Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Lackadaisical · 29-06-2019 04:14PM

The key to the long term success of the Irish agriculture sector is going to be about moving up that price chain and selling a premium product. I have never understood why Irish agriculture keeps chasing low price markets - things like producing bulk, unbranded powdered milk, or live exports to Egypt !?

At times it seems to be about producing volume rather than any strategy.

There'll always be pressure from cheaper suppliers, but you don't necessarily have to chase that either. There's a huge demand for high-quality, ethically produced, traceable product right on our door step and we are only scratching the surface of it.

murphaph · 29-06-2019 04:14PM

20silkcut wrote: »

I think it’s more the double standards that is the issue here. Traceability, protection of the environment place huge restrictive regulations on European farmers. Now there will be beef on the shelves in Europe that does not adhere to any such restriction. Basically the EU is saying yes we are fine with importing beef that has no traceability and is produced in countries that destroy rainforests and habitats to produce it. It’s a bit rich.
Really proves that all this environmental stuff is just virtue signaling posturing and that money and trade is all that matters at the back of it all.
A prime example of real politik.

Farm to fork carbon neutral what does that mean now??

You can already buy south American beef in the EU. It has to meet the same standards as EU produced beef.

20silkcut · 29-06-2019 04:30PM

murphaph wrote: »

You can already buy south American beef in the EU. It has to meet the same standards as EU produced beef.

Do you honestly think a developing country with myriad social political and economic issues is going to be bothered with highly technical beef traceability???

I’d say they’d eat the ear tags before they stick them on cattle over there.

There are massive issues with beef traceability in Brazil .

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/brazilian-beef-back-in-the-dock-as-meps-highlight-traceability-issues-36931430.html

I know this is off topic but in my opinion it has relevance to Brexit in light of its hasty conclusion and whitewashing of EU standards to put pressure on brexiteers. Which is of course welcome but not very edifying.

And frankly I think this will only sow seeds of dis-unity within the EU. Especially between rural and urban areas.

29-06-2019 05:23PM

20silkcut wrote: »

Do you honestly think a developing country with myriad social political and economic issues is going to be bothered with highly technical beef traceability???

I’d say they’d eat the ear tags before they stick them on cattle over there.

There are massive issues with beef traceability in Brazil .

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/brazilian-beef-back-in-the-dock-as-meps-highlight-traceability-issues-36931430.html

I know this is off topic but in my opinion it has relevance to Brexit in light of its hasty conclusion and whitewashing of EU standards to put pressure on brexiteers. Which is of course welcome but not very edifying.

And frankly I think this will only sow seeds of dis-unity within the EU. Especially between rural and urban areas.

This kind of makes a great target for Brexiteers, they see the Irish farmers being overruled by Germany (and others) who will benefit more from this deal than the farmers.

murphaph · 29-06-2019 05:23PM

20silkcut wrote: »

Do you honestly think a developing country with myriad social political and economic issues is going to be bothered with highly technical beef traceability???

I’d say they’d eat the ear tags before they stick them on cattle over there.

There are massive issues with beef traceability in Brazil .

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/brazilian-beef-back-in-the-dock-as-meps-highlight-traceability-issues-36931430.html

I know this is off topic but in my opinion it has relevance to Brexit in light of its hasty conclusion and whitewashing of EU standards to put pressure on brexiteers. Which is of course welcome but not very edifying.

And frankly I think this will only sow seeds of dis-unity within the EU. Especially between rural and urban areas.

If Romania and Bulgaria can manage it I don't see why Brazil should not. There are EU inspectors out in these countries inspecting and testing beef as it's produced.

You can't just look at one sector in isolation either. What about the improved ability of EU consumers (due to expanding markets) to actually buy EU produced food? A rising tide lifts all boats.

murphaph · 29-06-2019 05:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This kind of makes a great target for Brexiteers, they see the Irish farmers being overruled by Germany (and others) who will benefit more from this deal than the farmers.

