Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

Kramer · 27-05-2019 08:21PM #1

Simple options;
Charge me:
Per minute or
Per kWh

September1 · 28-05-2019 08:46AM

Per kWh

What if someone prefers both at same time?

slave1 · 28-05-2019 08:50AM

It's not as simple as this, per minute will punish those with EV's that take slower DC, per kw will not encourage charged or those EVs throttling end stage charge to vacate the charge spot and leave.

Answer has to be c) Hybrid charging convention

grogi · 28-05-2019 09:42AM

Per kWh

Per minute with increasing rate at DC (exp. start at 25c/min, increasing to 50c/Mon after 15 mins and €1/min after next 15 mins). That way you can top-up cheaply if you need it (30 mins at the charger would cost you €11), but charger blockers would pay premium.

Per kWh at AC chargers.

We should charge for what is sparse. We have enough electricity, but far too few DC chargers.

Nedved85 · 28-05-2019 10:07AM

Per kWh up to a threshold then start changing based on time.

MrMusician18 · 28-05-2019 06:42PM

A tax of somewhere between 25c to 50c per kwh should be levied on users. This could be used to find the rollout of an expanded network

Scottie99 · 28-05-2019 09:29PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

A tax of somewhere between 25c to 50c per kwh should be levied on users. This could be used to find the rollout of an expanded network

How about a tax ICE fuel to further the roll out? Know doubt it wouldn’t be popular.

jimmycrackcorm · 28-05-2019 10:04PM

Per kWh

Scottie99 wrote: »

How about a tax ICE fuel to further the roll out? Know doubt it wouldn’t be popular.

That's an example of an effective green policy for carbon taxes
People can't revolt to much of you say we're going up carbon taxes but putting that money directly back into better charging infrastructure as part of the response to our declared collate emergency.

jimmycrackcorm · 28-05-2019 10:08PM

Per kWh

Anyway. It has to be put minute charging over kWh simply because it's a limited shared facility and utilisation should be provided for as many users as possible

Johnboy1951 · 28-05-2019 10:30PM

Per Kw ...... it is sale of electrical energy, so charge for the energy taken.

Charge a base rate up to a battery charge level .... say 80% ...... and then hike up the price for those hogging the charger, regardless the speed of charge.

This does not punish those who cannot afford those vehicles with super chargers any more than it does those who can.

unkel · 28-05-2019 10:46PM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Per Kw ...... it is sale of electrical energy

It's not. It's the sale of a service. The service of fast charging.

At home you drink a glass of coke and it costs you €0.30c. If you are out and about and want to sit down somewhere comfortable and warm and drink a cold coke, the restaurant / cafe will charge you €3

Kramer · 28-05-2019 11:07PM

Per kWh

unkel wrote: »

It's not. It's the sale of a service.

Is purchasing petrol or diesel in a forecourt purchasing a service too then?
Similar expensive infrastructure, underground tanks, pumps, staff etc., plus huge taxation

Energy is a commodity, be it fossil fuels or electricity.

By all means recoup the capital expenditure for the infrastructure & maintainence of fast chargers, but charging many, many multiples of the wholesale cost of electricity while the margin on fossil fuels is mere cents, seems crazy to me

.

unkel · 28-05-2019 11:36PM

Kramer wrote: »

Is purchasing petrol or diesel in a forecourt purchasing a service too then?

It would be if each pump cost €100k to install and it would take 45 minutes to fill up.

Johnboy1951 · 28-05-2019 11:41PM

unkel wrote: »

It's not. It's the sale of a service. The service of fast charging.

At home you drink a glass of coke and it costs you €0.30c. If you are out and about and want to sit down somewhere comfortable and warm and drink a cold coke, the restaurant / cafe will charge you €3

The €3 cost is to cover overheads and (exorbitant IMO) profit margin ...... they could hardly allow people to serve themselves!

I have never been charged extra for dallying at a table and not drinking or eating quickly, which is the equivalent of the alternative suggestion for charging.

It is selling energy similar to the sale of ICE fuel as has been pointed out.

Yes some forecourts charged a bit extra because they had staff to dispense the fuel and take the payment etc.
That was service.
There is no such service at charge points.

creedp · 29-05-2019 10:26AM

unkel wrote: »

It's not. It's the sale of a service. The service of fast charging.

