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Irish court judgments' watch: yet another shameful one

  • 19-06-2019 10:20PM
    #1
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭


    On tonight's RTÉ News, 27-year-old Francis Hughes from Castleblayney received 8 years for murdering a 41-year-old father of four children, Graham Tobin, in a single punch, unprovoked attack.

    Although Hughes was only found guilty of "manslaughter", after the assault he closed the blinds, locked the doors of the house and threatened anybody who wanted to call the ambulance so the victim lay on the floor for hours with Hughes reported as saying he was 'not going back to jail'. Back? He then suggested that he would put the victim in his car boot and drive off and bury him. At this stage the victim was not even dead; he died 11 days later in Beaumont. With remission, will Hughes even have to serve 6 of those years before he's released? How can a human life have such little value put on it? Indeed, as the victim is leaving 4 children and a wife, 6-8 years in prison is beyond offensive. Once again an Irish judge is not laying down any deterrent for the seemingly endless number of yobs with zero value on human life. Yes, prison is rarely the solution especially when drug addiction is involved but if a thug knows that with a decent sob story he'll only get a slap on the wrist even for taking a life it's not much of a protection for the rest of us.


    Irish Times: Man jailed for eight years for ‘one-punch’ manslaughter


    RTÉ: Man sentenced to eight years for fatal single-punch attack]Man sentenced to eight years for fatal single-punch attack

    A 27-year-old man who pleaded guilty to the manslaughter of Graham Tobin in a single-punch attack in Co Monaghan last October has been sentenced to eight years in jail.

    Francis Hughes with an address in Oram, Castleblayney, admitted punching Graham Tobin at the same address, where a number of people had gathered to watch a Conor McGregor MMA fight.

    Handing down the sentence today, Judge John Aylmer said the case was an exceptionally serious unprovoked attack.

    He noted the failure of Hughes to seek medical attention after the incident, the prevention of others to seek medical help and his suggestion at one point to put the victim in the boot of his car.


    Judge Alymer said the severity of the punch to the nose caused a number of fractures to Mr Tobin and noted Hughes' expression of satisfaction, according to witnesses, when he knocked Mr Tobin out.

    However, he said he was taking into account the fact Hughes made an early guilty plea and while he did not cooperate with the garda investigation he handed himself in to gardaí for interview.

    Judge Alymer said Hughes has been described as a model prisoner who had obtained a certificate in an alternatives to violence project.

    The family of Mr Tobin reacted emotionally when the sentence was handed down.

    Mr Tobin's wife, Ramona, left the courtroom shortly afterwards in tears.

    Monaghan Circuit Court was told the victim had been struck in the face by Hughes in what was described as an "unprovoked assault".

    Mr Tobin fell back and struck his head on a step at the back of the house.

    He never regained consciousness and died at Beaumont Hospital in Dublin 11 days later. The father-of-four suffered injuries to the head and brain that included a fractured skull.

    Mr Tobin was one of a number of people who had gone to the house to watch a UFC fight involving McGregor. The fight ended at around 5am.

    The court was also told that a female witness who said she saw the attack believed it happened at about 6am.

    It was not until 9.55am that the ambulance service was called and gardaí were alerted.


    Sergeant John Daly, who led the investigation, said a number of witnesses were interviewed and had reported that Hughes initially claimed that the injured man was fine.

    He told the court the witnesses said that Hughes had pulled down the blinds, locked the doors and asked people not to call an ambulance saying: "I'm not going back to jail."

    The female witness and another man left the house shortly before 10am. She then called the ambulance service, but did so anonymously because she was in fear.


    In a victim impact statement, Mr Tobin's wife said it was difficult enough to accept that her husband had died from a violent assault, but that this was compounded by the way that he was left lying for hours in a stranger's house while critically injured.

    Hughes's Defence Counsel told the court that he believed his client was genuinely remorseful for what happened.

    He said that Hughes knew that he did something that was "terribly wrong", despite the comments attributed to him in the immediate aftermath, when he would have been "out of his mind" on drink and drugs.

    The court heard Hughes had 74 previous convictions, mostly for road traffic and public order offences, with only one being for an assault.


    What recent court judgements have made you shake your head in disbelief?

