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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭Mezcita


    Oh dear!

    How can this guy keep his position?

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/20/greenpeace-activists-target-philip-hammond-speech-in-climate-protest

    Mark Field urged to quit as minister after grabbing climate protester
    Video shows Foreign Office minister manhandling female demonstrator

    Just got suspended.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Oh dear!

    How can this guy keep his position?

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/20/greenpeace-activists-target-philip-hammond-speech-in-climate-protest

    Mark Field urged to quit as minister after grabbing climate protester
    Video shows Foreign Office minister manhandling female demonstrator

    Unsurprisingly, he's an elite Brexiteer. It was an assault. He pushed her violently, then he grabbed her neck and marched her out like like a Victorian schoolmaster. Not to play the internet hard man, but If it was my wife or daughter and I was there, I would have punched him.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Berserker wrote: »
    A no deal Brexit will do a hell of a lot of damage to the rest of the EU and they want to avoid that at all costs. I've every confidence in Boris when it comes to these negotiations. I hope/expect that he'll take a Trumpian approach and we'll see a change in tact from the EU when that happens. The UK is not going to sail into economic nothingness, if it leaves on a no deal Brexit. People are forgetting that!


    If by "Trumpian Approach" you mean scream , shout and use xenophobic/misogynist dog whistles along with claiming all kinds of wonderful never seen before victories whilst in reality delivering nine tenths of sod all.

    Then yes, you are probably spot on.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,517 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    If by "Trumpian Approach" you mean scream , shout and use xenophobic/misogynist dog whistles along with claiming all kinds of wonderful never seen before victories whilst in reality delivering nine tenths of sod all.

    Then yes, you are probably spot on.
    To be fair to Trump I think Boris would deliver even less than Trump has managed of his campaign promises simply because between being ousted (delivering or failing to deliver a crash out Brexit as ironically both are likely to get him ousted but by different parts of the party/parliament) as a PM he's simply don't even have time to get a new budget through with the tax cuts etc. Hence his delivery rate is likely to below even the pathetic rate of Trump. But at least he can claim to have been PM and that's his only goal; similar enough to how May's only goal was to be PM for as long as possible and damn anyone and everyone to meet that target.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Nody wrote: »
    To be fair to Trump I think Boris would deliver even less than Trump has managed of his campaign promises simply because between being ousted (delivering or failing to deliver a crash out Brexit as ironically both are likely to get him ousted but by different parts of the party/parliament) as a PM he's simply don't even have time to get a new budget through with the tax cuts etc. Hence his delivery rate is likely to below even the pathetic rate of Trump. But at least he can claim to have been PM and that's his only goal; similar enough to how May's only goal was to be PM for as long as possible and damn anyone and everyone to meet that target.

    I really do think it is very possible that history will judge May more favourably than Johnson in years to come.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Unsurprisingly, he's an elite Brexiteer. It was an assault. He pushed her violently, then he grabbed her neck and marched her out like like a Victorian schoolmaster. Not to play the internet hard man, but If it was my wife or daughter and I was there, I would have punched him.

    I think if it was your wife or daughter and you were their then you'd either have already been arrested on the way into the room if you were supporting them, or you'd have been jumping up to stop them before they had got as far as the MP.

    Either that or you'd have been scurrying out the fire exit and hoping that nobody realised it was your wife or daughter that was making a scene and ruining your ride on the gravy train that got you a seat in the room in the first place.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,785 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I really do think it is very possible that history will judge May more favourably than Johnson in years to come.

    On a relative scale, you are probably correct. She will still rank amongst the worst ever.

    May was/is hopelessly out of her depth in the attempts at negotiating Brexit but also just generally in terms of her overall leadership ability.

    Johnson however knows exactly what he's doing - I don't buy the "bumbling public schoolboy" schtick for a minute.

    In years to come people will look back at the last 3 PMs (assuming Johnson takes the mantle) and the 3 of them will without a shadow of doubt make any "All-Time Worst" top five list (Tory or otherwise), which really is a measure of how utterly awful the entire Brexit shambles is/was/shall be .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Alan_P wrote: »
    But how does that get through the HOC, given DUP resistance ?
    It is plain as day that GB MPs do not give a flying fig about NI ... the possibility of this getting through the HoC without the support of the DUP is feasible.

    The traditional tribal politics in England has deteriorated to such an extent, and been replaced by pro- or anti-Brexit camps that the DUP are already pretty much irrelevant. Given that there are suggestions that the new PM will struggle to secure the support of the house for his own role, and an election is only being staved off through the fear of seats being lost, the confidence & supply arrangement counts for nothing any more.