At home you drink a glass of coke and it costs you €0.30c. If you are out and about and want to sit down somewhere comfortable and warm and drink a cold coke, the restaurant / cafe will charge you €3

Yea but you can instead just go to a Spar and buy it for a €1 ... a reasonable comparison with EV charging could be charging a premium for the 150kw super chargers (i.e. restaurant prices) but charging a reasonable price for the std 50kw ones (i.e. Spar prices)

unkel · 29-05-2019 10:31AM

creedp wrote: »

a reasonable comparison with EV charging could be charging a premium for the 150kw super chargers (i.e. restaurant prices) but charging a reasonable price for the std 50kw ones (i.e. Spar prices)

Agreed. That's why I suggested in my response to the ESB to keep slow chargers free and only charge for fast chargers. Maybe a further split out then. How about 35c/minute for 50kW chargers and 60c/minute for 175kW/350kW chargers? And a monthly sub of say €25 but much lower per minute rates for apartment dwellers?

MrMusician18 · 29-05-2019 12:54PM

Scottie99 wrote: »

How about a tax ICE fuel to further the roll out? Know doubt it wouldn’t be popular.

Why should the rest of the country fund what are essentially greenwashed toys for the wealthy middle classes?

unkel · 29-05-2019 01:02PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why should the rest of the country fund what are essentially greenwashed toys for the wealthy middle classes?

You prefer it if we keep using cancerous diesel cars and pay huge emissions fines ad perpetuum or that we leave this place to our children in a cleaner state?

kanuseeme · 29-05-2019 01:24PM

Incentives will encourage people to stop using cancerous diesel cars, why not divert early,the emission fines into more chargers now and let them free,

to combat locals, maybe have chargers blocked near you and only chargers further a field usable.

honestly I think its mad to charge for charging at some of the rates, it would not pay me to do it. it will be more cancerous product from me if it happens.

MrMusician18 · 29-05-2019 01:41PM

unkel wrote: »

You prefer it if we keep using cancerous diesel cars and pay huge emissions fines ad perpetuum or that we leave this place to our children in a cleaner state?

Any you really think encouraging consumerism, and incentivising people to buy more is the way to achieve that. Would it not be better if the transition was gradual instead of forcing all the legacy vehicles with their sunk carbon cost off the road prematurely? And in a gradual transition, users can fund their own network.

The private car in the transport sector is a much smaller proportion of emissions than most people realise anyway. It's the pervasiveness of the car (what you can see is what you think is important) that makes people think they have a much greater impact than they actually do.

cruizer101 · 29-05-2019 01:48PM

unkel wrote: »

You prefer it if we keep using cancerous diesel cars and pay huge emissions fines ad perpetuum or that we leave this place to our children in a cleaner state?

I'd prefer if there was more encouragement to keep cars on the road longer rather than the current trend of regularly replacing cars resulting in perfectly fine cars getting scrapped just because they are old. However the vrt pot is far too big for the government to consider anything along thay line.

While I do agree there should be encouragement towards electric vehicles there has to be a balance between carrot and stick approach.
And if you are going to use the stick, more tax on fossil fuels, the network needs to be there for those you expect to move over.
It is a bit catch 22, where do you get the money from to upgrade network but you can't expect people to change in droves till it is there.

creedp · 29-05-2019 02:36PM

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. That's why I suggested in my response to the ESB to keep slow chargers free and only charge for fast chargers. Maybe a further split out then. How about 35c/minute for 50kW chargers and 60c/minute for 175kW/350kW chargers? And a monthly sub of say €25 but much lower per minute rates for apartment dwellers?

Agree with a split tariff in favour of lower powered chargers but the €25 monthly subscription would be prohibitive for people who may not use FCPS every month.

MrMusician18 · 29-05-2019 02:45PM

creedp wrote: »

Agree with a split tariff in favour of lower powered chargers but the €25 monthly subscription would be prohibitive for people who may not use FCPS every month.

The people you are trying to convert pay more than €25 every time they fill with petrol/diesel.

The only reason for opposition to this kind of model is that EV drivers do not want to pay their fair share for the shared road infrastructure and their own charging network.

