Off licence closing times - should they be restricted from selling past 10pm?

gimli2112 · 19-06-2019 4:35pm

I tried buying booze recently on a bank holiday not even a religious one and was told I couldn't until something like midday. I thought we got rid of that rule around the same time we gave up on christianity. It's like I'm still living in the 1990s.

odyssey06 · 19-06-2019 4:56pm

gimli2112 wrote: »

I tried buying booze recently on a bank holiday not even a religious one and was told I couldn't until something like midday. I thought we got rid of that rule around the same time we gave up on christianity. It's like I'm still living in the 1990s.

That was either the staff \ manager or their till system being too dumb to distinguish the different holidays of Sundays, Patrick's Day and ordinary public holidays.
They can legally sell alcohol on a public holiday at 1030.

CelticRambler · 19-06-2019 4:59pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Plenty of continental countries limit sale of alcohol and some like Germany limit Sunday opening times of shops.

True enough. Here in France, if you haven't bought your 5l box of wine by 11h45 on a Sunday morning, the shops will be closed and you'll have to go a village fête somewhere to get your booze. And they'll be selling it on the strength of a "licence" that they got by dropping a form off at the local town hall saying "we'll be selling alcohol from 10am till 2am on Saturday and Sunday next ; let us know if you object." And there'll be children there till 2am too.

The longer I spend outside of Ireland, the more the Irish relationship with alcohol - on the side of both consumption and regulation - seems completely messed up, and no amount of tax or time-restriction is going to change the culture.

tcawley29 · 19-06-2019 6:37pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

That was either the staff \ manager or their till system being too dumb to distinguish the different holidays of Sundays, Patrick's Day and ordinary public holidays.
They can legally sell alcohol on a public holiday at 1030.

I used to work for a till provider.
Usually it is whatever is configured by the manager which prevents the normal operators from doing anything else.
Are you sure based on the public holiday at 10:30 thing? I know we always got a load of calls over the holidays to get the timing changed for the day in particular.

odyssey06 · 19-06-2019 6:55pm

tcawley29 wrote: »

I used to work for a till provider.
Usually it is whatever is configured by the manager which prevents the normal operators from doing anything else.
Are you sure based on the public holiday at 10:30 thing? I know we always got a load of calls over the holidays to get the timing changed for the day in particular.

Only St Patrick's Day should have same hours as a Sunday.
As public holidays usually fall on a Monday, 1030 opening hours apply.

It's summarised here:
https://vfipubs.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/TRADING-HOURS-KNOW-THE-LAW-1.pdf

Full text here:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/act/31/section/10/enacted/en/index.html

It does seem to be a common mis-conception but there is no legislation prohibiting selling alcohol between 1030 - 1230 on mornings of public holidays, except St Patricks Day - at least none I can find.

There might be a special exemption for Sunday if it falls on 23rd or 24th December, that alcohol can be sold from 1030, but I'm still trying to figure out if that is pubs only. Update, seems to apply to off licence sales also:
https://centra.ie/beat-the-queue/terms-and-conditions

Chancer3001 · 19-06-2019 7:15pm

The amount of times I've wanted to buy booze and just missed the deadline meaning I couldn't is quite high.

Terrible for me.

Fantastic for public health costs down the line

odyssey06 · 19-06-2019 7:26pm

Chancer3001 wrote: »

The amount of times I've wanted to buy booze and just missed the deadline meaning I couldn't is quite high.
Terrible for me. Fantastic for public health costs down the line

Not really. If it did send you to an early grave think of all the pension money, long term chronic prescription meds and nursing home costs you'd have saved the gubberment; whilst also enriching their coffers with all the lovely excise.

jippo nolan · 19-06-2019 7:44pm

Jimmy McGill wrote: »

So people don't drink before mass

What about midnight mass?

odyssey06 · 19-06-2019 7:47pm

jippo nolan wrote: »

What about midnight mass?

Isn't that why it's not at midnight anymore... mass needed to start before the pubs closed...

goose2005 · 19-06-2019 8:22pm

Balanadan wrote: »

What about people who get up early on a Sunday morning to do their shopping and have to make a separate trip to buy alcohol after 12:30?

