Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

Gimme A Pound · 19-06-2019 01:29PM

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

It was only first year though, they may have been considering it. Not taking her out of school doesn't mean passivity.

I'd be all for removing a child from a school they're being bullied in though (people who say the kid should just tough it out really haven't a clue).

Grayson · 19-06-2019 01:29PM

Necro wrote: »

Christ.

Right I'm out folks, I'm off to Outer Siberia with the family till the kids are 18.

That's absolutely horrifying and something I'd almost be sure goes on in many many schools around the country.

We should have classes about this in school. Most people would have no idea how to teach children about sex, consent, equality, bullying and crap like that. You throw technology in and there's not a hope. These classes should start when the children are younger, and of course be age appropriate. But they need to start young because trying to say this to a group of 15 year olds isn't gong to work.

Jimbob1977 · 19-06-2019 01:29PM

The Kriegels brought Ana to Ireland for a better life away from the poverty and deprivation of Russia.

The poor girl experienced a nightmare over here.

I feel so sorry for Mr. and Mrs. Kriegel

AudreyHepburn · 19-06-2019 01:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I read that one of the boys under interview asked for his mother to leave the room. Sounded like he was about to tell more but didn't want to in front of her. We are too soft allowing parents to hold their kids hands through interviews anyway

I completely agree and I also think it’s the worst possible thing you could do if you’re trying to get a child or young person to admit to wrongdoing.

What better way to get them to clam up and refuse to speak than to have Mum or Dad sitting next to them.

Penn · 19-06-2019 01:30PM

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Hard to believe 13 year old boys would be as cool after the event. I know Boy A made out he was attacked and he might have been a bit shaken but even still...

Boy B must have known something terrible happened. He either saw it start or he saw it all.

Boy A did it.

It would take a really strange coincidence for Boy B to be someone who just so happened to not be phased by an attack he saw, had Boy B only been asked to bring Ana there, not knowing about what was going to happen.

How likely would it be that a 13 year old boy would be unphased from seeing a vicious attack on a now missing girl?

I'd say it's easier to act unphased after it if you knew before it that it was going to happen.

Necro · 19-06-2019 01:33PM

Grayson wrote: »

We should have classes about this in school. Most people would have no idea how to teach children about sex, consent, equality, bullying and crap like that. You throw technology in and there's not a hope. These classes should start when the children are younger, and of course be age appropriate. But they need to start young because trying to say this to a group of 15 year olds isn't gong to work.

At 15 they likely know of more ways than those teaching them to do to send or access inappropriate stuff.

Should really be starting from primary school, I agree. Department of Education are still stuck in the 80s in that respect though.

nehemiah · 19-06-2019 01:34PM

droidman123 wrote: »

Watched a documentary recently about the usa olympic gymnastics team doctor, he sexually abused young girls over a period of years,he got 240 years,a minimum of 40 years before he can apply for parole (rightfully so) these 2 guys will be back in society in probably 8-10 years,theres murdering scum only serving 10 years or do every week for horrendous crimes,including murder.the liberals in this country are slowly but surely destroying it.the various ministers for justice over the years have a lot to answer for,but of course they wont.the laws in this country badly needs overhauling,no more namby pamby approach.wont happen in my lifetime unfortunately and the scum will continue to breed and run riot

Which liberal Ministers for Justice would you be referring to?

Ireland has had a centrist/right-wing government for almost the entire history of the state. In the UK the Tories have been in power more than 50% of the time since WWII. France and Germany are also centrist/centre-right.

It's easy to blame the leftie boogieman, but unfortunately it's a figment of your imagination.

Strazdas · 19-06-2019 01:35PM

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

That may well have been on the cards. It seems possible / likely she might have changed school within a year or so. There's no evidence they weren't good parents to Ana. Her mother texted her immediately when she heard she had gone off with B and insisted she return home.

InTheShadows · 19-06-2019 01:37PM

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

Jesus Christ

Necro · 19-06-2019 01:37PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I completely agree and I also think it’s the worst possible thing you could do if you’re trying to get a child or young person to admit to wrongdoing.

What better way to get them to clam up and refuse to speak than to have Mum or Dad sitting next to them.

Yeah but it's the law here, so procedure by the Gardaí was followed correctly.

