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Fire safety Levy

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  • 29-06-2019 12:36am
    #1
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭


    We have gone sale agreed and contracts were signed today. However the solicitor isn’t sending the contracts over to our solicitor until clarity on the levy on the cost of fire safety ( it has been fixed but management Comp are trying to redeem cost but if not a Levy be applied )
    They have had one estimate 2 years ago and saying it’s €15000 per apartment.

    Has anyone been in similar situation ?
    (FYI- we are a negative equity trade up mortgage. Making no money just need a family home now )


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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Never heard of this. It’s obviously a private civil levy the MC is trying to impose?


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    #3
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    Never heard of this. It’s obviously a private civil levy the MC is trying to impose?

    It’s a levy for the work on the apartments due to fire safety that builders neglected and Co Co signed off in the boom time. We are lucky to be an apartment fixed in the estate at the moment and certs to prove it but anyone buying the apartment could be liable to the levy.


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    #4
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    It’s a levy for the work on the apartments due to fire safety that builders neglected and Co Co signed off in the boom time. We are lucky to be an apartment fixed in the estate at the moment and certs to prove it but anyone buying the apartment could be liable to the levy.

    Councils don’t sign off on fire safety. Private sector Architects, Engineers or Surveyors signed it off, private sector.


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    #5
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    Councils don’t sign off on fire safety. Private sector Architects, Engineers or Surveyors signed it off, private sector.

    The apartments were signed off by Co co as over 15 years ago so many had to provided for the affordable housing scheme. All new developments had to provide a certain amount of houses to this scheme


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    #6
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    The apartments were signed off by Co co as over 15 years ago so many had to provided for the affordable housing scheme. All new developments had to provide a certain amount of houses to this scheme

    You still misunderstand certificates of compliance. They are provided by private sector professionals. In no way, shape or form are the blocks signed off by any county council in this country.

    The building control act is in place since 1990, Building Regulations since 1992, and since then we have had self certification.

    So even 15 years ago, your block would have been signed off by a private architect or similar before handing over to the council under the terms of the Part V social housing agreement.

    I know this having worked in private practice proving similar schemes and also on the building control regulatory side of things with the council.


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    #7
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    You still misunderstand certificates of compliance. They are provided by private sector professionals. In no way, shape or form are the blocks signed off by any county council in this country.

    The building control act is in place since 1990, Building Regulations since 1992, and since then we have had self certification.

    So even 15 years ago, your block would have been signed off by a private architect or similar before handing over to the council under the terms of the Part V social housing agreement.

    I know this having worked in private practice proving similar schemes and also on the building control regulatory side of things with the council.

    So who is liable for signed off blocks when they didn’t have correct fire safety and should pay the bill and not the owner who buy the property in good faith. I am ground floor so I cannot get the roof checked in a survey.


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    #8
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    So who is liable for signed off blocks when they didn’t have correct fire safety and should pay the bill and not the owner who buy the property in good faith. I am ground floor so I cannot get the roof checked in a survey.

    Basically, the developer who built your apartment block engaged the services of a Private Sector Architect, Engineer or Surveyor who should have inspected and signed off the work.

    The Fire Safety Cert for the Building is assuming the development was built in accordance with the drawings and documents lodged to Dublin Fire Brigade but based on this thread, the developer cut corners.

    What has a survey on the roof got to do with Fire Safety?
    Generally the roof does not support a floor or escape route so has lesser fire protection requirements than other structural members, such as floors, walls and compartments.


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    #9
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    What has a survey on the roof got to do with Fire Safety?
    Generally the roof does not support a floor or escape route so has lesser fire protection requirements than other structural members, such as floors, walls and compartments.

    Cause that’s where the issue was in the roofs of the block. They didn’t have fire sealant basically in the roof so of Fire happens upstairs it can carry through to the attached apartment


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    #10
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    Cause that’s where the issue was in the roofs of the block. They didn’t have fire sealant basically in the roof so of Fire happens upstairs it can carry through to the attached apartment

    Sounds like the top of the compartment walls were not fire stopped at the underside of the roof properly.

    There's a Diagram in Technical Guidance Document Part B that you can look at to give an idea on how it should be done. Its Diagram 13.

    No Surveyor would have had access to this area when acting on behalf of people buying individual units alright, they would be reliant on the Certificate of Compliance issued by the Private Sector Professional on behalf of the developer.


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    #11
    happyfriday74
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭happyfriday74


    Your solicitor will have to get a requisitions document from the estates management agent. This outlines the information on the estates Owners Management Company.

    Any expected levies should be outlined on this.

    Your purchaser is likely going to price chip you to the tune of the estimated levy.


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    #12
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    happyfriday74 wrote: »
    Your purchaser is likely going to price chip you to the tune of the estimated levy.

    Yea that’s what I am thinking. My husband doesn’t want us to however as we are in negative equity I have budgeted we can drop the price by €5000.


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    #13
    Fkall
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭Fkall


    I think you need to budget for the full cost of the levy - there is no reason the buyer would accept anything less.


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    #14
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    Fkall wrote: »
    I think you need to budget for the full cost of the levy - there is no reason the buyer would accept anything less.

