Taking a child out of gaelscoil?

G&T22 · 02-07-2019 5:00pm #1

Hi
My 6 yr old had an assesment by a psychologist. He has just finished junior infants in a gaelscoil. The psychologist has now recommended we take him out of the gael scoil (which he loves) and put him into a English speaking school and to keep him back a year. I was very shocked to hear this. He has language difficulties and is at the fifth percentile. I just don't know where to go from here... schools are closed...any advice would be appreciated.

byhookorbycrook · 02-07-2019 7:08pm

Has he had a speech and language assessment?If not, that would be my next port of call.

Most children with SEN can do as well in an Irish-medium school as they will in an English speaking one.I'm surprised the psychologist mentioned "keeping a child " back, all of the research says that this isn't helpful at best and can seriously impact on a child's self esteem.
https://www.cdl.org/articles/grade-retention-achievement-and-mental-health-outcomes/

G&T22 · 02-07-2019 8:51pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Has he had a speech and language assessment?If not, that would be my next port of call.

Most children with SEN can do as well in an Irish-medium school as they will in an English speaking one.I'm surprised the psychologist mentioned "keeping a child " back, all of the research says that this isn't helpful at best and can seriously impact on a child's self esteem.
https://www.cdl.org/articles/grade-retention-achievement-and-mental-health-outcomes/

Yes. He was attending the primary care team s&l for about 8 weeks and was called back for a review this week. He only did half of the assesment last week so due back again this week. He refused to complete it saying he didn't know the answer. I plan on talking to her this week about what was said.

The psychologist said; research tells us, which is that students that are struggling to acquire their first language struggle significantly in a second language.

seasidedub · 02-07-2019 9:02pm

Bull, bull, bull. Kids can learn 2nd, 3rd and more languages easily. My daughter was born abroad and went to kindergarten , primary and secondary school in that country via the language of that country. When she was little she had the usual state psychology assessment to id any issues in kids. He told me that speaking one language in school and another at home was "confusing " her. Nonsense. There are bilingual kids all over the world. I just pressed on. Knowing 2 languages natively has meant she learns new ones in about 2 months. She studies language in uni here in Dublin and is on her 6th now.
Get a psychologist who understands about language and will work with you.

Stephen15 · 02-07-2019 9:07pm

If the child is happy in the Gaelscoil why take him/her out. If the child is having difficulties with the Irish speaking element then they wouldn't love being in a Gaelscoil surely.

G&T22 · 02-07-2019 9:14pm

The fact that he is not grasping his first language well at all is the problem which leads to problems in learning everything through Irish. Well that was my understanding of what was said. She is a very good psychologist and have had her recomendation from an OT and through a resource teacher I know said she is very reputiple. I am just so shocked with her suggestion I have been in turmoil all day and feel so guilty even though I know I shouldn't... I appreciate all of the replies and points of view it will help me consider our next step.

Corca Baiscinn · 02-07-2019 9:58pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Has he had a speech and language assessment?If not, that would be my next port of call.

Most children with SEN can do as well in an Irish-medium school as they will in an English speaking one.I'm surprised the psychologist mentioned "keeping a child " back, all of the research says that this isn't helpful at best and can seriously impact on a child's self esteem.
https://www.cdl.org/articles/grade-retention-achievement-and-mental-health-outcomes/

I haven't read your link yet but but while it may be the case in general that a child with an SEN will do fine in a Gaelscoil remember that the op says that the difficulty refers specifically to language so that puts a different complexion on it

Corca Baiscinn · 02-07-2019 10:00pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

If the child is happy in the Gaelscoil why take him/her out. If the child is having difficulties with the Irish speaking element then they wouldn't love being in a Gaelscoil surely.

He has only finished Junior Infants so the actual amount of Irish has been scanty so far one assumes and he may well love the teacher, the atmosphere, being with his friends etc

Tigerandahalf · 02-07-2019 10:13pm

The psychologist is correct here. If your child is struggling to speak its first language (its primary means of communicating) it won't help them by being in a classroom where a different language is spoken.

You don't say why your child has issues with language - is it hearing related, language delay or some other issue.

Nothing wrong with keeping a kid at a class level for a 2nd year either. They may benefit from it hugely especially in the early years.

Corca Baiscinn · 02-07-2019 10:18pm

G&T22 wrote: »

The fact that he is not grasping his first language well at all is the problem which leads to problems in learning everything through Irish. Well that was my understanding of what was said. She is a very good psychologist and have had her recomendation from an OT and through a resource teacher I know said she is very reputiple. I am just so shocked with her suggestion I have been in turmoil all day and feel so guilty even though I know I shouldn't... I appreciate all of the replies and points of view it will help me consider our next step.

OP of course its understandable that you're in turmoil so take some time to absorb the advice and results and of course you have to complete the other half of the assessment which might clarify things a bit. The advice above re bilingualism being no problem for children is not relevant in your case because you are talking as you said re acquisition of his first language. I would be inclined to listen carefully to the psychologist's advice re change of school even though of course it will be disruptive, maybe not even easy depending on where you live. Not trying to add to your stress but bear in mind it might even be recommended that your boy be exempted from Irish to avoid confusion.