The Irish government can weigh up the FTA and veto it if it is on balance damaging to the Irish economy. The fact is that beef is a small component of that economy. It should not prevent a deal that works for the vast majority of the economy.

20silkcut · 29-06-2019 06:03PM

murphaph wrote: »

If Romania and Bulgaria can manage it I don't see why Brazil should not. There are EU inspectors out in these countries inspecting and testing beef as it's produced.

You can't just look at one sector in isolation either. What about the improved ability of EU consumers (due to expanding markets) to actually buy EU produced food? A rising tide lifts all boats.

If you read the article I linked you will clearly see that those EU inspectors in Brazil are clearly stating that Brazilian beef does not meet EU traceability standards. Not even close to it.

All very well saying that going forward we can leverage mercosur countries to improve their standards but it makes an absolute nonsense of the current stringent traceability regimes in EU countries. There are farmers in this country who face the full rigour of the courts of law for issues relating to cattle identification and movements it is taken deadly serious.

Maybe they could relax the regulations here. Then we could compete with Brazilian farmers.

No this deal is very cynical and utterly political driven and drives a coach and four through EU regulations and standards.

Leroy42 · 29-06-2019 06:06PM

20silkcut wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

You can already buy south American beef in the EU. It has to meet the same standards as EU produced beef.

Do you honestly think a developing country with myriad social political and economic issues is going to be bothered with highly technical beef traceability???

I’d say they’d eat the ear tags before they stick them on cattle over there.

There are massive issues with beef traceability in Brazil .

https://amp.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/brazilian-beef-back-in-the-dock-as-meps-highlight-traceability-issues-36931430.html

I know this is off topic but in my opinion it has relevance to Brexit in light of its hasty conclusion and whitewashing of EU standards to put pressure on brexiteers. Which is of course welcome but not very edifying.

And frankly I think this will only sow seeds of dis-unity within the EU. Especially between rural and urban areas.

So is the proposed deal based on allowing below EU standard beef to be imported?

20silkcut · 29-06-2019 06:08PM

murphaph wrote: »

The Irish government can weigh up the FTA and veto it if it is on balance damaging to the Irish economy. The fact is that beef is a small component of that economy. It should not prevent a deal that works for the vast majority of the economy.

Yes but the fact that the EU is ignoring its own standards here is very very damaging I can’t re-iterate that enough.
It is the cornerstone of the CAP which makes up the bulk of the EU budget and a huge amount of EU legislative energy goes into this so it’s not just an obscure issue in an obscure industry.
It is very much a core issue.

Lackadaisical · 29-06-2019 06:16PM

Looks to be very controversial in France

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UarexN1YKG8

"Paris (AFP) - The trade liberalization agreement between the EU and the four Mercosur countries (Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Paraguay) announced Friday night is deemed "unacceptable" by French farmers, including by the farmer and new Macronist MP Jeremy Decerle."

https://www.nouvelobs.com/monde/20190629.AFP9465/accord-ue-mercosur-inacceptable-pour-les-agriculteurs-francais-meme-macronistes.html

I could see this becoming more than a bit politically uncomfortable for Macron.

Google around for UE- Mercosur and you'll get a sense of French reaction.

I wouldn't be surprised if you see significant protests over it.

Reports that Macron is threatening to veto it too
https://www.ouest-france.fr/politique/emmanuel-macron/emmanuel-macron-ne-signera-pas-le-pacte-commercial-ue-mercosur-si-le-bresil-quitte-l-accord-de-paris-6419995

I would have my doubts this will fly.

The issue with a UK-Mercosur deal is the UK will take what it's given. The EU doesn't need this deal as much as Mercosur does.

20silkcut · 29-06-2019 06:32PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So is the proposed deal based on allowing below EU standard beef to be imported?

It’s allowing 100,000 tonnes of beef to be imported from countries with very questionable traceability standards and highly questionable food safety standards. And extremely questionable environmental standards.

So yes it is far far below EU standards.