    So Boris's only renegotiation option is to revert to the NI-only backstop (as proposed in the Spring by the EU) and get a majority for the WA on the grounds that he has regnegotiated something, that it's better to leave now with a plan than look for another extension, that some Brexit is better than none, that "everyone" just wants to get on with it, etc, etc. Sacrificing the feelings of a few Paddies is a small price to pay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    robinph wrote: »
    I think if it was your wife or daughter and you were their then you'd either have already been arrested on the way into the room if you were supporting them, or you'd have been jumping up to stop them before they had got as far as the MP.

    Either that or you'd have been scurrying out the fire exit and hoping that nobody realised it was your wife or daughter that was making a scene and ruining your ride on the gravy train that got you a seat in the room in the first place.

    The chances of my ever becoming a Tory MP are rather remote.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,887 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Tories are now a man down following a recall petition in Wales; in an area that was Lib Dem for an age and where they have a sitting AM - could easily swap in the by election and starts to bring the numbers for getting a Queens Speech through in to severe doubt


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭farmchoice


    The traditional tribal politics in England has deteriorated to such an extent, and been replaced by pro- or anti-Brexit camps that the DUP are already pretty much irrelevant. Given that there are suggestions that the new PM will struggle to secure the support of the house for his own role, and an election is only being staved off through the fear of seats being lost, the confidence & supply arrangement counts for nothing any more.

    So Boris's only renegotiation option is to revert to the NI-only backstop (as proposed in the Spring by the EU) and get a majority for the WA on the grounds that he has regnegotiated something, that it's better to leave now with a plan than look for another extension, that some Brexit is better than none, that "everyone" just wants to get on with it, etc, etc. Sacrificing the feelings of a few Paddies is a small price to pay.


    he will need labour votes to get this passed and he will need a good few as there are at least 10-20 tories who wont back this.
    to get these votes i think he will have to agree to a second ref. this will actually suit him down to the ground because he can blame it on labour safe in the knowledge remain will win.
    he is off the hook of brexit and it wasn't his fault it was a combination of the paddies and corybn, his support bases two biggest bogymen ( wrong paddies but they dont really know the difference).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Berserker wrote: »
    Debunked? TM was not a Brexiteer. Boris truly believes in it. New game starts when he goes to Brussels.



    So the EU will implement a hard border to protect it's borders. I just hope that republicans will direct their angst at the EU and not the UK when the border appears.

    Have you not been paying attention - Boris believes in nothing except it is his god given right to be PM. When he his PM, all the promises he has made mean NOTHING.

    Why not check out all the promises he made as London mayor


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,930 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The traditional tribal politics in England has deteriorated to such an extent, and been replaced by pro- or anti-Brexit camps that the DUP are already pretty much irrelevant. Given that there are suggestions that the new PM will struggle to secure the support of the house for his own role, and an election is only being staved off through the fear of seats being lost, the confidence & supply arrangement counts for nothing any more.

    Indeed. The Economist's Briefing section this week focuses on the new divide in British politics, namely the idea that people identify more with Leave and Remain than the party they vote for.

    The article is here:

    https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/20/how-brexit-made-britain-a-country-of-remainers-and-leavers

    It's an excellent piece with some fascinating tidbits:
    Plenty of attention has been paid to how Brexit is driving apart the countries that make up the United Kingdom; Scotland and Northern Ireland both backed Remain and bitterly resent being dragged out of the eu by the English. Less consideration has been given to what divides the two tribes of Remainers and Leavers. Even among the moderate middle, Brexit has become the biggest ideological split. Half the population identifies with a religion. Just under two-thirds feels attachment to a political party. Yet 87% identify as a Remainer or Leaver—15 percentage points more than turned out to vote in the referendum......

    Political bickering isn’t new. But it is bigger over Brexit than conventional politics. A study by NatCen Social Research found that 71% of young people living at home backed the same side as their parents in the referendum. By comparison, in the general election of 2015, 86% voted the same way. (The researchers included only those who voted for the two main parties, for a fair comparison with the binary referendum.) Brexit is dividing couples, too. In the election 89% backed the same side as their live-in partner; only 79% did in the referendum. A fifth of counsellors at Relate, which helps couples on the rocks, say Brexit has contributed to bust-ups.