Shouldn't they be at Mass anyway?

(or whatever ridiculous nonsense it is that Protestants get up to)

decky1 · 19-06-2019 8:34pm

this is a great country, you can buy any drug you want 24/7 yet you can't buy a can of beer, was in a large supermarket one sunday morning and thought i'd get a few can's while i was there got to the checkout at 6 minutes to 12 midday and was told in his best polish voice 'No alcohol till 12 o clock after pleading with him he just kept saying the same thing by this time it's 3 minutes to 12 still no go, WTF would it have really mattered to anyone that i got a few cans at 11.57.Great country indeed.

dxhound2005 · 19-06-2019 8:41pm

decky1 wrote: »

this is a great country, you can buy any drug you want 24/7 yet you can't buy a can of beer, was in a large supermarket one sunday morning and thought i'd get a few can's while i was there got to the checkout at 6 minutes to 12 midday and was told in his best polish voice 'No alcohol till 12 o clock after pleading with him he just kept saying the same thing by this time it's 3 minutes to 12 still no go, WTF would it have really mattered to anyone that i got a few cans at 11.57.Great country indeed.

You could have been a Government Inspector for all he knew. The shop would be closed down if they were caught.

goose2005 · 19-06-2019 8:42pm

decky1 wrote: »

this is a great country, you can buy any drug you want 24/7 yet you can't buy a can of beer, was in a large supermarket one sunday morning and thought i'd get a few can's while i was there got to the checkout at 6 minutes to 12 midday and was told in his best polish voice 'No alcohol till 12 o clock after pleading with him he just kept saying the same thing by this time it's 3 minutes to 12 still no go, WTF would it have really mattered to anyone that i got a few cans at 11.57.Great country indeed.

he should have made you wait until 12.30!

joeysoap · 19-06-2019 8:51pm

Dermot Ahern should have considered doing a lot more when he was minister than
1) banning alcohol sales from off licenses after 10 pm
2) banning the sale of alcohol until 12.30 on sundays
3) signing blasphemy into law ( or whatever he did that had to undone by referendum).

Reducing legal costs

But of course he was never going to do that,

themandan6611 · 19-06-2019 9:08pm

decky1 wrote: »

this is a great country, you can buy any drug you want 24/7 yet you can't buy a can of beer, was in a large supermarket one sunday morning and thought i'd get a few can's while i was there got to the checkout at 6 minutes to 12 midday and was told in his best polish voice 'No alcohol till 12 o clock after pleading with him he just kept saying the same thing by this time it's 3 minutes to 12 still no go, WTF would it have really mattered to anyone that i got a few cans at 11.57.Great country indeed.

you most definitely can buy cans of beer 24/7

YFlyer · 19-06-2019 9:41pm

themandan6611 wrote: »

you most definitely can buy cans of beer 24/7

Legally?

simongurnick · 20-06-2019 2:30am

Limiting the hours of sale will not reduce consumption. Education will. 24/7 sales and let people live their bloody.lives.

Weltsmertz · 20-06-2019 3:05am

After reading through four pages I will be the only one to say it.
Reducing the hours of availability for the purchase of alcohol is an effective way of reducing consumption for problem drinkers
It works.
Alcohol can be purchased in advance and stored. However many heavy drinkers are unable to do so. They buy it and drink it. There is then the temptation and the need to buy more later in the evening. If it only available until 10pm they have to buy it before then. Or go to a pub alone which they may not want to do if they are already drunk. Either way it puts a barrier in the way of a problem drinker.
Not insurmountable obstacles but enough to lead to reduced alcohol drinking for those that should be drinking less
All those arguing against it here do not understand the psychology and motivations of heavy drinkers struggling with their addiction.
So. An effective and sensible law that reduces consumption of alcohol by heavy drinkers.

simongurnick · 20-06-2019 3:10am

Weltsmertz wrote: »

After reading through four pages I will be the only one to say it.
Reducing the hours of availability for the purchase of alcohol is an effective way of reducing consumption for problem drinkers
It works.
Alcohol can be purchased in advance and stored. However many heavy drinkers are unable to do so. They buy it and drink it. There is then the temptation and the need to buy more later in the evening. If it only available until 10pm they have to buy it before then. Or go to a pub which they a at not want to do. Either way it puts a barrier in the way of a problem drinker. Buy in advance and store buy earlier,. Or go to pub
Not insurmountable obstacles but enough to lead to reduced alcohol drinking for those that should be drinking less
All those arguing against it here do not understand the psychology and motivations of heavy drinkers struggling with their addiction.
So. An effective and sensible law that should be kept.

