Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

volchitsa · 20-06-2019 08:21PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

I didn't state he was nor u should not resume he wasn't either.

Difference of murder & involuntary manslaughter is on the frame of mind of the perpetrator. Both require a homicide but its the frame of mind that makes them specific. For murder its the intention to kill or do really serious injury whereas for manslaughter its recklessness to it, ie did not believe at the time that death would be caused or serious injury done.

But to argue involuntary manslaughter you presumably have to accept that your actions caused the death. You can't deny it all and also say, oh but it was an accident.

They could have argued manslaughter, especially boy B (though not going for help when he heard her scream doesn't plead in his favour but still), but they chose to say it wasn't them at all. That's why they were found guilty of murder - because they set up a scenario that seemed like it was intended to get away with murder.

mrjoneill · 20-06-2019 08:24PM

Lucuma wrote: »

I mean I'm just thinking of Boy B hearing his father shouting that he's innocent and that the court system of this country are a bunch of pr!cks or whatever he said.

What kind of message is that sending to Boy B. You can do what you did and I'll still believe you're innocent? WTF

Whatever message Boy B takes out of it is irrelevant as he is locked up. For me and the general public he made an ass of himself & showed he was a callous b@stard with the clapping too. A beautiful innocent girl was brutally murdered & raped by his scum son with his friend. He spoke for no one but himself & his ignorance.

Boggles · 20-06-2019 08:25PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Unfortunately we are not all that rational. Dads & Mams would continue to transgress believing their little pets would not dare look at porn & use their smart phones for games which gets majority use by teenagers. The use of apps which need internet is so common there is no going back. Internet browsers on mobiles there is no way of controlling it. For me its quite clear the horse has long bolted and is on the way to the end-line. Its time to accept the inevitable & prepare for it.

The absolute vast majority of Parents in this country are fine FFS.

They are not neanderthals when it comes to tech either, it's been around a while, also Dad's know exactly what teenage males get up, they used be one.

Jesus, one tragic ultra rare case of horror and society has crumbled.

I think a lot people need to calm down, the hyperbole has hit 11.

Hal3000 · 20-06-2019 08:25PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Unfortunately we are not all that rational. Dads & Mams would continue to transgress believing their little pets would not dare look at porn & use their smart phones for games which gets majority use by teenagers. The use of apps which need internet is so common there is no going back. Internet browsers on mobiles there is no way of controlling it. For me its quite clear the horse has long bolted and is on the way to the end-line. Its time to accept the inevitable & prepare for it.

Yeah agree we're pretty much done for as a society. That slow train Bob Dylan talked about is coming!!

beggars_bush · 20-06-2019 08:26PM

Lucuma wrote: »

I mean I'm just thinking of Boy B hearing his father shouting that he's innocent and that the court system of this country are a bunch of pr!cks or whatever he said.

What kind of message is that sending to Boy B. You can do what you did and I'll still believe you're innocent? WTF

The kids take after the parents it seems

Larbre34 · 20-06-2019 08:26PM

Force Carrier wrote: »

You must prove common design. You must prove B knew what was going to happen at the house. Not just 'i think' 'or sure what else was he doing'.

Without B's confession all we would know was he took Anna half way to a place where someone else killed her. Did he know what would happen to her at the house. Hmm. Maybe. But maybe not. Who knows.
The bar is set in a Criminal Trial of proven beyond reasonable doubt.
You could speculate he thought it was a genuine date.
Or he thought it would be a small assault.
Or anything.
It's all speculation.
To prove murder you must show he had knowledge of what was happening and was a full and willing participant. His answers in Garda interrogation gave us that. Otherwise not.

Indeed you do have to prove it and so it was, but you cannot say that he hung himself in his Garda interviews and otherwise there would have been no proof. In that event, the case would have been structured differently by the DPP and Prosecution Counsel. These guys could have made significant headway with his identification by witnesses and CCTV.

He is far from the sole architect of his own downfall.

mrjoneill · 20-06-2019 08:30PM

volchitsa wrote: »

But to argue involuntary manslaughter you presumably have to accept that your actions caused the death. You can't deny it all and also say, oh but it was an accident.

They could have argued manslaughter, especially boy B (though not going for help when he heard her scream doesn't plead in his favour but still), but they chose to say it wasn't them at all. That's why they were found guilty of murder - because they set up a scenario that seemed like it was intended to get away with murder.

