Demise of the Irish Derby

theaceofspies · 27-06-2019 7:14pm #1

It doesn't get much lower for Irish racing now than today.

It won't effect Coolmore Inc. too much in the pocket but sad to see the demise of this once great race.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/punters-pal-magnier-insists-on-five-in-irish-derby-to-benefit-each-way-bettors/387788

Coolmore have more or less admitted public ownership of the Derby with such as statement as "The boss decided that for the sake of the race we would also declare Il Paradiso so that there would be eight runners in the race and each-way betting".
And almost simultaneoulsy we have the HRI boss/supremo refusing to say what will be satisfactory crowd for Derby day for a 'State of the Art' new stadium because there is a local GAA match up the road!

How exactly do these people expect to attract new blood into racing.
The race has become a farce.

In fairness to Jim Bolger he has entered Guaranteed who is not without a chance on his early 2yo form.

jkbkhhho7t · 27-06-2019 7:33pm

No French or English horses alive?

IAMAMORON · 27-06-2019 8:18pm

The Brits and the French have never really supported it. In saying that only Coolmore send horses to the French Derby and they are usually not their best hopes for the season.

A bigger issue has to be the Derby trip, how many 12 furlong European Group 1's are there ? Epsom and Curragh Derby's , the King George, and the Arc. All the other big race are over 10f.

The best seem to skip the Irish Derby and go for the Eclipse at Sandown and the Juddmonte at York. They appear to be the races to be winning. The German Preis Von Wuppertal or whatever it is called doesn't count.

WicklowBrave · 27-06-2019 9:28pm

The race is very poor. This flat season on the whole has been quite hard to get into. I say that as someone who loves the flat. Royal Ascot was shocking like and I genuinely haven’t watched a single horse race since RA. I have no interest in the Pretty Polly tomorrow. I can’t remember that happening before.

tayto lover · 27-06-2019 9:32pm

Racing has been ruined for a long time now.
Some trainers with 6/7 horses in a valuable race and another with 5 have made sure of that. The punter has no chance.

WicklowBrave · 27-06-2019 9:41pm

The Derby itself was an exciting race but if you scratch beneath the surface, Coolmore just have a complete stranglehold of the market of middle distance colts. They can produce umpteen 115 rated 12f colts and throw 6 in a race but they aren’t producing Sea The Stars-esque colts that capture the imagination at all. It’s a pity.

The Tetrarch · 27-06-2019 9:42pm

The Irish Derby "problem" is just the tip of the iceberg.
Irish flat racing and jumps racing are dominated by a few owners and trainers.
They can put half a dozen horses into any race that are a class above the opposition.
The opposition (and the fans) are not turning up to the races.

In the Irish Derby 5 of the 8 runners are trained by A P O'Brien.
The Railway Stakes, Group 2, the other important race on the Saturday card, has 6 of 10 runners trained by A P O'Brien.
On Friday, the Pretty Polly Stakes, Group 1, has 3 of the field of 7 trained by A P O'Brien.

Although I have a season ticket I am staying at home.

tryfix · 28-06-2019 1:45am

WicklowBrave wrote: »

The Derby itself was an exciting race but if you scratch beneath the surface, Coolmore just have a complete stranglehold of the market of middle distance colts. They can produce umpteen 115 rated 12f colts and throw 6 in a race but they aren’t producing Sea The Stars-esque colts that capture the imagination at all. It’s a pity.

A Handicap can be an exciting race.

Without Coolmore's strong support of the Irish Derby it would be reduced to a G1 in name only. At least they'll send their best 12f 3yo colts there to put the G1 quality into the race. Last year's winner Latrobe is an example of the not quite G1 class horses that would be regularly winning the Irish Derby if it was left up to a large field of non Ballydoyle horses to run in it.

The great days of the Irish Derby existed when the Curragh showdown decided whether Epsom or Chantilly 12f form was superior. That decision making status ended in 2005 when Hurricane Run became the last French Derby runner to win the Irish Derby. Hurricane Run was the last proper 12f runner to contest both the Irish and French Derbies, he finished 2nd to Shamardal over the newly shortened 10 1/2 f Chantilly trip. By 2006 we had seen the last French trained 3yo Colt to win the Arc.