    If I could I would. That’s our budget which is very tight as we are in negative equity and buying small house for our family. And if it’s not accepted then we put it back on the market. Nothing is set in stone on the levy or a time frame provided. All I know is our management company are fighting very hard so the people responsible pay.


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    #15
    Baby01032012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Baby01032012


    Did you not anticipate this being a problem?

    I’d say your own solicitor might be more than a little annoyed if you didn’t inform him. Not to mention the sales agent and buyers solicitor. You may have wasted their time. If you can’t take the hit and the sale falls through don’t be shocked to expect a bill from your solicitor for his time spent.

    What position is the sinking fund in? Obviously not strong enough to take a hit like this.


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    #16
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    Baby01032012 wrote: »
    Did you not anticipate this being a problem?

    I’d say your own solicitor might be more than a little annoyed if you didn’t inform him. Not to mention the sales agent and buyers solicitor. You may have wasted their time. If you can’t take the hit and the sale falls through don’t be shocked to expect a bill from your solicitor for his time spent.

    What position is the sinking fund in? Obviously not strong enough to take a hit like this.

    Well we only found out last year of this problem after the co co new for 5 years before and never told the management company.
    My solicitor estate agent and everyone knew.

    My post was to see was anyone else in this situation before.

    As I mentioned nothing is set in stone on the levy so it’s kinda hard to anticipate an amount on one estimate and the sinking fund is what paid to fix ours


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    #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    Well we only found out last year of this problem after the co co new for 5 years before and never told the management company.
    My solicitor estate agent and everyone knew.

    My post was to see was anyone else in this situation before.

    As I mentioned nothing is set in stone on the levy so it’s kinda hard to anticipate an amount on one estimate and the sinking fund is what paid to fix ours

    How did the County Council know before the Management Company??
    Something's not adding up here wit your stories.


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    #18
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    How did the County Council know before the Management Company??
    Something's not adding up here wit your stories.


    Cause there was a fire in one their properties that they own on the estate


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    #19
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    Cause there was a fire in one their properties that they own on the estate

    Still strange....
    If the fire exposed the problem of no compartmentation, then it obviously spread to other apartments?

    Then if the Fire Service notice this, they should issue a Fire Safety Notice for improvement works as they have done on many other buildings, especially in Dublin where DFB where very proactive.

    Was the Council apartment at top floor level?
    Did they vacate the units?
    In my experience, its the insurance investigation after the fire that exposes the short comings in the Fire Stopping, the Council don't investigate fires afterwards.


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    #20
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    Still strange....
    If the fire exposed the problem of no compartmentation, then it obviously spread to other apartments?

    Then if the Fire Service notice this, they should issue a Fire Safety Notice for improvement works as they have done on many other buildings, especially in Dublin where DFB where very proactive.

    Was the Council apartment at top floor level?
    Did they vacate the units?
    In my experience, its the insurance investigation after the fire that exposes the short comings in the Fire Stopping, the Council don't investigate fires afterwards.

    Yes this all happened but it was a council property nothing to do with the management company and after the fire they investigated the rest the properties and never informed the management company.
    It was 5 years later they found out.
    They are liable to inform the management company


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    #21
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Alli Babba wrote: »
    Yes this all happened but it was a council property nothing to do with the management company and after the fire they investigated the rest the properties and never informed the management company.
    It was 5 years later they found out.
    They are liable to inform the management company

    Doesn’t sound right.
    The council only own the apartment, common areas etc are still MC owned.

    Sounds like the MC are telling the residents lies.


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    #22
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    kceire wrote: »
    Doesn’t sound right.
    The council only own the apartment, common areas etc are still MC owned.

    Sounds like the MC are telling the residents lies.

    Nope. The county council own 60 properties in the estate under the old affordable housing and properties provided for county council housing.
    No lies from the MC just the county council


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    #23
    happyfriday74
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭happyfriday74


    You'll have to account for the levy being price chipped to the full value of the 15k. They may even look for more as the work value could increase when properly priced or inflation- building costs are getting higher.

    Best possible deal here is that the purchaser accepts you hold 15k in escrow account until the value of the fire works is quantified fully and paid for.

    If the works are not required you get the money back and even if they are you get the change if it comes in less than 15k.

    Hard to get the purchaser to accept this and they will likely just want a straight forward discount.


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    #24
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,355 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    OP
    The details of what you are saying really don't make sense. You appear to have mixed up some terms and who would know first. The insurance company and the management company would have been given a report on the fire before the co council.
    In very simple terms it does not matter what you can afford the new owner will not accept a €15k liability or even a €10k one. Why would they?


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    #25
    Alli Babba
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭Alli Babba


    We reduced the price to cover the levy and will move into my parents for awhile and now the solicitor is looking for extra €5k for vacating costs for when the works get done.
    We declined to that


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    #26
    happyfriday74
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭happyfriday74


    We reduced the price to cover the levy and will move into my parents for awhile and now the solicitor is looking for extra €5k for vacating costs for when the works get done.
    We declined to that

    Id expect you to reduce the cost to match the levy.

    5K relocation cost is just cheeky. Id have told them to XXXX off too. Fair play


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