Absolutely they pleaded not guilty so MS was a non runner. And for Boy A it was never a runner for MS the facts were so awful and his preparedness. The lies and inaction of Boy B once he got Ana into the frame was going to be very damning for him for the jury when he did nothing to save her.

joe40 · 20-06-2019 08:33PM

Hal3000 wrote: »

Yeah agree we're pretty much done for as a society. That slow train Bob Dylan talked about is coming!!

75 years ago millions, literally millions of people were been killed in ww2.
Society right now is doing ok.

20-06-2019 08:33PM

Primetime Special about the case on RTE now.

mrjoneill · 20-06-2019 08:34PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Are we meant to feel sympathy for boy B’s family being forced into hiding ? Seriously ?

Not me, I still have not heard an apology for the grief he has caused from him or from his parents of what he done.

Nerdlingr · 20-06-2019 08:34PM

volchitsa wrote: »

This has been repeated before : there doesn't have to have been a plan to kill her, it is enough if there was a plan to do her harm (hit her to incapacitate her and then rape her for example) - if she died as a result of that plan being put into action, then that is also murder and B was an active accomplice.

Since Boy B said that nobody liked her, or wanted to be seen with her, it's obvious that he didn't think he was bringing her to a romantic tryst.

So he knew he was bringing her there to have some harm done to her. And that's what happened.

Edit:I was not the one to bring "the plan" into it. That was mrjoneill. I was asking him how do we know Boy B knew if a plan to do ana harm. A question he still hasn't answered.

I think we're getting away from the original point of all this....which is hourrrrss ago at this stage!...that if Boy B says nothing then the police don't have a case against him.
CCTV and witness statements and speculating that he knew ana would come to some kind of harm is not evidence enough to prove he is guilty of murder.
Just because he says he didnt like ana that does not equate to wanting to do her harm... without some kind of evidence.

That would be one hell of a jump to make.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this point.
If people don't understand that after 5 hours of posting on here, they probably never will.
Night all.

Sardonicat · 20-06-2019 08:36PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Not me, I still have not heard an apology for the grief he has caused from him or from his parents of what he done.

What about any siblings he may have? What have they done?

volchitsa · 20-06-2019 08:39PM

mrjoneill wrote: »

Absolutely they pleaded not guilty so MS was a non runner. And for Boy A it was never a runner for MS the facts were so awful and his preparedness. The lies and inaction of Boy B once he got Ana into the frame was going to be very damning for him for the jury when he did nothing to save her.

I definitely think B could have got away with a manslaughter claim. I'd be very worried about how he's going to develop now, even with psychological counselling and whatever, I think he's extremely devious for a 13 year old and will be very very dangerous when he becomes an adult.

I don't believe for one minute the stuff about sticks for playing swords or wanting Lego at the detention centre, and it concerns me that the psychologist (but not the Gardaí, luckily) seems to have fallen for it. Because I'm convinced that he will continue to manipulate the psychologists he will be in contact with now, and I fear they will be only too ready to believe that they've done sterling work on him and turned him into a nice boy who was dragged into a nasty business.

Gimme A Pound · 20-06-2019 08:39PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

What about any siblings he may have? What have they done?

Yeah ffs it's going too far to punish the whole family.

Pity the warriors in Ana's community now didn't use such energy to help her when she was being bullied.

fryup · 20-06-2019 08:43PM

Force Carrier wrote: »

We are all of us formed by a mixture of nature and nurture.
Our genes play a role. Our environment plays a role.

Some people in their intrinsic physiological make up lack empathy. Events in their childhood and life then play a role in forming their personality and behavior. But you have to be wired up a particular way to want hurt and kill people. 99.9% of the population could watch all the porn until kingdom come but they wouldn't bring a girl to an abandoned house. Drinking in her confusion, panic and pain. Savagely smash their skull in. And then go home and eat their dinner and go to bed. These were fundamentally bad little fcukers. A trace element of the population are and always will be.

and yet what are the chances of two Psychopaths being in the same school and same class??

i wonder were they as thick as thieves from a very early age? one influencing the other??

Force Carrier · 20-06-2019 08:47PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Indeed you do have to prove it and so it was, but you cannot say that he hung himself in his Garda interviews and otherwise there would have been no proof. In that event, the case would have been structured differently by the DPP and Prosecution Counsel. These guys could have made significant headway with his identification by witnesses and CCTV.