Capt'n Midnight · 29-06-2019 06:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This kind of makes a great target for Brexiteers, they see the Irish farmers being overruled by Germany (and others) who will benefit more from this deal than the farmers.

This means the UK can no longer use the "Germans need us to buy cars " card, because South America will take up the slack.

It's yet another trade deal the UK won't benefit from.

BTW
If you've ever read Fast Food Nation book there's a bit where the people working in abattoirs loved when the meat was for export to the EU instead of domestic consumption, because the EU had rules limiting how fast they could work. That was 20 years ago in the USA.

Spanish Eyes · 29-06-2019 06:57PM

What's the point of a border if food produce of dubious traceability can enter the EU legally, well when the deal is signed that is.

Am I missing something?

lawred2 · 29-06-2019 07:18PM

Maybe the expectation will be that to ship the beef here it will have to comply with EU regulations. So it might end up being only a subset of exporters from mercosur even bother trying to do so.

Lackadaisical · 29-06-2019 07:21PM

It depends on the details of the deal. I’ll have to have a read through whatever documents are available before I make uninformed comments.

fash · 29-06-2019 07:39PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This kind of makes a great target for Brexiteers, they see the Irish farmers being overruled by Germany (and others) who will benefit more from this deal than the farmers.

Considering the 48%, NI, Scotland and the average Brit who is going to be sold out at the first instant possible, you would wonder if they appreciate the irony at least.

An Ciarraioch · 29-06-2019 10:43PM

Olly Robbins quits:

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1145055712885846018

Johnson will instead get JRM, Barclay and Cox to craft his Brexit plan:

http://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1145077083930091521

ThePanjandrum · 29-06-2019 11:12PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Also the fact that a UK Court found that the leave campaign acted so illegally that if the result was actually binding, they would have been forced to call a re-run of the vote. The only reason they didn't force a re-run was because the result wasn't actually binding.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/brexit-referendum-corruptly-won-but-result-stands/

Jessica Simor, the rabid Remainer who had lost the case and James O'Brien are not reliable commentators in such cases, their whole outlook is biased by their bitterness.

Most of the claims made against the Brexit campaigners are tossed out by the courts, even the claim of Russian involvement which is so crucial to the Remainers argument has been dismissed by arch-Remainer Nick Clegg who has access to the records.

There is a difference between allegation and evidence.

Leroy42 · 30-06-2019 12:45AM

20silkcut wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

So is the proposed deal based on allowing below EU standard beef to be imported?

It’s allowing 100,000 tonnes of beef to be imported from countries with very questionable traceability standards and highly questionable food safety standards. And extremely questionable environmental standards.

So yes it is far far below EU standards.

But does it state that they have to meet no standards? Within those countries there are of course some very serious, and wealthy, companies/ producers. To offer them the chance to get access to 400m+ consumers would easily make them want to take up higher standards.

Of course not everyone will want/afford to but that makes policing the standards even easier.

J Mysterio · 30-06-2019 03:23AM

Dont recall seeing this at the time, but brilliant speech.

Recorded at the Pierhead on the 21st February 2018, Dáithí O’Ceallaigh (former Irish Ambassador in London) shares his sobering assessment of Brexit, from an Irish Perspective. This event was hosted by the Wales Governance Centre at Cardiff University.

Peregrinus · 30-06-2019 05:19AM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Jessica Simor, the rabid Remainer who had lost the case and James O'Brien are not reliable commentators in such cases, their whole outlook is biased by their bitterness.

Most of the claims made against the Brexit campaigners are tossed out by the courts, even the claim of Russian involvement which is so crucial to the Remainers argument has been dismissed by arch-Remainer Nick Clegg who has access to the records.

I think you mean ". . . the paid spokesman of Facebook Nick Clegg who has access to Facebook's records and so can confirm the extraordinary sums that Facebook received from the Leave campaign for advertising, but who doesn't have access to the Leave campaign's accounts and so has no idea where the Leave campaign got those sums, but arch-Brexiters like to try and create the impression that he does in a desperate attempt to try and create the impression that the Leave campaign has nothing to hide."