Ask the psychologist and the SLT re how you can help him yourselves over the summer . Also while schools are closed its only since last Thurs/Fri, so principals may still be around doing end of year admin or the school may be running courses so there may be someone to talk to.

I'd be a bit concerned re the blow to his self-esteem of repeating the year. I wonder could he proceed to Senior Infants and avail of resource teaching. Is he barely 6 or well 6 and is he small or big for his age? More children are 5 than 4 now starting off so maybe the gap isn't so bad.

As for the guilt, again, most of us have been there over some aspect of parenting so dont beat yourself up

Tigerandahalf · 02-07-2019 10:18pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

He has only finished Junior Infants so the actual amount of Irish has been scanty so far one assumes and he may well love the teacher, the atmosphere, being with his friends etc

Gaelscoileanna have a 'total immersion' policy so it could be the case that Irish is only spoken in the classroom except for English/phonics lessons.

Reati · 02-07-2019 10:26pm

G&T22 wrote: »

The psychologist said; research tells us, which is that students that are struggling to acquire their first language struggle significantly in a second language.

Research tells us lots of stuff doesn't mean it applies. I'd be asking to see said research and note the assumptions and proven causations.

Anyway, just to clarify, is your child is struggling with English but is OK with Irish? Or struggling with both?

G&T22 · 02-07-2019 10:29pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The psychologist is correct here. If your child is struggling to speak its first language (its primary means of communicating) it won't help them by being in a classroom where a different language is spoken.

You don't say why your child has issues with language - is it hearing related, language delay or some other issue.

Nothing wrong with keeping a kid at a class level for a 2nd year either. They may benefit from it hugely especially in the early years.

It is speech and language delay. He can still talk the hind legs off a donkey! He also has fine motor skills problems.

Corca Baiscinn · 02-07-2019 10:31pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Gaelscoileanna have a 'total immersion' policy so it could be the case that Irish is only spoken in the classroom except for English/phonics lessons.

Yes of course, I meant that since most of the children likely come from English speaking homes and are aged 5 ad settling in to a new environment, the instructions/dialogue are likely simple, "Suígí síos", "Tógaigí sos a pháistí", "Amach libh" or whatever Likely not overly stressful as mouthfuls of sentences not required from the children

Reati · 02-07-2019 10:43pm

G&T22 wrote: »

It is speech and language delay. He can still talk the hind legs off a donkey! He also has fine motor skills problems.

I guess it comes down to why you have the child in a Gaelscoil now. For example, If you have a passion for Irish and want them to be a fluent strong speaker of it, then you will need to work a plan for the child to stay at the Gaelscoil.

If they are there for other reasons, it's worth asking which is more important, solving the language delay issues with English or them having Irish.

I'd argue having both languages should be the goal and a action plan to solve the other issues at play is drawn up. I'm biased though as I believe bilingualism is a key skill that all child and adults should aim to have.

Tigerandahalf · 02-07-2019 10:45pm

G&T22 wrote: »

It is speech and language delay. He can still talk the hind legs off a donkey! He also has fine motor skills problems.

Is it that he is difficult to understand and not pronouncing his words correctly so?

I would have his hearing tested. You could then rule that out.
When you say he has motor skill issues this could also mean that the muscles in his mouth that control how he makes sounds may also be affected/delayed.

Was he in preschool?

G&T22 · 02-07-2019 11:01pm

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Is it that he is difficult to understand and not pronouncing his words correctly so?

I would have his hearing tested. You could then rule that out.
When you say he has motor skill issues this could also mean that the muscles in his mouth that control how he makes sounds may also be affected/delayed.

Was he in preschool?

Hearing all good. Fine motor skills i.e. writing, cutting but has really come on in this area. Prnoucination is part but understanding questions also. Today he didn't understand what backwards was. Or he couldn't tell you why say 2 items are similar. A swing and a slide why are they similar? He could not answer that.

G&T22 · 02-07-2019 11:03pm

G&T22 wrote: »

Hearing all good. Fine motor skills i.e. writing, cutting but has really come on in this area. Prnoucination is part but understanding questions also. Today he didn't understand what backwards was. Or he couldn't tell you why say 2 items are similar. A swing and a slide why are they similar? He could not answer that.

Sorry just to add he attended preschool for 2 terms. They reported fine motor skills issues which I was working with him on.

ted1 · 02-07-2019 11:04pm

G&T22 wrote: »

Hi
My 6 yr old had an assesment by a psychologist. He has just finished junior infants in a gaelscoil. The psychologist has now recommended we take him out of the gael scoil (which he loves) and put him into a English speaking school and to keep him back a year. I was very shocked to hear this. He has language difficulties and is at the fifth percentile. I just don't know where to go from here... schools are closed...any advice would be appreciated.

I’d get a second opinion. I bet the feeling that he doesn’t understand how GaelScoils work

Tigerandahalf · 02-07-2019 11:16pm

G&T22 wrote: »

Hearing all good. Fine motor skills i.e. writing, cutting but has really come on in this area. Prnoucination is part but understanding questions also. Today he didn't understand what backwards was. Or he couldn't tell you why say 2 items are similar. A swing and a slide why are they similar? He could not answer that.