I dont buy it. If I'm a serious alcoholic and i cant get offie then I'm heading to the pub. Or i sweat it out for the night then go bananas the next day. And even if it does prevent a few heavy drinkers, what about the vast majority that control themselves but want to have a drink whenever they choose fit?

Weltsmertz · 20-06-2019 3:58am

simongurnick wrote: »

I dont buy it. If I'm a serious alcoholic and i cant get offie then I'm heading to the pub. Or i sweat it out for the night then go bananas the next day. And even if it does prevent a few heavy drinkers, what about the vast majority that control themselves but want to have a drink whenever they choose fit?

You could go to the pub. But how many middle class female or even male drinkers would go to the pub alone particularly if already drunk on a weeknight..

If as you say you can "control yourself* then you should have the ability to store alcohol. Many problem drinkers do not.

mikemac2 · 20-06-2019 4:16am

decky1 wrote: »

this is a great country, you can buy any drug you want 24/7 yet you can't buy a can of beer, was in a large supermarket one sunday morning and thought i'd get a few can's while i was there got to the checkout at 6 minutes to 12 midday and was told in his best polish voice 'No alcohol till 12 o clock after pleading with him he just kept saying the same thing by this time it's 3 minutes to 12 still no go, WTF would it have really mattered to anyone that i got a few cans at 11.57.Great country indeed.

12:30 on a Sunday

Large supermarket - sure even if he tried he could not put it through the till. The computer says no

Wanderer78 · 20-06-2019 4:24am

mikemac2 wrote:

Large supermarket - sure even if he tried he could not put it through the till. The computer says no

Not only does the computer say no, the poor chap could have been sacked if he could have processed the transaction

CelticRambler · 20-06-2019 6:10am

Weltsmertz wrote: »

Reducing the hours of availability for the purchase of alcohol is an effective way of reducing consumption for problem drinkers
It works.
Alcohol can be purchased in advance and stored. However many heavy drinkers are unable to do so. They buy it and drink it.

And there, in two phrases, is the worst of the Irish attitude to alcohol: lumping all the "problem drinkers" in with the off-their-heads buy-it-and-drink-it out-of-control addicts. All the problem drinkers I know are perfectly capable of keeping a good stock of alcohol in store, at home in full view of the rest of the family. The "problem" is that what's considered normal in Ireland is way out of line with other countries, not unlike obesity in the States versus other countries.

If "reduced availability" is an effective technique for controlling alcohol addiction, why not ban it completely in the same way as cocaine?

Victor · 20-06-2019 6:42am

Assetbacked wrote: »

There is a concert roaring near my home this evening and, the beautiful evening it is, I wondered about those at the concert when they leave and if they wanted to purchase some beer or whatever to have a few post-concert drinks at home or where ever else.

You want thousands of people in your neighbourhood buying cans at the same time?

Maybe they could plan ahead and leave their cans at home?

Pkiernan · 20-06-2019 7:40am

Balanadan wrote: »

What about people who get up early on a Sunday morning to do their shopping and have to make a separate trip to buy alcohol after 12:30?

They're usually working people, and therefore not of importance to our lefty politicians.

Balanadan · 20-06-2019 7:54am

Weltsmertz wrote: »

You could go to the pub. But how many middle class female or even male drinkers would go to the pub alone particularly if already drunk on a weeknight..

If as you say you can "control yourself* then you should have the ability to store alcohol. Many problem drinkers do not.

What about the responsible drinkers who don't wish to store alcohol at home in the presence of children?

d8491prj5boyvg · 20-06-2019 8:18am

Assetbacked wrote: »

There is a concert roaring near my home this evening and, the beautiful evening it is, I wondered about those at the concert when they leave and if they wanted to purchase some beer or whatever to have a few post-concert drinks at home or where ever else. But of course, they cannot buy alcohol in shops as it is past 10pm.