20silkcut · 30-06-2019 07:39AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But does it state that they have to meet no standards? Within those countries there are of course some very serious, and wealthy, companies/ producers. To offer them the chance to get access to 400m+ consumers would easily make them want to take up higher standards.

Of course not everyone will want/afford to but that makes policing the standards even easier.

Beef traceability took many years to reach the point where it is today in the EU.
It was not a case of the EU just decided one day they were going to have a beef traceability system.
It took decades of changes in farmer behavior, veterinary standard,administrative organization, departmental implementation and it is ongoing constantly being tweaked and improved and as I said earlier it is rigorously backed up by the legal system in this country and any breaches of it are taken very seriously and farmers and people involved in the system face very serious penalties up to and including imprisonment. And there are cases currently before the courts involving cattle movement and identification.
This deal makes a nonsense of the entire system.
Brazil is currently at a point we were at probably in the 1960’s maybe further back. They are not going to change overnight and certainly not for 100,000 tonnes.
Clearly the Eu have decided that selling cars is more important than food safety and the health of its citizens.
Will they take mercosur countries to task and jeopardize this trade deal at some future point if standards in these countries are not improving??

Enzokk · 30-06-2019 07:45AM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Jessica Simor, the rabid Remainer who had lost the case and James O'Brien are not reliable commentators in such cases, their whole outlook is biased by their bitterness.

Most of the claims made against the Brexit campaigners are tossed out by the courts, even the claim of Russian involvement which is so crucial to the Remainers argument has been dismissed by arch-Remainer Nick Clegg who has access to the records.

There is a difference between allegation and evidence.

As the clip explains the courts have either ruled that the cases wasn't in time or that the referendum isn't binding so they have no authority to rule on the case. But politicians are treating it as binding, even though the courts keep telling them it is not and should not be treated as such.

Here is a few links to show that.

Brexit: Vote Leave broke electoral law, says Electoral Commission

The referendum was not legally binding, merely "advisory," according to a Supreme Court judgement in December 2016, so it can't be ordered to be re-run by a court - any decision to have a fresh referendum would have to be made by the government and Parliament would have to pass a referendum act.

The culture secretary said the EU referendum was binding – it wasn’t

The culture secretary, Karen Bradley, was doing the rounds of breakfast television this morning. She spoke to BBC Breakfast and ITV’s Good Morning Britain about her new plans for online safety.

But the discussion inevitably veered towards Brexit, after Theresa May’s interview yesterday in which she apparently refused to say if she’d vote to leave the EU in the event of a new referendum.

Ms Bradley told BBC Breakfast:

“We are delivering on the will of the British people from the binding referendum we had in June 2016 and we are leaving the European Union.”

Later, she used similar language on Good Morning Britain: “What I’m saying is that the British people in a binding referendum last year voted to leave the European Union”.

As for the legality of Vote Leave, well seeing as they dropped their case against the electoral commission and paid the highest possible fine that could be levied against them, we can say for a fact that they broke electoral laws. As for criminal, well we will have to wait and see if anything happens with that.

Media statement: Vote Leave

Vote Leave has today (Friday 29 March 2019) dropped its appeal and related proceedings against the Electoral Commission.

An Electoral Commission spokesperson said:

"Vote Leave has today (Friday 29 March 2019) withdrawn its appeal and related proceedings against the Electoral Commission’s finding of multiple offences under electoral law, committed during the 2016 EU referendum campaign.

"Vote Leave was the designated lead campaigner for the leave outcome at the referendum. We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event. Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned.

"Vote Leave has now paid its £61,000 fine in full."