It's like the opposition to water charges, however those opposing for paying for this are a distinctly sanctimonious, sandal wearing, tofu eating opposition.

Sabre Man · 29-05-2019 02:55PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why should the rest of the country fund what are essentially greenwashed toys for the wealthy middle classes?

Everybody benefits from clean air. With a better infrastructure and more choice of EVs, more people will buy EVs, which means the less wealthy can buy a used EV sooner rather than later.

MrMusician18 · 29-05-2019 03:09PM

Sabre Man wrote: »

Everybody benefits from clean air. With a better infrastructure and more choice of EVs, more people will buy EVs, which means the less wealthy can buy a used EV sooner rather than later.

No one benefits from congestion, which is what the end result of cheap to run private transport will be.

grogi · 29-05-2019 03:40PM

Per kWh

creedp wrote: »

Agree with a split tariff in favour of lower powered chargers but the €25 monthly subscription would be prohibitive for people who may not use FCPS every month.

Use frequently - get subscription and reduced rates.
Not use often - no subscription...

Sabre Man · 29-05-2019 04:10PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No one benefits from congestion, which is what the end result of cheap to run private transport will be.

While that's true, EV congestion is better than ICE congestion. Urban congestion can be solved by providing better and cheaper public transport, while using tolls to deter car use.

29-05-2019 04:12PM

Per kWh

kanuseeme wrote: »

Incentives will encourage people to stop using cancerous diesel cars, why not divert early,the emission fines into more chargers now and let them free,

to combat locals, maybe have chargers blocked near you and only chargers further a field usable.

honestly I think its mad to charge for charging at some of the rates, it would not pay me to do it. it will be more cancerous product from me if it happens.

In my opinion the notion that public chargers are there to save you money is a really bad one and result in the situation where you are almost guaranteed not be able to use one when you need it. Most of your charging should be done at home or work where you are responsible for providing a charger for your use. The cost on driving on electricity is so low that you are guaranteed to save money by using an EV. You can drive 20000 kilometers a year on night rate electricity for a price of a few tanks of fuel. That's seriously cheap.

Whenever there is free charging, the system gets abused as we have seen in Ireland. Locals should hardly ever have need to use the DC chargers anyway and in case they need them after the commute for example to get somewhere else in a hurry, pricing at "restaurant prices" should be the norm to keep the queues short. And the chargers should be installed where it's convenient to access them when passing through/by the area.

For local and destination charging there should just be banks of AC charging points situated conveniently near the shops cinemas restaurants. These should be priced around the same as it would cost to charge at home and would be plenty for PHEV drivers and ones without their own chargers. But even they should be slighlty more expensive than charging at home/work to ensure that they are not used just because they are there but because you need to use them. For PHEV users these would save on petrol/diesel and for BEV user they would allow enough charge for their return leg to whereever they are coming from. A small charge would ensure you have access to them when you need them.

creedp · 29-05-2019 04:21PM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The people you are trying to convert pay more than €25 every time they fill with petrol/diesel.

The only reason for opposition to this kind of model is that EV drivers do not want to pay their fair share for the shared road infrastructure and their own charging network.

It's like the opposition to water charges, however those opposing for paying for this are a distinctly sanctimonious, sandal wearing, tofu eating opposition.

We'll see how diesel drivers react to equalising the petrol and diesel duty at the next election which must happen now following the 'green wave'. How would such opposition be described?

MrMusician18 · 29-05-2019 04:55PM

creedp wrote: »

We'll see how diesel drivers react to equalising the petrol and diesel duty at the next election which must happen now following the 'green wave'. How would such opposition be described?

The green puddle more like.

If course people will feel rightly angered by diesel being taxed again. They bought into the system created by the glasraí the last time they were in office, leading to the scrapping of hundreds of thousands of perfectly serviceable petrol cars that suddenly became expensive to run at great carbon cost to the environment as well as monetary cost to the individual.

And the will do it to EVs in ten years time again, when they find some sort of environmental issue with them.

LeBash · 29-05-2019 06:15PM

Per kWh

Charging out per 5 min block would be the way to go imho. Need to keep people rotating at the chargers

Charging for charging - per minute or per kWh?

I'd rather pay for charging 58 votes

Comments