Kildare farmer objects to €8bn Intel investment...

Edgware · 02-07-2019 08:17AM

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

That's right, scones and tea cosies are all this country is capable of creating or producing on our own... :rolleyes:

We have no raw materials, the EU are intent on undermining the agriculture industry with thr deals in South America. Who is going to provide employment?
Its wishful thinking to say we can be self sufficient. Every development is delayed or abandoned because of Nimbys many who have safe Civil Service and Public Service jobs

Deebles McBeebles · 02-07-2019 08:21AM

Just concentrate all our efforts on spuds. History teaches us that this always works out and there will be no problems, ever.

ShlugEireann · 02-07-2019 08:21AM

_Brian wrote: »

Honestly I’d worry more about financial and software companies “walking away tomorrow” as they have no hard fixed infrastructure.

Intel on he other hand will literally burry billions of € into the ground and site delicate expensive equipment that takes months to install and commission, these facilities need to be worked to recoup the massive investment involved. It’s not something they would walk away from overnight, even to decommission, pack and ship out their old equipment takes months to years, not overnight.

If it made sense long term they wouldn't care about the costs involved.

They added 1bn on a whim to their capital budget for additional 14nm capacity and they started construction immediately in a number of locations where 14nm is made (including Ireland).

MrMusician18 · 02-07-2019 08:24AM

Edgware wrote: »

We have no raw materials, the EU are intent on undermining the agriculture industry with thr deals in South America. Who is going to provide employment?
Its wishful thinking to say we can be self sufficient. Every development is delayed or abandoned because of Nimbys many who have safe Civil Service and Public Service jobs

Bit of an unfair characterisation of the EU there. The agriculture industry wouldn't exist at all without the EU here and the Mercosur deal is the only one of the recent deals that will negatively impact the beef sector, dairy was a winner btw.

Incidentally beef was a winner in the Japanese and South Korean deals recently.

Snow Garden · 02-07-2019 08:40AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I hope this is not another Apple in Galway fiasco

This time the cost could be far more real and devastating for this area than Apple in Galway.

I believe Apple abandoned plans to build a 2nd data centre in Denmark.

REBELSAFC · 02-07-2019 08:49AM

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Perspective please, these corporations are not the godsent saving grace you seem to think they are. These are not the only employers here. We need to focus on backing the small start ups more, encourage the self employed, nurture the SME's. That's where the future of Ireland is, in the small local businesses with a vested interest in the local areas they are set up in.

Not a multinational corporation who couldn't care whether it was set up in Sandymount or Sahara once its investors get their shovels of cash.

Eamonn DeValera likes this post

InTheShadows · 02-07-2019 08:51AM

Amazing man who is an example to us all.

InTheShadows · 02-07-2019 08:53AM

ShlugEireann wrote: »

How many jobs does the area need? Our unemployment figures can't get any lower. In fact, more jobs just increases wages for professionals while minimum wage workers don't get that rise so the wealth inequality increases.

And is it really good to have such a single mammoth employer? If Intel left tomorrow (which could easily happen) the whole area would collapse.

Will ya go away out of that with that sense.

Poor Uncle Tom · 02-07-2019 08:54AM

REBELSAFC wrote: »

Eamonn DeValera likes this post

I thought I heard some spinning.

Shefwedfan · 02-07-2019 08:57AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Indeed it would. That's why I can't understand why anyone would support this crank abusing the planning process to settle a grudge.

It’s not ok for the banks to throw someone out of their house when they don’t pay.....a house the bank owns till the last payment

But it is ok for Intel? When the person is fully paid up and owns the land

What sort of a crazy world do we live in

Buford T. Justice XIX · 02-07-2019 08:58AM

ShlugEireann wrote: »

If it made sense long term they wouldn't care about the costs involved.

They added 1bn on a whim to their capital budget for additional 14nm capacity and they started construction immediately in a number of locations where 14nm is made (including Ireland).

Tbh, I don't think you understand the investment protocols carried out by these companies.

Shefwedfan · 02-07-2019 09:05AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Deciding to invest billions of dollars in building a new plant in not a whim.

For intel etc it is? They could invest and in 6 months time something changes and they will write it off and open another plant in some other country

How much will the government put up towards it as well

MrMusician18 · 02-07-2019 09:22AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s not ok for the banks to throw someone out of their house when they don’t pay.....a house the bank owns till the last payment

But it is ok for Intel? When the person is fully paid up and owns the land

What sort of a crazy world do we live in

Intel are not trying to put this man off his land. That battle is over. This development has no impact on him or his farm.