    Prejudice over Brexit is now as strong as that over race. And, perhaps surprisingly, it is the side that talks most about “openness” that is least open to mixing with the other lot. A YouGov/Times poll in January found that whereas only 9% of Leavers would mind if a close relative married a strong Remainer, 37% of Remainers would be bothered if their nearest and dearest hooked up with a Brexiteer. Remainers were also more likely to live in a bubble. Some 62% said all or most of their friends voted the same way, whereas only 51% of Leavers did.....

    The referendum provoked an ugly spike of 50% or so in racial and religious hate crimes. But by the end of 2016 the number had returned to its trend level. The public is less hostile to immigration than before the vote, partly because inflows from the eu have drastically reduced.

    Yet there is deep frustration with how things are going. The British Election Study found that 38% thought the referendum had been conducted unfairly. This is not an ordinary case of sore losers. Half as many thought the previous general election unfair. The gridlock in Parliament, where mps have been caught between loyalty to their constituents, their party and the instruction of the referendum, has undermined faith in politics. The Hansard Society, a research body, finds that 37% believe the system needs a “great deal” of change—ten points more than the previous record, in 2010, when mps were mired in an expenses scandal. Willingness to contact an mp has fallen; willingness to march or join a picket has risen. More than half agree that “Britain needs a strong leader who is willing to break the rules.”

    The article then goes on to highlight how cities tended to be very much in favour of remaining in the EU while the Leave vote was more spread out:

    20190622_FBM932_0.png

    Leave voters also seem to be more optimistic about the future than Remain voters:

    https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/640-width/images/print-edition/20190622_FBC168_0.png

    We've also seen some odd electoral behaviour such as the Tories starting to gnaw at support in Labour heartlands and vice vearsa. In addition, you have the success of the Brexit party and Lib Dems along with the Greens in the EU elections though there was a low turnout of 37%.

    We are however still stuck with a decrepit two-party system. We need fairly serious change in the electoral system as it's become ever clearer that the status quo is unfit for purpose. At the very least should be voting reform followed up by a look at the House of Lords though the latter seems to be functioning fairly well as far as I can see.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Few more video clips of the protest last night just shown on the news and the MP was only very slightly more physical than the security people who had been trying to deal with the rest of them a bit beforehand. Lots of protestors ran into the room carrying portable loudspeaker units, in a very well organised manner.

    The MP did bundle her out in an unprofessional manner, but he was dealing with one that had got away from the rest of the security so not sure its really quite as bad as the reports first thing this morning were suggesting.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    robinph wrote: »
    Few more video clips of the protest last night just shown on the news and the MP was only very slightly more physical than the security people who had been trying to deal with the rest of them a bit beforehand. Lots of protestors ran into the room carrying portable loudspeaker units, in a very well organised manner.

    The MP did bundle her out in an unprofessional manner, but he was dealing with one that had got away from the rest of the security so not sure its really quite as bad as the reports first thing this morning were suggesting.

    Why was he the one to jump out of his seat and grab her? Those sitting near him took no action. Was he on security duty? Did he consider himself to be the appropriate person to physically assault her? Or is he just a brute?

    It is truly shocking that he took such action. He should resign or be sacked.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    He should resign or be sacked.


    He will be gone in a week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,861 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Why was he the one to jump out of his seat and grab her? Those sitting near him took no action. Was he on security duty? Did he consider himself to be the appropriate person to physically assault her? Or is he just a brute?

    It is truly shocking that he took such action. He should resign or be sacked.

    Some awful hyperbole going on in this thread, you would swear he beat shìte out of her instead of just escorting her out. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The protest group was also deliberately made up of women, with a couple of blokes dressed in dinner jackets to shepard them into the room looking a bit like they were the security themselves. By using women as the visible bit of the protest is purely to enable them to get away with more on the assumption that nobody will belive a woman in a dress is going to cause any trouble and then the security is restricted in how to deal with them once they are inside the venue.

    Nobody would be kicking up a storm in the media if exactly the same physicality had been used against a male protester. Its very deliberate to have used women in the protest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Walter Bishop


    Some awful hyperbole going on in this thread, you would swear he beat shìte out of her instead of just escorting her out. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.


    Lol @ 'escorting her out' unless 'escorting' means 'grabbing her by the neck, shoving her against a pillar, and frogmarching her out of the room, still holding her by the neck'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,074 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And yet when a male protester took over the podium at McVey leadership campaign launch recently nobody grabbed him by the neck?


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Why was he the one to jump out of his seat and grab her? Those sitting near him took no action. Was he on security duty? Did he consider himself to be the appropriate person to physically assault her? Or is he just a brute?

