Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

VinLieger · 26-06-2019 06:06PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

It's all about the blame game now.

I would rather Leo and Coveney never said they had no plans on putting up border infastructure.

Problem is the media and opposition would be doing nothing but hounding them to spell out WHEN and WHAT infastructure would go up.

The opposition have been fully briefed and are on board and agree with the brexit strategy. They know any visible internal disagreement will play right into the UKs hands, exactly like the public ****show the UK are displaying has played right into the EUs hands.

BluePlanet · 26-06-2019 07:04PM

serfboard wrote: »

I bet they'd put up a Border infrastructure fairly sharpish in response to articles like that ...

I would add a follow-up story, including a grainy photo of a bus of Roma gypsies disembarking, somewhere north of the border.

Capt'n Midnight · 26-06-2019 08:30PM

lawred2 wrote: »

It's a good read. And I've read pretty much the same rebuttal of that same fantasy multiple times.

Pity noone cares what some 'patronising elitist'* boffin in the FT has to offer..

You can't use article 24 unless the negotiations are nearly complete.
- the UK is tearing up the 595 page Withdrawal Agreement and not yielding on any Red Lines, don't expect negotiations to start anytime soon.

both sides have to agree
- why would the EU agree ?

besides it can be challenged by any WTO member
- like tiny countries like Moldova or "old friends" like New Zealand never mind places like India or China angling for visas

And of course Article 24 doesn't cover services which is the mainstay of the UK economy.

Frank Bullitt · 26-06-2019 08:36PM

https://twitter.com/grahamlithgow/status/1143895033738907649

I will look around for the full thing, but this is great.

Frank Bullitt · 26-06-2019 08:46PM

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/mark-francois-on-sky-news-1-6128141

And I have found it...enjoy.

Bit cynical · 26-06-2019 08:47PM

serfboard wrote: »

Since the British do nothing but lie over Brexit and the border specifically, perhaps we should come up with some lies of our own?

Cue a Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph/Ranting Tory Rag headline: "Flood of immigrants expected at the border"

'Irish Government sources have said that in the event of a no-deal Brexit, with no border infrastructure on the British side, they simply will be not able to control the expected deluge of Eastern European immigrants expected to pour into the UK through its the border with the Republic. Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary has stated that they are seeing "unprecedented" demand for flights from Romania and Bulgaria to Ireland from October 31st (Brexit day) onwards. "We are really surprised at the number of forward bookings that we are getting on flights from various Eastern European countries to Dublin, and we are going to double our flights, particularly from Romania and Bulgaria to Dublin from November."

From Dublin, it is only a two-hour train or bus journey to Belfast, and with no border posts in place, there will be nothing to stop Eastern European immigrants entering the UK. The Home Office has proposed having immigration checks at ports on the UK mainland, but the DUP are believed to have ruled that out insisting that it will mean that Northern Ireland will be treated differently from the rest of the UK.'

I bet they'd put up a Border infrastructure fairly sharpish in response to articles like that ...

I would expect however that nationals of most EU member states will still be able to get visitors visas for the UK after Brexit so it will be easier for them to just fly to London; they just won't have the automatic right to work. It will be more advantagious to them to go to Germany or Ireland or wherever for work.

Shelga · 26-06-2019 08:48PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/grahamlithgow/status/1143895033738907649

I will look around for the full thing, but this is great.

Mark Francois makes me cringe at a level I never thought possible. He has not got the slightest clue what he wants, what it means, how to get it, when it would be doable- just spouts on about ‘believing in Brexit’- and ‘a comprehensive free trade agreement’- ie all of the benefits, none of the responsibilities. The expert tells him that a comprehensive trade agreement can still mean tariffs- all of this would have to be worked out over years and years and years. It’s all so far beyond satire now it’s not funny. It’s really scary.

Headshot · 26-06-2019 08:49PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://twitter.com/grahamlithgow/status/1143895033738907649

I will look around for the full thing, but this is great.