From 2008, the ban has applied, I recall it being 11/11:30pm before the law was changed. Reading a news article from the time, I think the reasons for the restricted openings are not really applicable. Therefore, it should be possible to sell and buy alcohol in a shop past 10pm.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/off-licences-to-close-at-10pm-under-new-laws-68630.html

We have had changes to the good Friday pub closure laws/bylaws, now is it time to change the shop selling restriction?

The change was to help pubs not for society

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 8:33am

Emberly Small Mussel wrote: »

The change was to help pubs not for society

Exactly... You can get a drink in the subsidised Dail bar at 11pm but not in Tesco. One rule for them and their mates, one for the rest of us.

And FG are just as much in hock to the publicans lobby as FF were.

meeeeh · 20-06-2019 9:03am

Balanadan wrote: »

What about the responsible drinkers who don't wish to store alcohol at home in the presence of children?

I think that points to a very unhealthy attitude to alcohol. My kids see me drink small glass of wine with dinner (0,125l), they don't see me drunk. If you feel so guilty about your consumption of alcohol you have to hide it from kids, then you are not a responsible drinker.

There is really unhealthy attitude to alcohol here. People are hiding their drinking from kids but when kids go to bed they have to have access to cheap alcohol almost on tap. Not in pub because it's too expensive and others would see their drinking habits but at home where they can hide their habit from their families and everyone else.

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 9:26am

meeeeh wrote: »

There is really unhealthy attitude to alcohol here. People are hiding their drinking from kids but when kids go to bed they have to have access to cheap alcohol almost on tap. Not in pub because it's too expensive and others would see their drinking habits but at home where they can hide their habit from their families and everyone else.

Or they could be responsible and not want to leave alcohol where it could be accessed by minors.

The alcohol isn't cheap in this country, anywhere. You keep using that phrase as a way of demonising people who drink at home. You seem to have swallowed the publicans guff about people who drink at home all being alcos. As if there are no alcos in pubs. It's fake news and a cheap debating tactic.

meeeeh · 20-06-2019 9:33am

odyssey06 wrote: »

The alcohol isn't cheap in this country, anywhere. You keep using that phrase as a way of demonising people who drink at home. You seem to have swallowed the publicans guff about people who drink at home. It's fake news and a cheap debating tactic. It's obvious and it's lame.

No Donald, it's not fake news. More and more middle aged women are suffering from liver failure and they tend to be home drinkers.

https://www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/surge-in-irish-women-with-liver-disease-caused-by-alcohol-34932021.html

https://alcoholireland.ie/facts/women-and-alcohol/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/sharp-rise-in-number-of-women-dying-from-alcohol-related-illness-1.2742383

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 9:38am

meeeeh wrote: »

No Donald, it's not fake news. More and more middle aged women are suffering from liver failure and they tend to be home drinkers.

Is it only alcohol drunk at home that causes liver issues?
No liver issues for people drinking in pubs?

I see absolutely nothing here that warrants earlier closing for off licences versus standard pub hours. Or why alcohol can't be bought at 7am in a supermarket any day of the week.

meeeeh · 20-06-2019 9:43am

odyssey06 wrote: »

Is it only alcohol drunk at home that causes liver issues?
No liver issues for people drinking in pubs?

I see absolutely nothing here that warrants earlier closing for off licences versus standard pub hours. Or why alcohol can't be bought at 7am in a supermarket any day of the week.

Hidden drinking is one of the main issues. Hidden drinking is usually done at home, especially by women. People drink more often and main change is among women. You can ignore the facts, you can pretend it's pub owners out to get you (a lot of them started offering food with drinks which is better), you can pretend it remnants of Catholic Ireland but the fact is more women are dying from drink related causes and it's not because they frequent pubs during the week.

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 9:50am

meeeeh wrote: »

Hidden drinking is one of the main issues. Hidden drinking is usually done at home, especially by women. People drink more often and main change is among women. You can ignore the facts, you can pretend it's pub owners out to get you (a lot of them started offering food with drinks which is better), you can pretend it remnants of Catholic Ireland but the fact is more women are dying from drink related causes and it's not because they frequent pubs during the week.

