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Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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Comments

  • #4652
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    So everyone pleads not guilty to murder do they?

    It depends on the legal advice they receive.


  • #4653
    Yurt2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    So everyone pleads not guilty to murder do they?

    I would love to see stats vs other jurisdictions that empower judges to take into account a guilty plea when sentencing for murder, but it would appear that in Ireland, very few people would plead guilty for the reasons outlined. There is no incentive to, brazen it out and hope that there was a procedural error.


  • #4654
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I would love to see stats vs other jurisdictions that empower judges to take into account a guilty plea when sentencing for murder, but it would appear that in Ireland, very few people would plead guilty for the reasons outlined. There is no incentive to, brazen it out and hope that there was a procedural error.

    Correct and it's the system that is wrong not the solicitor giving correct advice or a client heeding that advice.


  • #4655
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    tuxy wrote: »
    It depends on the legal advice they receive.

    But its standard advice though? So if its fairly standard why not plead guilty every time?


  • #4656
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    But its standard advice though? So if its fairly standard why not plead guilty every time?

    Because in Irish system there is no advantage to pleading guilty.


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  • #4657
    Suckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    tuxy wrote: »
    Correct and it's the system that is wrong not the solicitor giving correct advice or a client heeding that advice.


    Morally or Legally?


  • #4658
    LiamoSail
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,294 ✭✭✭LiamoSail


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    And this brings us back to the lack of incentive to plead guilty. I really think this should be reviewed.

    The incentive is that if you're guilty it's the right thing to do. It's saving the victims family from the ordeal of a trial, it's saving the victims memory from having every detail of their life combed over and widely reported on. It's the first step in reforming.

    I appreciate that legal advice is often different from what is the right thing to do, but in such a horrific case like this the parents, knowing their kids were guilty, should have made them confess everything and plead guilty. Those kids will never reform if they can't be honest now.

    Never mind your personal incentives, this is about doing what's right for the victim and her family.


  • #4659
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,441 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    What is this ****e about signing up to love a child unconditionally ? Firstly I dont remember ever signing anything never mind how to love my kids .
    But let me say this and I am not in the minority , I will always love my kids but that doesn't mean I support what they do if its wrong.
    Leave murder aside for now and just imagine one of my kids bullied another or harmed another or shunned another .I would make damn sure he or she knew I disapproved , I would still love them but let them know I hated the act .
    God forbid one of mine murdered a girl with the brutality with which poor Ana was killed there is no way on this wide earth that my son would not be told that I did not support his act . He would face that court and that judge and bloody well pay for what he did .
    Thankfully my kids were decent and good kids but they knew if they got in trouble with school or harmed another in any way my love would not wain but I would not support them and they would face my wrath too .


  • #4660
    Cryptopagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Cryptopagan


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Grand, you stand by your remark.

    It was a horrible thing to do after what the Kriegel family endured and after the hard work gardai put in to getting to the bottom of what happened, in some way anyhow .

    Well, tbf it is an insulting term and not a constructive thing to say, so I’ll retract that.

    But I maintain that there is nothing I know of that’s being reported that places any blame or wrongdoing on either boy’s parents, apart from somebody got emotional and shouted some things out in court, which obviously people shouldn’t do but is hardly worthy of some of the condemnation I’ve seen.

    Indeed it seems like the parents were totally cooperative with the investigation. Sure Boy B’s mother sat there during Garda interviews even when it must have been obvious the boy was talking himself into a hole.


  • #4661
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I would love to see stats vs other jurisdictions that empower judges to take into account a guilty plea when sentencing for murder, but it would appear that in Ireland, very few people would plead guilty for the reasons outlined. There is no incentive to, brazen it out and hope that there was a procedural error.

    The last thing we want to do is allow judges discretion in murder cases. The penalty would track down to the low level for manslaughter.


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  • #4662
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    The last thing we want to do is allow judges discretion in murder cases. The penalty would track down to the low level for manslaughter.

    That's not how it works. For a manslaughter charge there much be different evidence. A judge can't just sentence someone to a completely different crime to what they have been found guilty of.


  • #4663
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    tuxy wrote: »
    That's not how it works. For a manslaughter charge there much be different evidence. A judge can't just sentence someone to a completely different crime to what they have been found guilty of.

    That’s not what I said. Or meant say. I said the penalty for murder would track down to the kind of low level we now see for manslaughter. Maybe a year or two more.


  • #4664
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    That’s not what I said. I said the penalty for murder would track down to the kind of low level we now see for manslaughter. Maybe a year or two more.

    It would only happen if there were new guidelines for sentencing to allow it.
    Remember with murder it's the parole board that gets the decision not the judge.


  • #4665
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    tuxy wrote: »
    It would only happen if there were new guidelines for sentencing to allow it.

    Yeh. That’s what you are arguing for.


  • #4666
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Yeh. That’s what you are arguing for.

    Yes it is what I believe, I wouldn't have said it otherwise.


  • #4667
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    I would make damn sure he or she knew I disapproved , I would still love them but let them know I hated the act .


    There is no evidence to suggest that this has not happened in the case of A & B's parents.


  • #4668
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    tuxy wrote: »
    Yes it is what I believe, I wouldn't have said it otherwise.

    Well let me reiterate- if we remove mandatory sentencing the judges will give as little as they can get away with. Half of all manslaughter cases result in < 5 years.