It's protection for them as much as the offenders tbh. The little sh1tes they deal with on a regular basis would probably have no qualms making up claims about inappropriate behaviour from the Guards.

El_Bee · 19-06-2019 01:37PM

nehemiah wrote: »

Which liberal Ministers for Justice would you be referring to?

Ireland has had a centrist/right-wing government for almost the entire history of the state. In the UK the Tories have been in power more than 50% of the time since WWII. France and Germany are also centrist/centre-right.

It's easy to blame the leftie boogieman, but unfortunately it's a figment of your imagination.

Economically right, but socially very very liberal; pro divorce, pro abortion, pro gay marriage. pro mass immigration (not saying any of those things are bad before you all lynch me, but definitely not right wing positions).

Mardy Bum · 19-06-2019 01:38PM

Psychopath A & Sociopath B.

Very little could be done in school for students like this.

80sChild · 19-06-2019 01:39PM

Necro wrote: »

Yeah but it's the law here, so procedure by the Gardaí was followed correctly.

It's protection for them as much as the offenders tbh. The little sh1tes they deal with on a regular basis would probably have no qualms making up claims about inappropriate behaviour from the Guards.

I think solicitor was present also IIRC? All is recorded anyway so Guards have protection there. I do agree with poster who said imminent confession/elaboration could have been sacrificed in this moment.

Gimme A Pound · 19-06-2019 01:40PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I’m not saying we rule out altogether. I’m saying that using it to excuse what the two boys did is not dealing with problem.

There is clearly some underlying mental issues for both boys that were either missed completely, ignored or perhaps seen but not understood for what they were. That’s of far more concern to me than that they might have seen a violent image or clip somewhere.

Reasons aren't excuses. The boys alone are responsible for the murder, and are messed up individuals.

However it is not making an excuse to consider the elements that may have helped shape them/what they did: the possible acceptance of dehumanisation of Ana via the bullying culture, the possible powerlessness of the school when aware of bullying on its premises (and after the experience of someone I know recently - a lot in common with poor Ana - I don't buy anymore that schools are helpless), the possible crap parenting, the easy access to very dark porn which didn't kill her but appeared to inspire the assault and murder methods.

nehemiah · 19-06-2019 01:43PM

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

How many would have committed other crimes on their release?

26% apparently. The average for all released prisoners is 62%.

Based on 2010 data.

https://www.irishprisons.ie/images/pdf/recidivismstudyss2.pdf

Sunflower 27 · 19-06-2019 01:45PM

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

Hard to believe 13 year old boys would be as cool after the event. I know Boy A made out he was attacked and he might have been a bit shaken but even still...

Boy B must have known something terrible happened. He either saw it start or he saw it all.

Boy A did it.

It would take a really strange coincidence for Boy B to be someone who just so happened to not be phased by an attack he saw, had Boy B only been asked to bring Ana there, not knowing about what was going to happen.

How likely would it be that a 13 year old boy would be unphased from seeing a vicious attack on a now missing girl?

If he had been watching a lot of gruesome stuff on the internet, maybe not phased at all, possibly excited to see it for real.

nehemiah · 19-06-2019 01:46PM

El_Bee wrote: »

Economically right, but socially very very liberal; pro divorce, pro abortion, pro gay marriage. pro mass immigration (not saying any of those things are bad before you all lynch me, but definitely not right wing positions).

3 out of those 4 were the result of a referendum voted on by the people.

Nerdlingr · 19-06-2019 01:46PM

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

And yet here you are judging and punishing them on here.
Somehow, I dont think they're looking for your forgiveness either.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 19-06-2019 01:50PM

80sChild wrote: »

I think solicitor was present also IIRC? All is recorded anyway so Guards have protection there. I do agree with poster who said imminent confession/elaboration could have been sacrificed in this moment.

If his mother had left the room and he'd confessed his defence would have tried to have it ruled out, said that that created an intimidating atmosphere and hence a false confession. Those rules are there for good reasons and the interviewing Gardai did a pretty bloody impressive job doing things correctly and getting it done.

facehugger99 · 19-06-2019 01:50PM

Aisling_Dublin wrote: »

I can't wrap my head around why the Ana's parents never took her out of the school seeing clearly that she was suffering, why didn't they take her out after the first ever bullying incident, after the death threats or even after one if the teachers confided in them about how gravely concerned she was.... Take her out to safety, home school, miss a year, find tutors, or no tutors, a vocational school maybe, anything to save her. Can't forgive them for their passivity, although they are of course their own judges and punishers now.