Maybe it's just me but if Sky was still part of the Murdoch empire, we wouldnt see that on Sky News. It's a joy to see an expert setting the record straight on the lies peddled by Brexiters

Sky News has really turned the corner

Joe_ Public · 26-06-2019 08:54PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You can't use article 24 unless the negotiations are nearly complete.
- the UK is tearing up the 595 page Withdrawal Agreement and not yielding on any Red Lines, don't expect negotiations to start anytime soon.

both sides have to agree
- why would the EU agree ?

besides it can be challenged by any WTO member
- like tiny countries like Moldova or "old friends" like New Zealand never mind places like India or China angling for visas

And of course Article 24 doesn't cover services which is the mainstay of the UK economy.

It really is amazing that the brexiteers expect the EU to bend when faced with Johnson as PM when the latter shows less than zero understanding of a basic trade principle. Sending the likes of Mark Francois onto Sky to bicker the point with a trade expert just shows how farcical the whole thing is becoming.

As I understand it, what they are trying to argue (completely in vain) is that GATT Art 24 allows them to have an implementation period with zero tariffs if the EU agrees and they are working towards a permanent free trade deal. So lets just draw up a one page document setting out that aim, get both signatures and away they both go, trading tariff free both ways. Or so the theory goes.

Except, they can't do this. Because, as per WTO rules, for Art 24 to apply all other aspects of trade have to be settled first, including regulatory alignment standards, trade in services etc. Services trade is governed by GATS and the only way to get past this is by passing the WA. So, whatever way they spin it, it all comes back to WA. No WA, absolutely no way of trading tariff free under Art 24. If they bothered reading their own HOC literature or listening to the actual experts, they'd know that in 10 minutes.

kunst nugget · 26-06-2019 09:00PM

Gintonious wrote: »

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/mark-francois-on-sky-news-1-6128141

And I have found it...enjoy.

Honestly, the petulant ignorance on display by Mark Francois is kind of frightening.

Joe_ Public · 26-06-2019 09:01PM

Headshot wrote: »

Maybe it's just me but if Sky was still part of the Murdoch empire, we wouldnt see that on Sky News. It's a joy to see an expert setting the record straight on the lies peddled by Brexiters

Sky News has really turned the corner

From what I've seen it has really upped its game over the past couple of months, particularly in terms of having Irish and European voices on to give a different perspective on the awful spin spewing daily from Brexiteer sources. Adam Boulton is probably my favourite interviewer, very low key and restrained, but gets the job done with great efficiency.

Not sure I'd be handing out any gongs to broadcasters on the GATT24 issue, though. That was absolutely blown out of the water over here many months ago, just shows how far behind they are in the UK when that issue is only getting this kind of attention now.

Mr.Nice Guy · 26-06-2019 09:07PM

Don't know if it was mentioned but thought it was interesting that known Brexiter Julia Hartley-Brewer today tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1143893495956037632

So now we're firmly into the territory of Brexit > 'the precious Union.'

Also saw Gordon Brown warning that a Johnson premiership could mean the break-up of the UK. Meanwhile the English establishment seems tone-deaf about the wishes of the Scots as seen in this amazing discussion:

https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1143587403770322947

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

Professor Moriarty · 26-06-2019 09:12PM

Shelga wrote: »

Mark Francois makes me cringe at a level I never thought possible. He has not got the slightest clue what he wants, what it means, how to get it, when it would be doable- just spouts on about ‘believing in Brexit’- and ‘a comprehensive free trade agreement’- ie all of the benefits, none of the responsibilities. The expert tells him that a comprehensive trade agreement can still mean tariffs- all of this would have to be worked out over years and years and years. It’s all so far beyond satire now it’s not funny. It’s really scary.

Mark Francois speaking about the potential loss of 120,000 jobs in the event of No Deal tarriffs: "Yes but it would be our choice." Adam Bolton in response: You have the choice to blow your own head off but that doesn't mean you blow your head off. "

Professor Moriarty · 26-06-2019 09:18PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Don't know if it was mentioned but thought it was interesting that known Brexiter Julia Hartley-Brewer today tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1143893495956037632

So now we're firmly into the territory of Brexit > 'the precious Union.'