So what is motivating him? Have a think about it.

There is almost certainly going to be planning reform now in this country and the ability to object and appeal is going to be further curtailed. The system is set up on a kind of honour system in that you shouldn't object unless you feel you have a valid objection. In fact it used to be free until we had a couple of cranks going around the country objecting to everything. The system is not meant to be used to settle scores, retribution or vengeance.

And there will be public support for these changes as a consequence of objections to the like of Apple and Intel. We will all lose as a result.

Call me Al · 02-07-2019 09:23AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Don’t be so dramatic

All I’m saying is we don’t have to bend over backwards to every whim they have

Poster is not being dramatic at all.
Their decision to invest billions in the newest processing technology is not a whim either. They employ thousands of people in well paid jobs and sustain multiple '000s more jobs.

I'm glad Mr Reid won his case back in 2015. His cause was a just one. But I think at this stage his objections to the new development, which don't infringe on his property rights, are vexatious. I believe that planning authorities will see them for what they are.

Re his living conditions and mental health, well that is his own business, but if things don't change a point will come as he gets older where his home will become uninhabitable. At the moment i think it is a tinder box.

02-07-2019 09:28AM

@MrMusician

They treated him like a piece of crap thinking they could walk all over him.

Firstly, intel went directly to him wanting to buy his land and he said no.

Then, the IDA attempted to CPO his land and the courts found that was not in their powers.

The barrister for IDA let the cat out of the bag in knowing that intel had approached him first. How would they know that if the CPO was meant to be separate to intel?

MrMusician18 · 02-07-2019 09:34AM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

@MrMusician

They treated him like a piece of crap thinking they could walk all over him.

Firstly, intel went directly to him wanting to buy his land and he said no.

Then, the IDA attempted to CPO his land and the courts found that was not in their powers.

The barrister for IDA let the cat out of the bag in knowing that intel had approached him first. How would they know that if the CPO was meant to be separate to intel?

And what has that for to do with Intel wanting to expand on their own land now, away from him and his farm? That battle is over, it's time to move on.

02-07-2019 09:42AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And what has that for to do with Intel wanting to expand on their own land now, away from him and his farm? That battle is over, it's time to move on.

If they didn’t try to be so underhand with him then maybe they’d have their expansion already. They made life difficult for him so he’s doing the same to them. More power to the man.

MrMusician18 · 02-07-2019 09:48AM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

If they didn’t try to be so underhand with him then maybe they’d have their expansion already. They made life difficult for him so he’s doing the same to them. More power to the man.

So your saying that his complaint is vexatious?

How long should someone be allowed to frustrate someone else even after they've had court judgement in their favour? Should we be allowing the planning process to be used in such a way?

Seth Brundle · 02-07-2019 09:55AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

And what has that for to do with Intel wanting to expand on their own land now, away from him and his farm? That battle is over, it's time to move on.

People are fully entitled to object to developments on their neighbours property if they feel it affects them.
Reid is doing just that. It is his right in the same way it is mine and yours.
If the planners feel that the objection is not justified then fine, it doesn't affect the development. If his objection is justified then Intel and their planning team should have prepared their plans more appropriately.

This idea that Intel or any large company should have the right to develop in any way they want is ridiculous. It is not good for society to be under constant threat from a large employer who will up sticks and leave because they don't get exactly what they want.

If Reid's objection threatens Intel's long term plans in Ireland then that says more about Intel than Reid or his objection. People just don't want to see the wood for the trees sometimes!

Boggles · 02-07-2019 09:58AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So your saying that his complaint is vexatious?

If anyone is entitled to a vexatious complaint, it's certainly him. God knows what damage they have done to him.

But he doesn't think it is vexatious, he thinks they will come for his land again.

He is probably right.

_Brian · 02-07-2019 10:01AM

Boggles wrote: »

If anyone is entitled to a vexatious complaint, it's certainly him. God knows what damage they have done to him.

But he doesn't think it is vexatious, he thinks they will come for his land again.

He is probably right.

I think we’d all have a bit of sopite in us after his treatment.

Hasn’t he objected to loads of intel development and not just this one ?

Boggles · 02-07-2019 10:09AM

_Brian wrote: »

I think we’d all have a bit of sopite in us after his treatment.

Hasn’t he objected to loads of intel development and not just this one ?

I certainly would.

But he says he isn't doing it out of spite, he has a genuine fear they will come again for his land.