That is definitely an area for a psychologist to look at. Perhaps he has difficulty with picturing things in his head and memory issues.

Most kids will know what a slide or swing is having been on them. Was he shown pictures of a slide/swing or just had the words spoken to him? I presume the word 'similar' wasn't just used - using phrases like 'are they different?', 'why is this not a slide?' would be more appropriate for a 5/6 year old.

byhookorbycrook · 03-07-2019 12:04am

I’d await the second part of the SLT assessment before rushing into anything . Some psychologists seem to recommend moving a child from a Gaelscoil as a default.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 03-07-2019 12:14am

I would ignore the advice given. It's fluff. The child's happy, leave him be.

Calhoun · 03-07-2019 12:24am

Was the psychologist brought in by the school or how did it work? What has the existing school done for his development plan if anything?

I wouldn't be pulling him out of anything until they let you know how they are meeting his needs.

Has the SENO being involved?

James Bond Junior · 03-07-2019 12:53am

Lorelei Narrow Ritual wrote: »

I would ignore the advice given. It's fluff. The child's happy, leave him be.

On what grounds would you say it is fluff?

G&T22 · 03-07-2019 10:50am

Calhoun wrote: »

Was the psychologist brought in by the school or how did it work? What has the existing school done for his development plan if anything?

I wouldn't be pulling him out of anything until they let you know how they are meeting his needs.

Has the SENO being involved?

He was referred by an OT not the school. The school have a good set up regarding resource teaching but I really need to have a meeting with the teaching team going forward.

G&T22 · 03-07-2019 10:53am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That is definitely an area for a psychologist to look at. Perhaps he has difficulty with picturing things in his head and memory issues.

Most kids will know what a slide or swing is having been on them. Was he shown pictures of a slide/swing or just had the words spoken to him? I presume the word 'similar' wasn't just used - using phrases like 'are they different?', 'why is this not a slide?' would be more appropriate for a 5/6 year old.

He was shown a picture of 3 items and to pick out the two that were similar which he did. He was asked to say why they are alike or similar as in they are both in a playground or you can play on them etc

Kathnora · 03-07-2019 11:34am

As an experienced primary teacher I think children should only be sent to a gaelscoil if the Irish language is an integral part of the child's life and not just something that's used during school hours only. So many children who attend a gaelscoil never encounter Irish outside of their school day. Many parents don't speak it or have lost it (and of course that's one of the motivating factors behind sending a child to a gaelscoil). Of course the average child who attends a gaelscoil will benefit and have an advantage over other children when they enter secondary school. I get all that. But, a child with S&L difficulties is struggling right now. Ok, byhookorbycrook recommended waiting on the outcome of the final assessment before making a final decision...fair enough. The child's first language is English and presumably that is the language he hears most often. He needs support and resource teaching. He needs time to catch up on his peers if he is experiencing a difficulty in processing and understanding language and in the past year he has been immersed in a whole new language. I feel so sorry for the child. Ok, the child is happy in the school but that is not a good enough reason for leaving him there. Yes, being happy is important and children learn better when they are content and stress free but we all send our children to school to learn and reach their potential. I think that has to be the priority in this case. Every parent wants to do right by their child and no one wants to see a child struggle with a second language when they have issues with their first language. A move to another school may be daunting but children are very adaptable and such challenges can often turn out to be "a 9 day wonder". Parents can often worry a lot more than the children do!
Some posters suggested that a second language should be no bother but I think they are forgetting that perhaps their children are very bright whizz kids and the op's child has specific difficulties right now.

Calhoun · 03-07-2019 1:03pm

You really need to think it over OP and consider what is best for your child. Remember that the person that is best advocate for your child is yourself.

The school and teachers may not necessarily have your childs best interest at heart and could be looking to just pass a problem on. I am not saying that is happening in this case but as a father of a daughter with special needs i have had our school try and get us voluntarily to pull her from school, and even go as far as suggesting we don't bring her to social events like a sports day.

There is statutory protection for children when it comes to education and that is not just in terms of the learning but also social skills, so you have to make sure that they have at least being trying to work with your child.

I would also not pull them out voluntarily without making sure you have the support in place elsewhere.

Reati · 03-07-2019 2:36pm

Kathnora wrote: »

As an experienced primary teacher I think children should only be sent to a gaelscoil if the Irish language is an integral part of the child's life and not just something that's used during school hours only. So many children who attend a gaelscoil never encounter Irish outside of their school day.

I agree and disagree but that's for another thread.

You have touched on a point I was tried to ask earlier about what the goal of having the child in the Gaelscoil is and taking that into account when making a next step decision.

G&T22 · 03-07-2019 8:20pm

Thanks everyone. We are making inquiries to send him to an English speaking school. We have spoken to a principal but it has to go to the board .management?

byhookorbycrook · 03-07-2019 9:40pm

No, not at all.

Taking a child out of gaelscoil?

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