He is far from the sole architect of his own downfall.

Mens Rea was necessary.
Without his admissions his knowledge he was involved in a murder could not be estalbished.
No "significant headway" could be made from cctv and witnesses because they merely showed him bringing a girl part way to a date.

Igotadose · 20-06-2019 08:52PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

What about any siblings he may have? What have they done?

Potentially plenty. Hid some egregious behavior by the murderers from the parents at an early age that might've helped nip this in the bud. The murderers were pretty sophisticated (multiple cellphones full of porn, apparently, pretty adult behavior for 13 year olds.) Their siblings couldn't have been in the dark. We may know in a few years, who knows.

Sorry, but this family's comfy life is over. Ostracism is perfectly acceptable in this case, actions have consequences. They should move away, they won't be able to show themselves in town, they were parents and siblings of brutal murderers. Forgiveness is crap.

volchitsa · 20-06-2019 08:53PM

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Edit:I was not the one to bring "the plan" into it. That was mrjoneill. I was asking him how do we know Boy B knew if a plan to do ana harm. A question he still hasn't answered.

I think we're getting away from the original point of all this....which is hourrrrss ago at this stage!...that if Boy B says nothing then the police don't have a case against him.
CCTV and witness statements and speculating that he knew ana would come to some kind of harm is not evidence enough to prove he is guilty of murder.
Just because he says he didnt like ana that does not equate to wanting to do her harm... without some kind of evidence.

That would be one hell of a jump to make.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this point.
If people don't understand that after 5 hours of posting on here, they probably never will.
Night all.

Don't know about anyone else but I've been at work so certainly not posting for five hours on this!

TBH I'm not sure what you're saying : if you mean that if he had said nothing he could have got away with it, well I agree completely and have just said so (I hadn't seen you post at that point). However that would not mean he was not guilty of exactly the same actions for which he has been convicted.

The point is, he did talk, and it's fair enough to take what he said into account, if it fits with what we already know.

And one of the things he said was that nobody liked Ana, nobody wanted to be seen with her and that she was slutty and so on. So there is no way he thought boy A wanted to go out with her.

Also, the way they came and went by different paths etc showed that at the very least they knew she might not cooperate if they were more open about what was planned, and very likely that they were in fact thinking of other people (guards? Her parents?) and trying to throw them off the scent.

Sardonicat · 20-06-2019 09:00PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Potentially plenty. Hid some egregious behavior by the murderers from the parents at an early age that might've helped nip this in the bud. The murderers were pretty sophisticated (multiple cellphones full of porn, apparently, pretty adult behavior for 13 year olds.) Their siblings couldn't have been in the dark. We may know in a few years, who knows.

Sorry, but this family's comfy life is over. Ostracism is perfectly acceptable in this case, actions have consequences. They should move away, they won't be able to show themselves in town, they were parents and siblings of brutal murderers. Forgiveness is crap.

I don't know the family make up myself. But just to be clear; you think any siblings, who may be very young , should be punished by society for the rest of their lives for something they had no hand, act or part in .You actually think this should happen?

dickangel · 20-06-2019 09:01PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Potentially plenty. Hid some egregious behavior by the murderers from the parents at an early age that might've helped nip this in the bud. The murderers were pretty sophisticated (multiple cellphones full of porn, apparently, pretty adult behavior for 13 year olds.) Their siblings couldn't have been in the dark. We may know in a few years, who knows.

Sorry, but this family's comfy life is over. Ostracism is perfectly acceptable in this case, actions have consequences. They should move away, they won't be able to show themselves in town, they were parents and siblings of brutal murderers. Forgiveness is crap.

What a load of sh1te.

tuxy · 20-06-2019 09:02PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

I don't know the family make up myself. But just to be clear; you think any siblings, who may be very young , should be punished by society for the rest of their lives for something they had no hand, act or part in .You actually think this should happen?

And perhaps Grandparents also. Three generations punished, it's standard practice in communist countries so why not here?

dickangel · 20-06-2019 09:03PM

tuxy wrote: »

And perhaps Grandparents also. Three generations punished, it's standard practice in communist countries so why not here?

Perhaps the household pets as well?

jobbridge4life · 20-06-2019 09:04PM

Tonight the following is true:

Boy A and Boy B are detained and will be for many years. This is right and proper.