Also saw Gordon Brown warning that a Johnson premiership could mean the break-up of the UK. Meanwhile the English establishment seems tone-deaf about the wishes of the Scots as seen in this amazing discussion:

https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1143587403770322947

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

Yer man goes on to bolster his argument by saying that Scotland leaving the UK "would hurt the Queen." Oh well, that's Scottish independence put to bed so.

Headshot · 26-06-2019 09:21PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Don't know if it was mentioned but thought it was interesting that known Brexiter Julia Hartley-Brewer today tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1143893495956037632

So now we're firmly into the territory of Brexit > 'the precious Union.'

Also saw Gordon Brown warning that a Johnson premiership could mean the break-up of the UK. Meanwhile the English establishment seems tone-deaf about the wishes of the Scots as seen in this amazing discussion:

https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1143587403770322947

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

That is such good propaganda for the SNP. They should take that quote and put it on the side of a bus

Tell me how · 26-06-2019 09:24PM

This video is 6minutes long. I doubt anyone will watch to the end.

The remainer, made a hero out of the Brexiteer by being completely incapable of engaging in a discussion.

Reminded me of an obnoxious football 'expert' in the pub beside you when on holiday and just want to watch some game and have a drink who will just never shut the **** up.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/terry-christian-jeremy-vine-on-channel-5-1-6127630 https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/terry-christian-jeremy-vine-on-channel-5-1-6127630

reslfj · 26-06-2019 09:24PM

serfboard wrote: »

....

Cue a Daily Express/Mail/Telegraph/Ranting Tory Rag headline: "Flood of immigrants expected at the border"

...
" From Dublin, it is only a two-hour train or bus journey to Belfast, and with no border posts in place, there will be nothing to stop Eastern European immigrants entering the UK....

I bet they'd put up a Border infrastructure fairly sharpish in response to articles like that ...

The Ireland-NI border and the backstop has nothing to do with travelling people and everything to do with goods passing the border.

Irland and the UK has a Common Travel Area, CTA. Passports and if needed visas are controlled at the entry points in the outer CTA border - be that a UK or an Irish port/airport or at the Eurostar train.

All EU26 citizens with a valid passport can now and post Brexit enter the CTA for 90 days. Until Brexit a national ID card will also allow 90 days entry to the UK.

Why should an EU26 citizen travel via Dublin, when they now can and post Brexit will be able to enter the UK directly by just getting and showing a passport????

Lars

Strazdas · 26-06-2019 09:42PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Meanwhile the English establishment seems tone-deaf about the wishes of the Scots as seen in this amazing discussion:

https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1143587403770322947

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

I actually don't mind Paul Burrell but Scotland is a bigger country than Ireland and Norway and a reasonably well off one too.

Professor Moriarty · 26-06-2019 09:48PM

Strazdas wrote: »

I actually don't mind Paul Burrell but Scotland is a bigger country than Ireland and Norway and a reasonably well off one too.

I had to look him up. I had assumed he was a politician. He's a Z list celebrity whose opinion is meaningless. I thought Vine was a serious broadcaster but I was obviously wrong.

Strazdas · 26-06-2019 09:54PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I had to look him up. I had assumed he was a politician. He's a Z list celebrity whose opinion is meaningless. I thought Vine was a serious broadcaster but I was obviously wrong.

Vine's show is not a current affairs programme. It's more of a general discussion show like Loose Women etc, hence Burrell being on it.

An Ciarraioch · 26-06-2019 09:54PM

Bizarrely, Politico have Leo on their shortlist for Commission President if Weber pulls out - perhaps they haven't realised yet that Coveney and Donohue provide the substance in FG?

https://www.politico.eu/article/9-center-right-candidates-european-commission-president/

A Dub in Glasgo · 26-06-2019 10:11PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Don't know if it was mentioned but thought it was interesting that known Brexiter Julia Hartley-Brewer today tweeted this:

So now we're firmly into the territory of Brexit > 'the precious Union.'