The 3yo Colts 12f pattern is fairly funcked, there's now a huge amount of alternative international targets for middle-distance colts and stamina has become a dirty word so every top 12f 3yo colt now has to go fluting about trying to win a big 10f race to prove their speed for stud.

People might as well be trying to turn back the tide as trying to revive the Irish Derby by bemoaning the only crew that are keeping it alive as a worthy top class race.

supremenovice · 28-06-2019 8:11am

I remember going to Derby day back in the 90s when Commander in chief won. We went to the infield section. It was a real carnival atmosphere there with amusement rides etc. I was only young but it seemed the place was packed and the weather was scorching. That infield section should be brought back, maybe €40 family ticket and bring your own picnic and the like.

IAMAMORON · 28-06-2019 9:03am

It is a smashing day today, I am going to the Curragh for sure.

longshotvalue · 28-06-2019 9:44am

We have 3 of the horses that fought out the finish of the Epson Derby, what mroe does anyone want. Still a very interesting race. Whoever traines them matters little All of AOB's horses will be trying.

The pretty polly features a clash of one of the best 10furlongs filles from last year and possibly the best 3yo.

PhuckHugh22 · 28-06-2019 10:21am

aidankkk wrote: »

We have 3 of the horses that fought out the finish of the Epson Derby, what mroe does anyone want. Still a very interesting race. Whoever traines them matters little All of AOB's horses will be trying.

The pretty polly features a clash of one of the best 10furlongs filles from last year and possibly the best 3yo.

While i agree with you for the most part. That is not always the case. They regularly use pace makers to ensure they run the race on their terms.

But you pretty much know that and who the horses are prior to the event so you would only have yourself to blame if you bet one of the obvious sacrificial lambs.

longshotvalue · 28-06-2019 10:34am

PhuckHugh22 wrote: »

While i agree with you for the most part. That is not always the case. They regularly use pace makers to ensure they run the race on their terms.

But you pretty much know that and who the horses are prior to the event so you would only have yourself to blame if you bet one of the obvious sacrificial lambs.

Possibly but id be an even worse punter if it wernt for some of those well bred 50/1 shots.

Andrew00 · 28-06-2019 5:50pm

Brutal attendance for tonight at 3,661.

Don't care what any of you say who try and justify that, it's shocking

The Tetrarch · 28-06-2019 6:16pm

15:45 Curragh Cup 1m 6f
all ten runners taken out of stalls and reloaded several minutes later due to fire alarm in main stand

At the end of the results in the Racing Post
2019: 326,802.00 - 2018: 454,179.00
Is that Tote turnover or Bookies?

IAMAMORON · 28-06-2019 7:11pm

That fire alarm went off more than once, thankfully a false alarm. They had to evacuate the stand and the 2nd race was delayed by a good 20 minutes. The alarm went off a few times again later, false alarm again. But there was a fair amount of consternation.

They will have their work cut out tomorrow if they have the same problem.

theaceofspies · 28-06-2019 7:32pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That fire alarm went off more than once, thankfully a false alarm. They had to evacuate the stand and the 2nd race was delayed by a good 20 minutes. The alarm went off a few times again later, false alarm again. But there was a fair amount of consternation.

They will have their work cut out tomorrow if they have the same problem.

The key difference between Irish and UK racing is that the HRI don't even treat their paying punters with contempt - oh no - they just plain ignore them. A few chickens coming home to roost now.
Racing is a much better experience in the UK. At least you feel that the authorities there acknowledge when you pay in the gate that you are entitled to something.

Richard Hillman · 28-06-2019 7:43pm

Galileo is 21 years old now. I'm sure all those fast rides and fast mares will catch up with him eventually. Everything changes when he finally goes to the Farm.

The Coolmore stranglehold is just en era, it won't last forever.

Darc19 · 28-06-2019 7:56pm

I'd agree with a lot of the sentiments here. I used never miss a derby. I remember the traffic jam through Newbridge, the infield area and a great day out.

There were full busses and trains from Dublin elsewhere. 30,000+ was a regular attendance.

I was a season ticket holder in the curragh for several years. But it gradually started to lack atmosphere, no excitement, no showmanship in any area.

Then they move it to a Saturday and add a Thursday?