Wannabe vigilantes, keyboard hard men and people who get some weird, sad satisfaction from seeming more distressed/or outraged about the situation have been clamouring for the names... the pictures... for the parents to be imprisoned... for their other children to be seized and handed over to strangers.

I make absolutely no apology for knowing and saying that those in that camp are shameful, and those who share your feelings are responsible for the other truths of this night:

An innocent child has been named, shamed and shared as one of the perpetrators;

The family of Boy B, who include other young and totally innocent children have been forced into hiding.

And for what?

I echo the remarks of Justice Michael White, and hope that AGS “pursue with vigour” the “idiots” responsible for this. Including as many of the sad mob begging for it as possible.

iamwhoiam · 20-06-2019 09:07PM

Just watched Prime Time . What a sad and painful story to watch . Anas parents are so dignified and spoke beautiful words about their Ana outside court
Sometimes we forget that Ana was a mother and fathers little girl and their pain and trauma is heart wrenching .

Let us never forget Ana and I hope we learn from this . And just maybe young people watching might think twice about what they did by de humanising Ana and see what bullying does . Maybe parents will see it and speak to their kids and maybe schools will see it and review their actions towards bullying
Let Anas story teach us to watch out for each other .

Gimme A Pound · 20-06-2019 09:07PM

Igotadose wrote: »

Potentially plenty. Hid some egregious behavior by the murderers from the parents at an early age that might've helped nip this in the bud. The murderers were pretty sophisticated (multiple cellphones full of porn, apparently, pretty adult behavior for 13 year olds.) Their siblings couldn't have been in the dark. We may know in a few years, who knows.

Sorry, but this family's comfy life is over. Ostracism is perfectly acceptable in this case, actions have consequences. They should move away, they won't be able to show themselves in town, they were parents and siblings of brutal murderers. Forgiveness is crap.

That's just speculation about the siblings. It is of no value. Bizarre the way you're writing bits of it as if it's fact. I didn't know the faintest clue about anything my brothers were up to. Nobody said anything about forgiveness.

It's pretty sh1tty to be saying the siblings deserve ostracisation simply because of who their brothers are. ****ing hell.

If only those in the community who think the same way you do had used that passion to help Ana when she was alive.

Sardonicat · 20-06-2019 09:08PM

tuxy wrote: »

And perhaps Grandparents also. Three generations punished, it's standard practice in communist countries so why not here?

Maybe all the inhabitants of Leixlip should be rounded up and burned alive or shot in the back of the head at the edge of a pit?

Would that satisfy you?

jimmycrackcorm · 20-06-2019 09:08PM

Gerianam wrote: »

Yes! Well done GardaProfessional to their finger tips. They are not getting the regognition they deserve. They excelled themselves in this investigation.

At the end, Ana's parents hugged the guards. They're much more than policemen, guardians of the peace is a deserved name.

Happy4all · 20-06-2019 09:09PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Tonight the following is true:

Boy A and Boy B are detained and will be for many years. This is right and proper.

Wannabe vigilantes, keyboard hard men and people who get some weird, sad satisfaction from seeming more distressed/or outraged about the situation have been clamouring for the names... the pictures... for the parents to be imprisoned... for their other children to be seized and handed over to strangers.

I make absolutely no apology for knowing and saying that those in that camp are shameful, and those who share your feelings are responsible for the other truths of this night:

An innocent child has been named, shamed and shared as one of the perpetrators;

The family of Boy B, who include other young and totally innocent children have been forced into hiding.

And for what?

I echo the remarks of Justice Michael White, and hope that AGS “pursue with vigour” the “idiots” responsible for this. Including as many of the sad mob begging for it as possible.

everybody locally know them from day one. Can't help feel their post sentence outcry is part of trying to dilute justice for Ana.

bessboroughboy · 20-06-2019 09:11PM

For anyone interested, try googling "frontal lobe" and "serial killers". The point is that it may be the case that some people are simply born bad.

Regarding the internet, what they viewed may have influenced them as to what kind of a scenario they chose, but perhaps they would have acted on their impulses in any case, albeit with a different modus operandi.

Either way, society needs to be protected from bittle lastards like these so throw away the key because rehabilitation is hardly an option.

Gimme A Pound · 20-06-2019 09:13PM

Happy4all wrote: »

everybody locally know them from day one. Can't help feel their post sentence outcry is part of trying to dilute justice for Ana.

Whose post sentence outcry? The dad I know, but were there others?

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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