    Is sentencing in assault/murder/rape cases too lax? 79 votes

    Yes, definitely
    0%
    No, they're about right
    100%
    de5p0i1erGazbada_bingspatchcokenmcInfiniWibbsMickbhatrickpatrickirishproduceEvd-BurnerGreyfoxxtal191TabnabsVarikDublin Spurodyssey06Captain ChaosrainbowtroutCee-Jay-Cee 79 votes


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    McGregor fan....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,107 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    What a useless ****.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭Jamemid


    There needs to be a sentencing panel deciding length of punishment,not just down to one person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    People don't seem to understand that Judges when sentencing are confined to legislation which sets out penalty limits and are also restricted by court of Appeal decisions. Judges don't just have a free hand that public think they have

    If a sentence is deemed unduly lenient the Dpp will appeal it

    If you think sentences are too soft lobby your td for a change in the legislation.. Judges apply the law, they don't make it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,584 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    No, they're about right
    McCrack wrote: »
    People don't seem to understand that Judges when sentencing are confined to legislation which sets out penalty limits and are also restricted by court of Appeal decisions. Judges don't just have a free hand that public think they have

    If a sentence is deemed unduly lenient the Dpp will appeal it

    If you think sentences are too soft lobby your td for a change in the legislation.. Judges apply the law, they don't make it


    Maybe they should have.


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  • Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would guess judges are under pressure from the severely over stretched prison service as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,549 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    No, they're about right
    There has been some movement on this, you've the Judicial Council Bill.

    Which could be called the After Hours bill, covers insurance payouts, sentencing guidelines (right now most just have a max and no min), and misconduct hearings for Judges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Varik wrote: »
    There has been some movement on this, you've the Judicial Council Bill.

    Which could be called the After Hours bill, covers insurance payouts, sentencing guidelines (right now most just have a max and no min), and misconduct hearings for Judges.

    Could you imagine if After Hours ran the country? 7 year old shoplifters who stole a Roy of the Rovers bar from Maxol would have their hands lopped off Saudi Arabia style.

    NO MERCY FOR SHOPLIFTING SCUM. 30 LASHES FOR THEIR PARENTS TOO


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,535 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    No, they're about right
    Aegir wrote: »
    I would guess judges are under pressure from the severely over stretched prison service as well.

    Possibly, but they are supposed to be passing sentence based on the evidence in front of them, not how crowded the cells are in Mountjoy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    No, they're about right
    Possibly, but they are supposed to be passing sentence based on the evidence in front of them, not how crowded the cells are in Mountjoy.

    Absolutely. It should be up to the government to respond to pressures on the prison system by building more of them, not up to judges to facilitate an under resourcing of the prison system by being lenient in their sentencing.


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  • Posts: 15,055 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Could you imagine if After Hours ran the country? 7 year old shoplifters who stole a Roy of the Rovers bar from Maxol would have their hands lopped off Saudi Arabia style.

    NO MERCY FOR SHOPLIFTING SCUM. 30 LASHES FOR THEIR PARENTS TOO




    And in a generation's time, we wouldn't be overrun with scum like we are now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,303 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    i dont get the hysteria over these and other judgements.
    they were made for various reasons best known to the over paid over protected judges this country is filled with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,542 ✭✭✭Dante7


    McCrack wrote: »
    People don't seem to understand that Judges when sentencing are confined to legislation which sets out penalty limits and are also restricted by court of Appeal decisions. Judges don't just have a free hand that public think they have

    If a sentence is deemed unduly lenient the Dpp will appeal it

    If you think sentences are too soft lobby your td for a change in the legislation.. Judges apply the law, they don't make it

    Nonsense. The maximum allowable sentence for manslaughter is life imprisonment. Judges in these cases decide not to impose these harsh sentences due to previous example cases, where lenient sentences were imposed by - other Judges. The laws are there. The sentences are just not imposed by these gob****es.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    And in a generation's time, we wouldn't be overrun with scum like we are now.

    Scum. SCUM. Off with their little fingers and toes.

    Feed their parents to the pigs. SCUUUUUUUM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Dante7 wrote: »
    Nonsense. The maximum allowable sentence for manslaughter is life imprisonment. Judges in these cases decide not to impose these harsh sentences due to previous example cases, where lenient sentences were imposed by - other Judges. The laws are there. The sentences are just not imposed by these gob****es.

    Well obviously not when the penalty for murder is life but manslaughter is not as culpable as murder and life Imprisonment for the crime of manslaughter would ever only be considered in the most unusual case or with particular facts and where there is a not guilty plea

    You should read up on the principles of sentencing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    AH should be judge and jury for all crime.

    Also, we need to have the death penalty back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,609 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Looked like an accident. He hit his head as he fell.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,585 ✭✭✭✭Collie D


    kneemos wrote: »
    Looked like an accident. He hit his head as he fell.

    I’d be more disgusted by him preventing an ambulance being called and making no effort to help than the actual punch and result.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    No, they're about right
    McCrack wrote: »
    People don't seem to understand that Judges when sentencing are confined to legislation which sets out penalty limits and are also restricted by court of Appeal decisions. Judges don't just have a free hand that public think they have

    If a sentence is deemed unduly lenient the Dpp will appeal it

    If you think sentences are too soft lobby your td for a change in the legislation.. Judges apply the law, they don't make it

    Every time this happens or is discussed the legislature is blaimed.

    in fact (as you admit) courts influence laws and in particular sentencing. And legislators can only overcome that by mandating exact sentences, as in life for murder, and I presume people don’t want that for manslaughter.