From what I see it's very much those with an actual interest in horses that it is targeted to - that might change with the new setup, but I'm not sure.

I'll be surprised if attendance exceeds 15,000 tomorrow.

Bring it back to Sunday, bring back the carnival atmosphere.

Morgans · 28-06-2019 8:00pm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Galileo is 21 years old now. I'm sure all those fast rides and fast mares will catch up with him eventually. Everything changes when he finally goes to the Farm.

The Coolmore stranglehold is just en era, it won't last forever.

Sadlers Wells went to stud in 1985. A 35 year old "era". A house of cards about to collapse in on itself.

Not sure who would be most likely to have the next supersire other than Coolmore personally.

The Tetrarch · 28-06-2019 8:02pm

Darc19 wrote: »

Bring it back to Sunday, bring back the carnival atmosphere.

One year when it was the Budweiser Derby the ground was littered with crushed beer cans, thousands of them.
Was there free beer, or is nostalgia getting the better of me?
Bring backed the locked crowds, the traffic jams, and the English domination. Happy days.

IAMAMORON · 28-06-2019 8:02pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

The key difference between Irish and UK racing is that the HRI don't even treat their paying punters with contempt - oh no - they just plain ignore them. A few chickens coming home to roost now.
Racing is a much better experience in the UK. At least you feel that the authorities there acknowledge when you pay in the gate that you are entitled to something.

I travel over regular enough, I prefer to avoid the bigger meetings now. Although I love the Ebor meeting at York.

The biggest issue in Ireland is getting to and from the track. Today is a case in point, why can't they open up the Curragh train station and have a direct train?
Furthermore if you want to get the bus from the Red Cow you can't pay the driver, you have to pay online, 72 hours in advance.

I heard the William Hill radio guys bitching about Newbury earlier this week. I was astonished, Newbury is a sinch to get to, the train drops you behind the stands, you literally spill off the London train and your on track.

If the Curragh worked this out they would get a lot more people on track. But the current system of having to get a shuttle from Kildare is rubbish. It adds an hour onto your travel time, no one wants that.

From a punters point of view the on track bookies need to get with the high streets and start offering BOG. I only use them now as a novelty, why would I if I can get BOG on my phone?

Darc19 · 28-06-2019 8:14pm

The Tetrarch wrote: »

One year when it was the Budweiser Derby the ground was littered with crushed beer cans, thousands of them.
Was there free beer, or is nostalgia getting the better of me?
Bring backed the locked crowds, the traffic jams, and the English domination. Happy days.

It was cheap beer. Bud was £1 a can, anything else was £2+. It was also sold in about a dozen "pop-up" stalls.

tryfix · 28-06-2019 8:29pm

Andrew00 wrote: »

Brutal attendance for tonight at 3,661.

Don't care what any of you say who try and justify that, it's shocking

Why would be the question and truthfully there's something other than the quality of the racing or Ballydoyle's possible domination involved. Ballydoyle are quite beatable at the Curragh as the record today and on many days attests.

A Friday afternoon meeting for a Gp1 and Gp2 race seems to be a waste of resources. Who gives a flying feck about the Curragh on Thursday and Friday?

The Irish Derby was a Sunday afternoon race and then they made it a 5.20 on Saturday race. Who imagined that holding a race at that hour of a Saturday was going to be good for it. The prime of the racing day is done then and the Derby becomes a left over.

Such bad placement management is surely a sign that the Curragh's attendance problems stem from poor event management and promotion from the powers that be.

CheltenhamJ · 28-06-2019 10:37pm

More importantly, who wins the race

Motivator · 28-06-2019 10:44pm

I was at the Curragh 24 years running for Derby weekend but I didn’t go last year and I won’t go again. Going racing should be fun but the joy is long gone from flat racing and especially the Curragh. It hasn’t been an enjoyable place to go racing for a number of years.

Francie Barrett · 29-06-2019 7:43am

For me Madhmoon wins it, provided the Ballydoyle second string don't decide to try and run interference.

The White Wolf · 29-06-2019 12:03pm

Andrew00 wrote: »

Brutal attendance for tonight at 3,661.

