Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

I found this tweet interesting about UKIP and Brexit and whether the anger over austerity drove their support. Seems the conclusion is that UKIP voters wanted further austerity measures that went deeper. That sounds like Tory voters more than what you would expect Labour voters would support.

https://twitter.com/robfordmancs/status/1142050165530009601

Berserker wrote:

How do you know that he doesn't believe it in? He's supported Brexit from day one as far as I can see.

He hasn't. If the wind was blowing a different way one day before the referendum he would have decided to publish his column in favour of remain not brexit. Remember he had two different columns ready to go.

How contemporary does this speech sound?
"Rest assured mighty changes are coming in Ireland. ...The Unionist position is no longer tenable; your leaders are abandoning it...Do you not see that Englishmen are prepared to sacrifice you if they can only secure the good will of the rest of Ireland? Is it not time that you reconsidered yyour position?...IReland's right to determine its own destiny will come about whether the Protestants of Ulster like it or not"

* Emphasis in bold is mine.

Does that sound like a Sinn Fein or Fianna Fail speech made at a summer school post Brexit referendum, ie some time since 2016?

Actually it was a speech made to Derry's Protestants/Unionists in January 1920, nearly 100 years ago!!!, by newly elected Mayor of Derry Alderman Hugh O'Doherty. It was to be the only time until 1973 when a Catholic had been appointed mayor of this predominantly Catholic city and it was of course during the war of independence when the Nationalists/Republicans were confident of ultimate victory following Sinn Fein's stunning win at the 1918 general election. the speech was recorded in the Derry Journal and quoted later in Eamon McCann's book War and an Irish Town.

Interesting the faith Nationalists had in the ultimate lack of interest in ireland's affairs by London, so long as "the goodwill of..IReland" could be assured. They got that one sadly wrong, didn't they?

I think Britain's strategic interest in maintaining a foothold in Ireland will become more acute post Brexit and their determination to stay, however dire may be teh consequences for society in the North, will only be enhanced.

I can't see Brexit as being in any way a facilitator for a United Ireland.

robinph wrote: »

I think you are reading too much into it.

There was a protest going on, across the other side of the room is loads of shouting and shoving and people being bundled out of the room. One of the protesters runs past his table, he gets up and blocks their way.

She knew 100% what she was getting into. He may have put a hand in a wrong place in the minor pushing and shoving that was happening, although if trying to block the progress of a woman in a dress a hand on the back of the neck is probably one of the safer places to hold them.

She was walking alongside his table and dozens of people. She wasn't saying anything. Just walking, wearing a sash saying climate change blah blah.. and holding a phone in her hand.

Such a brave man to take her on. What with her being such a menacing presence and everything.

He could have simply stood in her path to block her, big man that he is. Or pushed out his chair to get in her way. But no, instead he chose to grab her by the neck and shove her into a pillar.

If he'd had a bit of cop on like the hundreds of others sitting there who realised security would handle it, and if he'd kept his hands to himself, he wouldn't be in the mess he's in now.
His own fault and I've zero sympathy for him.

Berserker wrote: »

Angry at the British government because the EU decided to build a hard border on the island? It's the EU building the wall not the British government.

Do you not realize that if/when the UK leave with no-deal, both the EU and the UK are required to have a border?

robinph wrote: »

Yep, it's currently on the front of most news sites incase you've not seen it yourself.

He gives her a shove to block her way, then she wriggles to try to get past him, then he pushes her back the way she came. It's barely more force than was being used to remove the rest of the protesters from the room, just most of the video of the rest of them you can't see anything other than arms in the air and general pushing and shoving going on so difficult to make a headline news story about those bits on their own.

Yes, he's a muppet, but it's nothing like the scandal that it's trying to be made out as. She is also not pressing charges, presumably because she realises that nothing will come of it other than a few more newspaper headlines.

The way he held her neck as he pushed her out was deeply worrying. And the way he shoved her up against the pillar.

There is no justification or excuse. Writing it off as nothing major is pathetic.

BJ has refused to take part in the Sky News debate with Jeremy Hunt next Tuesday!

ERG members backed him for not taking part in last Sunday's debate with the excuse that there was too many people in it who wouldn't be in the final run-off. I look forward to their new excuse. It should be hilarious!

Laois_Man wrote: »

Do you not realize that if/when the UK leave with no-deal, both the EU and the UK are required to have a border?

He/she and every person realises this. The proposed idea of ‘just leave the border wide open’ and ‘we won’t put one up and you said you don’t want one, so what’s the problem?’. As regulations diverge, particular example being when the UK has to lower food safety standards and accept chlorinated chicken and hormone fed beef, etc there, we absolutely need to protect the single market and our own food safety standards the very high esteem and high quality our agricultural exports are held in. That’s just one issue with the ‘leave the border wide open’. If a single tabloid in GB wrote a story about a Polish plumber sneaking to GB to do some work via the open Ireland-northern ireland border there’d be an campaign to close it up, unless the UK could get concessions from the EU

The deliberate dishonesty and ignorance perfectly exemplifies the zero-integrity approach to this on the UK Brexiteer side.

BluePlanet wrote: »

Perhaps you are not familiar with the Downing Street Declaration?

The Prime Minister...reiterates, on the behalf of the British Government, that they have no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland. Their primary interest is to see peace, stability and reconciliation established by agreement among all the people inhabit the island,

I'm very familiar with the Downing St Declaration. I'm also familiar with the tendency of the powerful to treat such documents as mere scraps of paper when it suits them.

I'm not saying I welcome the likely scenario; I most certainly don't. I wish with all my heart that Brexit wasn't going to happen, but it is. And the consequences could be dire. For us. Frankly, I don't care what it does to Britain, they made their own bed let them lie on it.

I also don't doubt that the Declaration was sincerely made at the time but that was 25 years ago. To quote the poets
"All changed, changed utterly, an almighty **** up is taking place"
Or
"The treaty broken ere the ink wherewith ’twas writ could dry" (ditto for Declarations)

I'm just saying: 100 years ago some Nationalists thought the Brits would like nothing more than to be rid of the place. And today, many seem to think the same. I'd like to, but I think we'll be stuck with them for some time yet.

Will it damage him, doubt it? Like our own Charlie Haughey.