    This judge in fact went fairly high. Here’s the stats for 2018.

    In terms of sentencing for manslaughter, 47% were sentenced between two to five years, 47% between five to ten years, and 4% over 10 years.

    The maximum alllowable sentence under the legislation is life. The minimum is a fine.

    Maybe the Dail should legislate for a minimum sentence for manslaughter but there’s a reason not to have one. Say an argument breaks out in an old folks home, one old chap hits the other and because of previous medical conditions the second guy collapses and dies. Mandating a minimum sentence for that - putting an octogenarian in jail for 10 years - wouldn’t make sense.

    The problem in Ireland isn’t the laws but the application of them by the courts. They had a wide range of options, up to life, but made about 5 years the precedent. Anything higher than average can be appealed for unfairness.

    To overcome that we would need a new category for the octogenarian fight (death by assault) and make manslaughter mandatory but knowing the Irish courts they would refuse to convict most people for manslaughter.

    Christ if murder didn’t have mandatory life (as recommended by the law reform commission) sentencing there would drop to 5 years or so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭McCrack


    That’s not true of common law systems where in fact (as you admit) courts influence laws and sentencing.

    Yes however the starting and most fundamental point is the penalty range which the legislature sets, not judges and then the principles of sentencing are applied along with previous decisions.. Sentencing judges can only work within the law


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,609 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Collie D wrote: »
    I’d be more disgusted by him preventing an ambulance being called and making no effort to help than the actual punch and result.

    Hindering medical assistance is a crime I think. Probably would have got off a lot lighter if he'd called an ambulance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,680 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    8 years is a long stretch in prison in fairness


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    No, they're about right
    McCrack wrote: »
    Yes however the starting and most fundamental point is the penalty range which the legislature sets, not judges and then the principles of sentencing are applied along with previous decisions.. Sentencing judges can only work within the law

    The maximum is life. It was up to judges to apply those longer sentences. They didn’t abd have set their own precedent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,609 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    The maximum is life. It was up to judges to apply those longer sentences. They didn’t abd have set their own precedent.

    Why would you give life for an accident?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,420 ✭✭✭✭sligojoek


    What pi$$es me off is the fact that he was given credit for pleading guilty.

    There was never anyone else in the frame.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    No, they're about right
    McCrack wrote: »
    Well obviously not when the penalty for murder is life but manslaughter is not as culpable as murder and life Imprisonment for the crime of manslaughter would ever only be considered in the most unusual case or with particular facts and where there is a not guilty plea

    You should read up on the principles of sentencing

    There is a large difference between 4/5 years and life. Maybe the taking of a life should have higher sentencing guidelines.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,317 ✭✭✭Dublin Spur


    No, they're about right
    SICKENING

    The focus needs to be more on punishment and public safety rather than rehab.
    That means long sentences - minimum 20 years for stuff like this.
    This knacker should be in a cell for the rest of his life in my opinion - but he won't sadly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    No, they're about right
    kneemos wrote: »
    Why would you give life for an accident?

    I didn’t say I would. Read what I said. The maximum in the legislation is life. I was responding to someone who blamed politicans.

    Many jurisdictions would consider the fact that he stopped the ambulance pretty serious and might bring a murder charge. In Ireland however murder charges are rare.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,864 ✭✭✭touts


    No, they're about right
    If judges regularly imposed the maximum sentence then there would be less business for the justice industry. That's the core problem in the system. Judges, barristers, solicitors etc make more money if there are more criminals on the street committing crimes so they have a financial incentive not to send people to jail.

    The answer is quite simple. A three strike rule (but a sensible one not the break three windows get life in prison they tried in the US). On your third conviction you lose the right to the leniency that a caring society grants to people who make a mistake. On that third conviction the judge loses any discretion to apply a reduced sentence. The criminal is given the maximum sentence for that and any future crimes without the option for parole or early release. Also after three convictions criminals lose the right to bail for the fourth or subsequent charges after their release from jail.

    Fool is once shame on you. Fool us twice shame on us but we'll give you another chance. Fool us a third time.......


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,317 ✭✭✭Dublin Spur


    No, they're about right
    Why do we (the citizens) never get the opportunity to shape the kind of sentencing we would like to see.
    Surely in any fair society, it should be up to the citizens to decide the type of sentencing we would like to see in our country.

    There should be referendums on subjects like consecutive or concurrent sentences, capital punishment, a Life sentence meaning Life etc....

    Surely the guidelines for sentencing should be based on what the majority of the citizens would like to see?

    And if we opt for the softer options then so bit it, but at least we had our say.


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