  • #4669
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    Well let me reiterate- if we remove mandatory sentencing the judges will give as little as they can get away with. Half of all manslaughter cases result in < 5 years.

    But it's always up to the parole board not the judge when it comes to life sentences I never said this should change. A judge can't sentence someone to manslaughter and spare someone a life sentence when there is no evidence for it.
    The parole board taking a guilty plea into consideration would not change the mandatory life sentence for murder.


  • #4670
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,361 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    I am in no position to tell them what they should do. Only someone who had been in their position can make a call on it.

    But to use words like unconditional and doing their job as parents is a bit of a stretch. There is no obligation on a parent to stand by your children. If they take an innocent 16 year old girl to an abandoned house, beat the living out of her, sexually assault her and leave here there like she was worth nothing.

    Cynthia Owen came out and publicly denounced what her son did and said she wasn't standing by him. Boy A and Boy B couldn't even plead guilty and one father verbally abused the court.

    Was cynthia part of his life?


  • #4671
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    LiamoSail wrote: »
    The incentive is that if you're guilty it's the right thing to do. It's saving the victims family from the ordeal of a trial, it's saving the victims memory from having every detail of their life combed over and widely reported on. It's the first step in reforming.

    I appreciate that legal advice is often different from what is the right thing to do, but in such a horrific case like this the parents, knowing their kids were guilty, should have made them confess everything and plead guilty. Those kids will never reform if they can't be honest now.

    Never mind your personal incentives, this is about doing what's right for the victim and her family.

    There are incentives though. In the case of boy A & B the judge would have included admission of guilt as an possible mitigation for sentancing. As it is they were both found guilty and yet appear to be holding on to the lies both told to Gardai and given as evidence during the court case. This was detailed in one of the articles linked previously. I'll see if I can find it ...


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  • #4672
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 57,056 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Does anyone know when the sentencing date is as I can’t seem to find it?
    Must be very soon.


  • #4673
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,980 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Does anyone know when the sentencing date is as I can’t seem to find it?
    Must be very soon.

    July 15th


  • #4674
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    There is no evidence to suggest that this has not happened in the case of A & B's parents.

    When boy bs father jumped up in court and shouted that he was an “innocent boy” I’m pretty certain that that is evidence that he’s never told him that he disapproves of him.


  • #4675
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,441 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    splinter65 wrote: »
    When boy bs father jumped up in court and shouted that he was an “innocent boy” I’m pretty certain that that is evidence that he’s never told him that he disapproves of him.

    No , and his declaration in court that his son was not capable of murder .


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/boy-b-not-capable-of-killing-ana-kri%25C3%25A9gel-father-tells-court-1.3914460%3fmode=amp

    On Tuesday morning, the court heard from one of the final witnesses in the case, the father of Boy B. He told the trial his son was “not capable” of killing the 14-year-old girl.


  • #4676
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    splinter65 wrote: »
    When boy bs father jumped up in court and shouted that he was an “innocent boy” I’m pretty certain that that is evidence that he’s never told him that he disapproves of him.


    The only thing that is evidence of is that the father thinks his son is innocent of murder.


  • #4677
    gozunda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,992 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    The journal.ie did a podcast of the case. In it they talk about boy A's phone and accessing
    violent porn etc and the fact that he kept a second phone for this - one that was specially used for that purpose. Made me think again on that the idea that boy B had a similar arrangement tbh ...

    https://www.thejournal.ie/the-explainer-podcast-ana-kriegel-trial-4690679-Jun2019/


  • #4678
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 7,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    Cryptopagan wrote: »
    Well, tbf it is an insulting term and not a constructive thing to say, so I’ll retract that.

    But I maintain that there is nothing I know of that’s being reported that places any blame or wrongdoing on either boy’s parents, apart from somebody got emotional and shouted some things out in court, which obviously people shouldn’t do but is hardly worthy of some of the condemnation I’ve seen.

    Indeed it seems like the parents were totally cooperative with the investigation. Sure Boy B’s mother sat there during Garda interviews even when it must have been obvious the boy was talking himself into a hole.

    Yet Ana's parents still don't know the truth of what happened. Only what the police managed to piece together. The Gardai say Boy B changed his story many times and only when confronted with what they discovered.


  • #4679
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,441 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/parents-of-anastasia-kriegel-thank-community-for-support-933781.html

    Anas lovely parents have planted a tree in her memory .


  • #4680
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The only thing that is evidence of is that the father thinks his son is innocent of murder.

    No it’s evidence that :
    1. despite all boy bs proven and admitted lie after lie after lie in a most grave and horrific set of circumstances
    and
    2. even after he admitted that he watched a girl who subsequently died being attacked brutally but didn’t raise the alarm when he could have saved her life.
    3. He displayed at the very least criminal cowardice and an inability to tell the truth.
    Boy b continues to have the full approval of his father.


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  • #4681
    SirChenjin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,111 ✭✭✭SirChenjin


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/parents-of-anastasia-kriegel-thank-community-for-support-933781.html

    Anas lovely parents have planted a tree in her memory .

    Yes, I saw that.

    Cannot even begin to imagine their anguish at the loss of their beautiful and dearly loved child.

    RIP Ana.


This discussion has been closed.
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