Don't care what any of you say who try and justify that, it's shocking

Derby day is an anomaly in that it attracts the casuals en masse. I was there last year on Derby Day, when it was ill equipped to handle such an event due to the amount of work going on, and it was jammed.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't the same case today. I was there a couple of weeks ago and the new facilities are impressive.

Mind you that's probably the one and only time I'll be going on Derby day due to the amount of knobs it attracts.

The Tetrarch · 29-06-2019 12:36pm

Punters' pal Magnier insists on five in Irish Derby to benefit each-way bettors
https://www.racingpost.com/news/latest/punters-pal-magnier-insists-on-five-in-irish-derby-to-benefit-each-way-bettors/387788?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=RP%20-%20News&utm_content=AOB&utm_term=Null

Mt Brilliant seeking a Famous Irish Derby victory with transatlantic broodmare
Il Paradiso was bred by the Kentucky-based stud
https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-latest/mt-brilliant-seeking-a-famous-irish-derby-victory-with-transatlantic-broodmare/387855

IAMAMORON · 29-06-2019 12:48pm

I see Ryan Moore has been chosen to partner Anthony Van Dyck in the Derby.

I quite enjoy blowing my money on Group 1's. So I am speaking from the bottom of my wallet here.

Just thought I might note that I think Ryan Moore is the most overrated piece of crap racing has ever seen, of all time. For example he has had 17 Group 1 rides for Coolmore in 2019. He has won three times, Hermosa ( penalty kick in fairness) and Circus Maximus ( table biting) . Magical beat nothing it seems.

So for everyone looking up the Epsom form today and thinking " oh Anthony Van Dyck stayed on really well at Epsom and won fair and square" please don't forget the fact that Seamie Heffernan is a savage jockey and that today's jockey Ryan Moore is a great big pile of shight.

Just saying

I will save you having to look this up

2000 - Ten Sovereigns - unplaced favourite
1000 - Just Wonderful - unplaced
Lockinge - Brivado - unplaced
Irish 2000 - Magna Grecia - unplaced favourite
Oaks - Pink Dogwood - 2nd
Derby - La Dragonet - unplaced -
Queen Anne - Le Brivado - Unplaced
Prince of Wales - Magical 2nd
Gold Cup - Falg of Honor - unplaced
Commonwealth - Ten Soverigns - unplaced
Coronation - Hermosa - soundly beaten #
Pretty Polly - Pink Dogwood - Beaten

I might have forgotten some. I am not writing any more. It AVD wins today at 6/5 he will have beaten the field and his rider, believe.

tryfix · 29-06-2019 2:20pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I see Ryan Moore has been chosen to partner Anthony Van Dyck in the Derby.

I quite enjoy blowing my money on Group 1's. So I am speaking from the bottom of my wallet here.

Just thought I might note that I think Ryan Moore is the most overrated piece of crap racing has ever seen, of all time. For example he has had 17 Group 1 rides for Coolmore in 2019. He has won three times, Hermosa ( penalty kick in fairness) and Magna Grecia ( table biting) . Magical beat nothing it seems.

So for everyone looking up the Epsom form today and thinking " oh Anthony Van Dyck stayed on really well at Epsom and won fair and square" please don't forget the fact that Seamie Heffernan is a savage jockey and that today's jockey Ryan Moore is a great big pile of shight.

Just saying

I will save you having to look this up

2000 - Ten Sovereigns - unplaced favourite
1000 - Just Wonderful - unplaced
Lockinge - Brivado - unplaced
Irish 2000 - Magna Grecia - unplaced favourite
Oaks - Pink Dogwood - 2nd
Derby - La Dragonet - unplaced -
Queen Anne - Le Brivado - Unplaced
Prince of Wales - Magical 2nd
Gold Cup - Falg of Honor - unplaced
Commonwealth - Ten Soverigns - unplaced
Coronation - Hermosa - soundly beaten #
Pretty Polly - Pink Dogwood - Beaten

I might have forgotten some. I am not writing any more. It AVD wins today at 6/5 he will have beaten the field and his rider, believe.

Don't think Ryan won on Magna Grecia, so maybe you're down to two but he did win on Cirrus Maximus so back up to 3.

I genuinely wince when I see him on a horse that I want to back.

AVD has the right package of class and form for the Derby.