Perfectly reasonable assumption IMO.

MrMusician18 · 02-07-2019 10:26AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

People are fully entitled to object to developments on their neighbours property if they feel it affects them.
Reid is doing just that. It is his right in the same way it is mine and yours.
If the planners feel that the objection is not justified then fine, it doesn't affect the development. If his objection is justified then Intel and their planning team should have prepared their plans more appropriately.

This idea that Intel or any large company should have the right to develop in any way they want is ridiculous. It is not good for society to be under constant threat from a large employer who will up sticks and leave because they don't get exactly what they want.

If Reid's objection threatens Intel's long term plans in Ireland then that says more about Intel than Reid or his objection. People just don't want to see the wood for the trees sometimes!

Speaking in generalities,I'm not making the argument that anyone should be able to develop in any way they please but that objections are well founded and reasonable. Objecting in order to delay or frustrate a development is an abuse of process. That is true even if you have been wronged by the developer in the past.

Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds. I personally would like to see anyone found to be objecting on those grounds be made to fully pay for the costs incurred resulting from the delays. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like some former foe, not directly impacted, objecting to a house extension you might build?

end of the road · 02-07-2019 10:39AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No it isn't. The common good must be considered and win out.

As long as he is compensated fairly then there is no issue as far as I'm concerned. Id have no problem with my property being CPO'd

the common good does win out. in this case it was the common good of the citizens of the country as a whole and their property rights, at the expense of a private company and the IDA'S wants. the absolutely correct outcome. jobs are important but not at any cost and not at the expense of the rights of the citizen.

Boggles · 02-07-2019 10:43AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

.
Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds.

I agree, but where is your proof this guy is objecting on vexatious grounds, something you seem to be stating as fact.

Seth Brundle · 02-07-2019 10:44AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Speaking in generalities,I'm not making the argument that anyone should be able to develop in any way they please but that objections are well founded and reasonable. Objecting in order to delay or frustrate a development is an abuse of process. That is true even if you have been wronged by the developer in the past.

Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds. I personally would like to see anyone found to be objecting on those grounds be made to fully pay for the costs incurred resulting from the delays. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like some former foe, not directly impacted, objecting to a house extension you might build?

You're assuming that Reid is objecting purely to frustrate and delay for revenge reasons.
That's a big assumption. My understanding is that he has genuine concerns. Is an objection not reasonable on this basis?

satguy · 02-07-2019 10:50AM

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that held up the apple data center sleep at night ?

end of the road · 02-07-2019 10:51AM

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Intel are not trying to put this man off his land. That battle is over. This development has no impact on him or his farm.

So what is motivating him? Have a think about it.

There is almost certainly going to be home planning reform now in this country and the ability to object and appeal is gold to be further curtailed. The system is set up on a kind of honour system in that you shouldn't object unless you feel you have a valid objection. In fact it used to be free until we had a couple of cranks going around the country objecting to everything. The system is not meant to be used to settle scores, retribution or vengeance.

And there will be public support for these changes as a consequence of objections to the like of Apple and Intel. We will all lose as a result.

neither of those are something i would bank on.
even if there is public support for more restrictions on objections, that support may not be as much as you may think or would hope for. especially if such changes are on the basis of this case.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Speaking in generalities,I'm not making the argument that anyone should be able to develop in any way they please but that objections are well founded and reasonable. Objecting in order to delay or frustrate a development is an abuse of process. That is true even if you have been wronged by the developer in the past.

Everyone has the right to object but no one has the right to object on vexatious grounds. I personally would like to see anyone found to be objecting on those grounds be made to fully pay for the costs incurred resulting from the delays. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like some former foe, not directly impacted, objecting to a house extension you might build?

objections that are not valid are struck out. the system works.

Boggles · 02-07-2019 10:54AM

satguy wrote: »

How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

He couldn't for 6 years apparently.

Illegal land grabs would do that to a person I imagine.

But fúck him right?

Seth Brundle · 02-07-2019 10:54AM

satguy wrote: »

How many new jobs is this man holding up ?
How much Tax would 4 or 5 hundred workers pay ?
How many of our graduate sons and daughters would love to work there ?
How can guys like him and the ones that help up the apple data center sleep at night ?

He is not holding up any jobs.
He is participating in a process that exists to ensure appropriate development. Intel are not above the law in terms of the planning process.
Reid is doing absolutely nothing wrong!

Kildare farmer objects to €8bn Intel investment...

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