    It is truly shocking that he took such action. He should resign or be sacked.
    Because he just happened to spot the one who had got away from the rest of the security trying to deal with the other 40 protestors. He was also at the end of the table so had more time to spot her running down there and hop up to block her way to the top table.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    He doesn't believe in Brexit. It just suits his political needs.

    How do you know that he doesn't believe it in? He's supported Brexit from day one as far as I can see.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It really doesn't. The rules of the game don't depend on the identity of the players. A late substitution of May, T. by Johnson, B in the dying moments of the match is not going to make any difference.

    A late substitution in the dying stages of a match can have a massive impact on the end result. It's not over til it's over.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,861 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Lol @ 'escorting her out' unless 'escorting' means 'grabbing her by the neck, shoving her against a pillar, and frogmarching her out of the room, still holding her by the neck'.

    Was she injured (apart from her pride)?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Berserker wrote: »
    A late substitution in the dying stages of a match can have a massive impact on the end result. It's not over til it's over.


    It's been over for months. The EU negotiating team have literally gone home already.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,434 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Some awful hyperbole going on in this thread, you would swear he beat shìte out of her instead of just escorting her out. Mountains and molehills spring to mind.

    Putting his hands on her neck looked horrendous. Most men wouldn't dream of touching a woman like that.

    The optics would have been nowhere near as bad if he had put an arm around her shoulder (though still questionable).


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    robinph wrote: »
    Because he just happened to spot the one who had got away from the rest of the security trying to deal with the other 40 protestors. He was also at the end of the table so had more time to spot her running down there and hop up to block her way to the top table.

    I think he was devoured by RAGE and the red mist descended and the RAGE took over, his pride and manliness was at stake.

    He had to act as the pride of the Tory Party was at stake, and to allow a woman to protest was unthinkable. Rage Rage.

    Well, he might have a while to reconsider his action. Are the police investigating?

    Remember the UKIP guy who suggesting rape was the appropriate reaction? What ever happened to him? (Because it was a him).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,653 ✭✭✭Infini


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    And yet when a male protester took over the podium at McVey leadership campaign launch recently nobody grabbed him by the neck?

    She was tresspassing, nobody knew for sure what was happening and he decided to forcibly remove the stupid eejit. He didnt punch, choke or slap her just restrained and removed her. I won't defend the undefendable but its pretty obvious some people are using the issue to shìtstir for point scoring not to mention society has gone too soft in some areas in general dealing with this level of idiocy.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    And yet when a male protester took over the podium at McVey leadership campaign launch recently nobody grabbed him by the neck?

    Hadn't heard of that one, but not really an equivalent situation from the clip I just saw.

    In one you have someone running around the edge of a room containing various vips and the person running has unknown intentions and the only way to stop them is to get in their way and quickly, in the other you have someone stood around shouting who they then talked down/ out of the room.

    Maybe the MP last night was slightly over the top in the force used and putting his hand on her neck, but he did that for only a very brief moment and before that all he was doing was standing up and blocking her way and momentum carried her into the pillar.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    robinph wrote: »
    Hadn't heard of that one, but not really an equivalent situation from the clip I just saw.

    In one you have someone running around the edge of a room containing various vips and the person running has unknown intentions and the only way to stop them is to get in their way and quickly, in the other you have someone stood around shouting who they then talked down/ out of the room.

    Maybe the MP last night was slightly over the top in the force used and putting his hand on her neck, but he did that for only a very brief moment and before that all he was doing was standing up and blocking her way and momentum carried her into the pillar.

    You were watching a different video clip.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    L1011 wrote: »
    Tories are now a man down following a recall petition in Wales; in an area that was Lib Dem for an age and where they have a sitting AM - could easily swap in the by election and starts to bring the numbers for getting a Queens Speech through in to severe doubt


    If they lose that seat then the majority is down to three, with two MPs spoiling their ballot papers in the recent vote, it would make an interesting no-confidence vote if Corbyn decides to call it on whoever is the new PM.

    As for the reaction of the MP, I think he should learn a some restraint. I think he knew he could take the woman and that is why he stood up to confront and remove her. If this had been the guy from the second tweet, I doubt he would have had the courage. It is also no excuse the he was startled, this wasn't someone that caught him by surprise, it was quite a long protest that disrupted their event and it looked peaceful enough.

    https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1141982893134286848

    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1142044539567452161



    As for other news, no reopening of the WA.

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1142022291485810688

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1142022706092826624


This discussion has been closed.
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