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1143940317164527616

Also saw Gordon Brown warning that a Johnson premiership could mean the break-up of the UK. Meanwhile the English establishment seems tone-deaf about the wishes of the Scots as seen in this amazing discussion:

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

Thread on Twitter
https://twitter.com/Zarkwan/status/1139091681138135045

FrancieBrady · 26-06-2019 10:11PM

Is Francois cabinet potential in a Boris government?

Nate--IRL-- · 26-06-2019 10:12PM

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Bizarrely, Politico have Leo on their shortlist for Commission President if Weber pulls out - perhaps they haven't realised yet that Coveney and Donohue provide the substance in FG?

https://www.politico.eu/article/9-center-right-candidates-european-commission-president/

To quote Douglas Adams

The President in particular is very much a figurehead — he wields no real power whatsoever. He is apparently chosen by the government, but the qualities he is required to display are not those of leadership but those of finely judged outrage. For this reason the President is always a controversial choice, always an infuriating but fascinating character. His job is not to wield power but to draw attention away from it.

Nate

Sam Russell · 26-06-2019 10:13PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

I think they house the British Nuclear Deterrent plus quite a bit of their army and RAF - not sure how much navy.

They also voted to remain part of the UK to stay in the EU, and voted to stay in the EU three years ago.

Hmmm - I think he is providing Nicola with a bit of ammo.

FrancieBrady · 26-06-2019 10:19PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think they house the British Nuclear Deterrent plus quite a bit of their army and RAF - not sure how much navy.

There was quite a bit of talk about Faslane - home of Trident - during the independence ref. SNP are anti-nuclear weapons and said they would turn it into a conventional naval base while Westminster pledged to make the base for all nuclear sub activity.

I think they don't really have anywhere else as well equipped geographically for it.

Sam Russell · 26-06-2019 10:21PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was quite a bit of talk about Faslane - home of Trident - during the independence ref. SNP are anti-nuclear weapons and said they would turn it into a conventional naval base while Westminster pledged to make the base for all nuclear sub activity.

I think they don't really have anywhere else as well equipped geographically for it.

I thought an independent Scotland might keep the independent Nuclear deterrent for them selves to keep England in order and the other side of the border.

A Dub in Glasgo · 26-06-2019 10:24PM

There are no other facilities (at the moment) in the UK that can handle them and an independent Scotland could earn some decent income in the short term renting out these facilities

Nuclear weapon storage facility (inside the mountain)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNAD_Coulport

Nuclear submarine base
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNB_Clyde#Faslane_Naval_Base

Enzokk · 26-06-2019 10:26PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Don't know if it was mentioned but thought it was interesting that known Brexiter Julia Hartley-Brewer today tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1143893495956037632

So now we're firmly into the territory of Brexit > 'the precious Union.'

Also saw Gordon Brown warning that a Johnson premiership could mean the break-up of the UK. Meanwhile the English establishment seems tone-deaf about the wishes of the Scots as seen in this amazing discussion:

https://twitter.com/lumi_1984/status/1143587403770322947

"For goodness sake, Scotland by itself? How's it going to survive?"

"What does it have? Oil, and a monster in a lake?"

I can't see the Scots putting up with British politics 2019-style for much longer.

I really don't know why any Scot would want to stay in the UK. Their politicians have been ignored and thus the voice of Scotland has been silenced. The Scottish Conservatives are useless as they stand against everything that Scotland as a whole seem to represent in the HoC and the people of England obviously look down on them as just a tiny little country not able to hold a candle to the majesty of England.

I found the end of the conversation interesting, where they fall over themselves to defend Johnson and how he wouldn't talk down to Scotland* but in the end Jeremy Vine realized that Johnson never mentions Scotland so he would in fact be dismissive of them as Brown said he would. So let's comment on how wrong Brown is by realizing he is right.

*He has said things about Scotland, he thinks no Scottish MP should ever become PM. He thinks Gordon Brown perpetrated a fraud by becoming PM and not calling a general election and he published a poem in the Spectator when he was editor that called Scottish people vermin.

Water John · 26-06-2019 10:31PM

So Johnson believes Gove is disqualified from even attempting to become PM.

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Comments