Aren't they lucky to have you to judge them.

19-06-2019 01:51PM

Think I heard Leo V on the radio saying they're going to clamp down on porn or something....how about clamping down on bullying? You know like have teachers actually do something instead of turning a blind eye?

Necro · 19-06-2019 01:52PM

80sChild wrote:

I think solicitor was present also IIRC? All is recorded anyway so Guards have protection there. I do agree with poster who said imminent confession/elaboration could have been sacrificed in this moment.

Maybe but that's the law so any divergence from that would have any defence lawyer worth their salt having it thrown out as inadmissible.

rekdtangle · 19-06-2019 01:55PM

Have seen the names and photos of boy A & B. Strangely if you google Boy A's name all the Ana newspaper articles come up. How does that happen if they aren't named in any of the articles?

RIP Ana

tayto lover · 19-06-2019 01:56PM

Boy B ain’t getting off. He’s guilty and the jury made the right decision.
He’s where he should be ie behind lock and key.

El_Bee · 19-06-2019 01:56PM

nehemiah wrote: »

3 out of those 4 were the result of a referendum voted on by the people.

But received full support from all mainstream parties, FF & FG included.

Grayson · 19-06-2019 01:57PM

Melanie Tangy Appendix wrote: »

If his mother had left the room and he'd confessed his defence would have tried to have it ruled out, said that that created an intimidating atmosphere and hence a false confession. Those rules are there for good reasons and the interviewing Gardai did a pretty bloody impressive job doing things correctly and getting it done.

I mentioned the central park 5 earlier in the thread. Some of them were 13 or 14. they were questioned by police for hours without a guardian there.

The rules about how interviews are conducted with children are there for a reason.

Necro · 19-06-2019 01:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Think I heard Leo V on the radio saying they're going to clamp down on porn or something....how about clamping down on bullying? You know like have teachers actually do something instead of turning a blind eye?

Bullying these days isn't just the typical tough guy in the class pushing you down in the mud or beating the sh1t out of you though.

It's exclusion from social groups and activities.
It's withering looks from your peers if you try to speak to them.
It's online a lot of the time and away from school grounds.
It's through social media and different apps, groups sharing stupid pictures and videos of X or Y in silly situations.

I'm not sure there are enough laws on the planet to cover the different forms that bullying takes these days.

19-06-2019 01:58PM

Melanie Tangy Appendix wrote: »

80sChild wrote: »

I think solicitor was present also IIRC? All is recorded anyway so Guards have protection there. I do agree with poster who said imminent confession/elaboration could have been sacrificed in this moment.

If his mother had left the room and he'd confessed his defence would have tried to have it ruled out, said that that created an intimidating atmosphere and hence a false confession. Those rules are there for good reasons and the interviewing Gardai did a pretty bloody impressive job doing things correctly and getting it done.

Should being arrested and interviewed for murder be a walk in the park? Forcing a confession is totally different to what we are talking about here. It's all on camera and recorded. The rules should change about parents being there 100% of the time. We lost probably the best chance of ever knowing exactly what happened because of pc over the top nonsense.

Ulysses Gaze · 19-06-2019 01:59PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Psychopath A & Sociopath B.

Very little could be done in school for students like this.

Little point in trying to treat them either.
Neither is a treatable condition.

jimmycrackcorm · 19-06-2019 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Think I heard Leo V on the radio saying they're going to clamp down on porn or something....how about clamping down on bullying? You know like have teachers actually do something instead of turning a blind eye?

My kid was bullied at school. We didn't know they missed a third of the school year, instead going to the park and sitting alone in the cold and rain instead of going in to face being bullied.

None of the several subject teachers passed a blind eye that they were missing so much roll call. We only found out when tusla contacted us at the end of the year to find it why were such bad parents to not send then to school.

The teachers don't give a crap they're just there to complain about their pay and enjoy their time off in summer

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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