Enzokk · 30-06-2019 07:46AM

20silkcut wrote: »

Beef traceability took many years to reach the point where it is today in the EU.
It was not a case of the EU just decided one day they were going to have a beef traceability system.
It took decades of changes in farmer behavior, veterinary standard,administrative organization, departmental implementation and it is ongoing constantly being tweaked and improved and as I said earlier it is rigorously backed up by the legal system in this country and any breaches of it are taken very seriously and farmers and people involved in the system face very serious penalties up to and including imprisonment. And there are cases currently before the courts involving cattle movement and identification.
This deal makes a nonsense of the entire system.
Brazil is currently at a point we were at probably in the 1960’s maybe further back. They are not going to change overnight and certainly not for 100,000 tonnes.
Clearly the Eu have decided that selling cars is more important than the standard of beef.
Will they take mercosur countries to task and jeopardize this trade deal at some future point if standards in these countries are not improving??

I have a question, beef that is sold in the EU at the moment from outside the EU, does that have to conform to EU standards?

Valhallapt · 30-06-2019 08:14AM

If the Irish govt. was to hint that there would be animal checks brought in at the border immediately after a hard Brexit. Say one inspection post north of Dundalk, which would be woefully under capacity. Would this not put the fear of God into Farmers in NI, who are a big part of the DUP grass roots.

Could the increased threat of a hard border put pressure on the DUP to relax their principles?

I know some of the DUP dream of a hard border, but if that were to come to pass they’d lose massive support perhaps pushing SF to the biggest party in next election, perhaps that thought is less palitable than the backstop

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 08:20AM

Tony Connollys latest piece gets into the border in detail. It seems nobody knows what to plan for as nobody knows what will come in October so if the leave 31st hard planning happens nobvember 1st.

https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0628/1059105-brexit-deal-border/

20silkcut · 30-06-2019 08:30AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I have a question, beef that is sold in the EU at the moment from outside the EU, does that have to conform to EU standards?

Don’t want to divert this topic into discussing beef but

Yes beef imported to the EU is subjected to the same QC standards as EU beef.

But if anything is found or if someone suffers ill affects from consuming beef the EU beef can be traced right back to the individual farmer who produced it.

The imported beef can not.

Enzokk · 30-06-2019 09:05AM

20silkcut wrote: »

Don’t want to divert this topic into discussing beef but

Yes beef imported to the EU is subjected to the same QC standards as EU beef.

But if anything is found or if someone suffers ill affects from consuming beef the EU beef can be traced right back to the individual farmer who produced it.

The imported beef can not.

This is a divert, but I feel it ties into Brexit because of the supposed deal the UK can have with South American countries for cheap meat. With the EU deal you have to question either assumptions on the deal and a future deal for the UK.

I am trying to find out if you can trace imports as you would in the EU, but even if you cannot trace it to one farm you surely would be able to trace it to an importer and see where in the chain a problem came in, right? I mean if we there is already imports from South America for beef then there are already checks being made. The difference is this will now just be cheaper to sell in shops.

So the question then is, has there been a problem with beef imports from South America thus far in terms of quality?

Stop moaning ffs · 30-06-2019 09:15AM

Doesn’t most of the beef in McDonald’s in the states come from South America?
Thought I read that somehwere

20silkcut · 30-06-2019 09:34AM

Enzokk wrote: »

This is a divert, but I feel it ties into Brexit because of the supposed deal the UK can have with South American countries for cheap meat. With the EU deal you have to question either assumptions on the deal and a future deal for the UK.

I am trying to find out if you can trace imports as you would in the EU, but even if you cannot trace it to one farm you surely would be able to trace it to an importer and see where in the chain a problem came in, right? I mean if we there is already imports from South America for beef then there are already checks being made. The difference is this will now just be cheaper to sell in shops.

So the question then is, has there been a problem with beef imports from South America thus far in terms of quality?

Yes without getting into too much detail there are massive ongoing food safety concerns with Brazilian beef and the US and China have banned its import.

A quick google will tell ya all you need to know.

And yes it does tie into brexit.
This demonstrates that the EU is fully prepared to abandon its own standards in light of the brexit situation it is a very worrying development.
It is the throw under the bus moment.
We just did not predict it would be this bus.
And it may not be the last thing thrown under a bus.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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