prague only has like 50 of them. Roughly same population and area as Dublin which has like what.. 10 chargers?

unkel · 05-07-2019 11:33AM

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

creedp · 05-07-2019 12:01PM

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

To be fair Irish people, in continuing to drive ICE cars, are part funding this Norwegian miracle. The more we (and other countries) switch to EVs the less ability to poor Norwegian will have to continue to develop their EV infrastructure!!

September1 · 05-07-2019 12:23PM

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

I think that more than one, there is one Ionity, one easygo and couple Tesla's SCs.

05-07-2019 01:08PM

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

They need all the chargers due to the large number of registered electric vehicles. They had just over 200 000 pure BEVs at the end of the 2018. So roughly 1 rapid charging site per 100 vehicles. Also it can be up to over 1900 km drive between two major cities (Tromso-Stavanger) so they are needed on long trips over there..

The current Irish situation is pretty much the same ratio of cars per charging site. But the multiple chargers per site is very bad here. Also, as the EV sales are accelerating the network is getting less adequate every passing month. Wonder how many 192 registrations we will have this month?

Need to get the charging for charging going soon to cater for network expansion.

kanuseeme · 05-07-2019 01:35PM

samih wrote: »

They need all the chargers due to the large number of registered electric vehicles. They had just over 200 000 pure BEVs at the end of the 2018. So roughly 1 rapid charging site per 100 vehicles. Also it can be up to over 1900 km drive between two major cities (Tromso-Stavanger) so they are needed on long trips over there..

The current Irish situation is pretty much the same ratio of cars per charging site. But the multiple chargers per site is very bad here. Also, as the EV sales are accelerating the network is getting less adequate every passing month. Wonder how many 192 registrations we will have this month?

Need to get the charging for charging going soon to cater for network expansion.

What is the cost of charging in Norway? Any one know how many destination chargers they have?

No point putting in rapid chargers, if people are using them as a destination charger, I would like to see a few destination chargers beside/close to rapid chargers,

Reading this, https://www.thejournal.ie/electric-car-charging-points-4577464-Apr2019/

They plan to upgrade some 22kW sites to 50 k rapid chargers, will they replace those destination chargers?

grogi · 05-07-2019 01:42PM

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

What is the cost of charging in Norway? Any one know how many destination chargers they have?

No point putting in rapid chargers, if people are using them as a destination charger, I would like to see a few destination chargers beside/close to rapid chargers,

Reading this, https://www.thejournal.ie/electric-car-charging-points-4577464-Apr2019/

They plan to upgrade some 22kW sites to 50 k rapid chargers, will they replace those destination chargers?

AC chargers are around every corner. Total of around 12000 connections in 2019.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/696548/number-of-electric-car-charging-stations-in-norway-by-type/

ted1 · 05-07-2019 01:47PM

Nedved85 wrote: »

Per kWh up to a threshold then start changing based on time.

There is a fixed cost associated with providing the infrastructure, the energy use is variable.

x+y= price
X= price per minute for infrastructure costs
y=kWh

05-07-2019 02:34PM

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

What is the cost of charging in Norway

With Fortum which I have myself used in Sweden/Finland it costs normally around 0.20/min or equivalent at 50 kW chargers and this means 20 minutes connected is 4 yoyo. I think I saw 2 NOK/min mentioned somewhere so roughly the same price. Ionity is 80 NOK/80 SEK/8 YOYO everywhere at the moment fixed price.

I found the destination chargers largely bad value on my travels last summer on a car that charges at 6.6 kW but would have been ok with some other cars with up to 22 kW onboard chargers. But there were many totally free ones also around.

Round Cable · 05-07-2019 04:17PM

samih wrote: »

Need to get the charging for charging going soon to cater for network expansion.