Madhmoon doesn't convince me over 12f and I'd love Broome to win but he's got to improve.

IAMAMORON · 29-06-2019 2:32pm

tryfix wrote: »

Don't think Ryan won on Magna Grecia, so maybe you're down to two but he did win on Circus Maximus so back up to 3.

I genuinely wince when I see him on a horse that I want to back.

AVD has the right package of class and form for the Derby.

Madhmoon doesn't convince me over 12f and I'd love Broome to win but he's got to improve.

Your bang on, I need to go back to Latin class.. I mixed them up. Circus Maximus won the St James's. He got beaten on Magna Grecia in the Irish 2000.

IAMAMORON · 29-06-2019 4:24pm

Another peach from Moore right there. What more can I say......

The White Wolf · 29-06-2019 4:28pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Another peach from Moore right there. What more can I say......

Moore seems to have no balls lately. Constantly content to look at the arse of other horses.

Francie Barrett · 29-06-2019 4:29pm

An absolute joke of a race.

CH3OH · 29-06-2019 4:33pm

I would love to know what was the plan before the race.

Doesn't really matter as they are taking the money home

The Tetrarch · 29-06-2019 4:37pm

At least Aidan O'Brien had the 1st, 2nd, 3rd :rolleyes: and the 6th and 7th.

The Tetrarch · 29-06-2019 4:39pm

What odds the stewards calling in the trainer and asking him to account for the turnaround in form?

Andrew00 · 29-06-2019 4:39pm

U can see padraig beggy didn't want his mount winning that. Farce of a race

BumperD · 29-06-2019 4:42pm

In fairness Beggy is world class ....

tayto lover · 29-06-2019 4:42pm

Are the punters being conned?

BorneTobyWilde · 29-06-2019 4:44pm

Looked like such a fix to stop Madhmoon. The group of O'Brien horses never closed the gap, and Madhmoon fell for it hook line and sinker. He should have closed gap early himself.

flos1964 · 29-06-2019 4:45pm

No fan of Moore but you had to think that thing was going to come back to them.

Andrew00 · 29-06-2019 4:46pm

Don't give up madhmoon just yet lads

IAMAMORON · 29-06-2019 4:50pm

Andrew00 wrote: »

Don't give up madhmoon just yet lads

I don't know, I think he is beaten fair and square. He certainly had no excuses, maybe a bad ride from the jockey. If he had come second I would agree, but he is off my tracker now.

He has to go 10f's next time. I reckon he will turn out to be a really good group 2 winner. I don't think he is a group 1 horse.

BorneTobyWilde · 29-06-2019 4:53pm

Madhmoon was boxed in by 3 O'Brien horses, one in front, one to the side and one to the back. They kept him locked in until it was clear the winner was not to be caught.
Embarrassing.

Slattsy · 29-06-2019 4:53pm

Of course I backed Sovereign at Epsom. FML.

jkbkhhho7t · 29-06-2019 4:55pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Madhmoon was boxed in by 3 O'Brien horses, one in front, one to the side and one to the back. They kept him locked in until it was clear the winner was not to be caught.
Embarrassing.

Yeah never happened you spoofer

Peintre Celebre · 29-06-2019 4:55pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Madhmoon was boxed in by 3 O'Brien horses, one in front, one to the side and one to the back. They kept him locked in until it was clear the winner was not to be caught.
Embarrassing.

Do you think they let Sovereign win or something?

BorneTobyWilde · 29-06-2019 5:03pm

jkbkhhho7t wrote: »

Yeah never happened you spoofer

Madhmoon was on rail, Van Dyck ahead of him,Broome to the side and Ii Paradiso right behind him. He was kept there and they just kept a steady pace and let Sovereign get into a uncatchable lead.
Madhmoon only broke free of the closed triangle when Van Dyck had to commit to make it look like he was at least trying to catch Sovereign.

Same owners, same trainer. They did not care which one won, their only concern was to stop Madhmoon and they did.

BorneTobyWilde · 29-06-2019 5:06pm

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Do you think they let Sovereign win or something?

I think it did not matter which O Brien horse won as the same owners owned them all. They had a plan, keep Madhmoon closed in, and let an O Brien horse open a huge lead and try make all.

Demise of the Irish Derby

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