Even if it were true, and I'm not saying it is, so what?
If they want to drink themselves into an early grave, it is not my concern or society's, it is their life to throw away.
And I don't think the restricted hours are going to stop anyone from doing that.

Any 'costs' incurred due to public health treatments are more than likely going to be offset by excise duties, 'savings' on nursing home care, pension payments, social supports etc etc

I see nothing here which warrants the imposition of general restricted hours limitations on the responsible drinkers.

Balanadan · 20-06-2019 9:56am

meeeeh wrote: »

Hidden drinking is one of the main issues. Hidden drinking is usually done at home, especially by women. People drink more often and main change is among women. You can ignore the facts, you can pretend it's pub owners out to get you (a lot of them started offering food with drinks which is better), you can pretend it remnants of Catholic Ireland but the fact is more women are dying from drink related causes and it's not because they frequent pubs during the week.

We should ban pictures, cushions and memes with slogans like "It's gin o'clock" or "It's wine o'clock" or "I just renewed my gin membership". It encourages alcoholism amongst women.

reg114 · 20-06-2019 9:57am

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

It's crap because it only suits people who work 9-5. More and more people work 'irregular' hours. There's no logical reason why alcohol can't be bought until at least 12am.

It was the publicans lobbying the government to take a chunk out of the off licence sales. 10 years on and they are still at it with the minimum pricing.

Yes it was purely to with placating the powerful vintners lobby and had zero to do with public health. That being said, if I need to go to a bank I do it during opening hours which involves planning ahead, why cant people who want to buy alcohol for consumption after 10 pm, plan ahead and buy it when the off licenses are open .. they are open for 10 hours a day.

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 9:58am

Balanadan wrote: »

We should ban pictures, cushions and memes with slogans like "It's gin o'clock" or "It's wine o'clock" or "I just renewed my gin membership". It encourages alcoholism amongst women.

An even more obvious objection is that the restricted hours were brought in in 2008, so after a decade of operation, they would have to be declared a failure on public health grounds - but not on the grounds of publican payoffs and favours to politicians!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/off-licences-to-close-at-10pm-under-new-laws-68630.html

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 9:58am

reg114 wrote: »

Yes it was purely to with placating the powerful vintners lobby and had zero to do with public health. That being said, if I need to go to a bank I do it during opening hours which involves planning ahead, why cant people who want to buy alcohol for consumption after 10 pm, plan ahead and buy it when the off licenses are open .. they are open for 10 hours a day.

Bank opening hours are a joke. Don't even get me started. It's like they don't want customers who have busy jobs.

meeeeh · 20-06-2019 9:59am

odyssey06 wrote: »

Even if it were true, and I'm not saying it is, so what?
If they want to drink themselves into an early grave, it is not my concern or society's, it is their life to throw away.
And I don't think the restricted hours are going to stop anyone from doing that.

Any 'costs' incurred due to public health treatments are more than likely going to be offset by excise duties, 'savings' on nursing home care, pension payments, social supports etc etc

I see nothing here which warrants the imposition of general restricted hours limitations on the responsible drinkers.

So you think that excessive drinking affects only the person drinking. Tell that to my mum who spent years caring for my grandfather and changing colostomy bag because his internal organs changed into mush. Tell that to her cusin who was climbing out if the house through the window avoiding violent drunk father. But yes as long as you can buy as much cheap plonk as you want there are no issues around alcohol.

meeeeh · 20-06-2019 10:00am

Balanadan wrote: »

We should ban pictures, cushions and memes with slogans like "It's gin o'clock" or "It's wine o'clock" or "I just renewed my gin membership". It encourages alcoholism amongst women.

They should be banned on basis of good taste.

20-06-2019 10:07am

There is no cheap alcohol. Go to Europe to see how much cheap alcohol really costs. It's one thing that keeps coming up in these threads and it drives me nuts.

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 10:09am

meeeeh wrote: »

So you think that excessive drinking affects only the person drinking. Tell that to my mum who spent years caring for my grandfather and changing colostomy bag because his internal organs changed into mush. Tell that to her cusin who was climbing out if the house through the window avoiding violent drunk father. But yes as long as you can buy as much cheap plonk as you want there are no issues around alcohol.