Apparently ESB eCars will shortly announce rapid charge pricing, it should substantially free up the network.

kanuseeme · 05-07-2019 04:39PM

samih wrote: »

With Fortum which I have myself used in Sweden/Finland it costs normally around 0.20/min or equivalent at 50 kW chargers and this means 20 minutes connected is 4 yoyo. I think I saw 2 NOK/min mentioned somewhere so roughly the same price. Ionity is 80 NOK/80 SEK/8 YOYO everywhere at the moment fixed price.

I found the destination chargers largely bad value on my travels last summer on a car that charges at 6.6 kW but would have been ok with some other cars with up to 22 kW onboard chargers. But there were many totally free ones also around.

The bad value destination charger included parking by any chance?

Putting my self into a Norwegian outlander hogging pest mindset, 4 euro gets me 2.3 litres of petrol @ 1.73 euro = 37 km in an outlander, 20 mins would give me around 35 kms but in urban driving I believe I would get more. Cost neutral for me,

kanuseeme · 05-07-2019 04:39PM

Round Cable wrote: »

Apparently ESB eCars will shortly announce rapid charge pricing, it should substantially free up the network.

you think? Announcing and implementing are 2 different things, any way it will not make any difference till there is more chargers and when is that going to happen?

I would imagine its terrible in Dublin in the evenings with only one charger and an old leaf sucking away in single digit KwH's

05-07-2019 05:24PM

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

The bad value destination charger include parking by any chance?

Usually you would pay for both but often parking is free overnight after 5/6 pm until the next morning. But you would have to come to unplug the car when it's near fully charged as the destination chargers were something like say 0.50 kr/minute so 3 yoyo per hour and if you left the car plugged overnight for 10 hours it would be really expensive. Not surprisingly we were the only people using them but they were near the hotel so convenient and when travelling with an EV any charger is good at almost any price. But an unmonitored socket for granny charger is even better.

Somewhere like Belgium the charging was affordable i.e. low enough price billed per kWh for overnight parking and the parking charge itself also good. Holland was also great in this respect and parking at public transport hub also included a tram ticket at a nominal cost which makes a lot of sense.

McGiver · 05-07-2019 07:08PM

unkel wrote:

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

My point was that even less developed EV market has 8 times more FCPs per EV on the same area. No point comparing with more developed EV markets, it's just embarrassing

daheff · 05-07-2019 11:16PM

Nedved85 wrote: »

Per kWh up to a threshold then start changing based on time.

Easy to get around that...when you are near the time threshold..plug out... reset & plug back in

grogi · 05-07-2019 11:30PM

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

Norway has the same population as Ireland. They have near 2000 fast charging locations most with multiple stalls, one even with 44 stalls

Compare that to Irelands 87 fast charging locations, all (except one) just with 1 stall :rolleyes:

Based on the data I've seen, I don't believe there are 2000 locations, but 2000 stalls in Norway. They certainly don't have ~500 supercharger locations...

Black_Knight · 06-07-2019 09:23AM

Per kWh

daheff wrote: »

Easy to get around that...when you are near the time threshold..plug out... reset & plug back in

Not if done right. The threshold should be based on your battery %, rather than the number of kw you've consumed

grogi · 06-07-2019 09:34AM

Per kWh

Black_Knight wrote: »

Not if done right. The threshold should be based on your battery %, rather than the number of kw you've consumed

And it gets overly complicated...

Mickeroo · 06-07-2019 09:43AM

Per kWh

Black_Knight wrote: »

Not if done right. The threshold should be based on your battery %, rather than the number of kw you've consumed

Easier to just base it on the rfid or whatever surely. Same rfid starts a charge a few seconds after it stops one then it stays on the higher rate.

KCross · 06-07-2019 12:04PM

Doesn’t the charge protocol have the ability to read the cars VIN?

Should be trivial to implement it once you have that.

Johnboy1951 · 06-07-2019 12:18PM

If and when the charging network is fit for purpose there will be no need for such time charging, unless abuse exists.

Just charge per KWh ..... simple, effective and has the benefit of charging for what is delivered!

If the chargers are still being abused then charge for time the vehicle is left connected after a full charge is attained, with maybe a 15 min grace period between end of charge and disconnection.

Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

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