It's not cheap. It doesn't have to be plonk. You seem incapable of talking about alcohol without prefixing it with the words cheap. As I said it's a cheap debating tactic and if you keep doing it I will keep calling you on it as it's untrue and an attempt to demonise home drinkers. Or all drinkers.
As if it is only alcohol sold in off licences that can cause problems.

I haven't said there are no issues with alcohol, but looking at relationships with alcohol in other countries and in the past, I know they are not going to be solved by initiatives such as these which inconvenience the general population for no gain.
Especially initiatives such as these which have the fingerprints of the Vintners Federation all over them.

None of the problems you have listed have anything to do with off licence opening hours.
The restricted hours since 2008 for off licences and supermarkets have served no useful purpose for society other than lining publicans pockets and should be scrapped immediately.

meeeeh · 20-06-2019 10:11am

odyssey06 wrote: »

None of the problems you have listed have anything to do with off licence opening hours.
The restricted hours since 2008 for off licences and supermarkets have served no useful purpose for society other than lining publicans pockets and should be scrapped immediately.

Why? And btw it means employees are not harrassed in the middle of the night by drunk customers.

....... · 20-06-2019 10:15am

meeeeh wrote: »

Why? And btw it means employees are not harrassed in the middle of the night by drunk customers.

Employees get harrassed in the middle of the day by drunk customers!

And junkies.

Balanadan · 20-06-2019 10:15am

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no cheap alcohol. Go to Europe to see how much cheap alcohol really costs. It's one thing that keeps coming up in these threads and it drives me nuts.

There's loads of cheap alcohol in Europe m8. Loads of it. M8.

odyssey06 · 20-06-2019 10:15am

meeeeh wrote: »

Why? And btw it means employees are not harrassed in the middle of the night by drunk customers.

You're quoting recent articles which you claim suggest an increase in problem home drinking... we've had the restricted hours since 2008. Logical conclusion, the hours did not help. If you are concerned about such problems, look elsewhere for remedial solutions.

Employees shouldn't be serving drunk customers whether in a pub or off licence, and any outlet selling alcohol regardless of hours needs to have procedures in place for such scenarios, whether it happens at 7am, 2pm, 9pm or 11pm.
Any establishment is of course free to set their own hours for sales within the legal boundaries.

20-06-2019 10:17am

Balanadan wrote: »

There's loads of cheap alcohol in Europe m8. Loads of it. M8.

Thats what I said.

ohnonotgmail · 20-06-2019 10:17am

Balanadan wrote: »

There's loads of cheap alcohol in Europe m8. Loads of it. M8.

that is the point they were making. so-called "cheap" alcohol here is nowhere close to being cheap by european standards.

....... · 20-06-2019 10:19am

meeeeh wrote: »

I think that points to a very unhealthy attitude to alcohol. My kids see me drink small glass of wine with dinner (0,125l), they don't see me drunk. If you feel so guilty about your consumption of alcohol you have to hide it from kids, then you are not a responsible drinker.

There is really unhealthy attitude to alcohol here. People are hiding their drinking from kids but when kids go to bed they have to have access to cheap alcohol almost on tap. Not in pub because it's too expensive and others would see their drinking habits but at home where they can hide their habit from their families and everyone else.

I think you have an unhealthy attitude to alcohol tbh.

You assume that because people dont want to be nannied by the state that they have a drink problem.

You refer to alcohol as "cheap" to make it look bad that people drink at home. I drink VERY expensive gin at home. I will pay 60 euro for a bottle of gin to drink at home. So you can lose the "cheap" references because you are just using them to paint a picture of drunks sucking meths out of a brown paper bag on the street when the vast majority of drinkers do NOT have a problem with alcohol.

20-06-2019 10:21am

meeeeh wrote: »

Why? And btw it means employees are not harrassed in the middle of the night by drunk customers.

I've been working in a supermarket off licence since before the 10pm rule came in. In all that time I've only ever dealt with two maybe three drunk people. All in the early afternoon. I get more annoyed being harrassed by sober morons, (cries of retail!).

Off licence closing times - should they be restricted from selling past 10pm?

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