Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

SirGerryAdams · 19-06-2019 12:58PM

What bugs me is not knowing.

Not knowing what exactly happened.

- Was Boy B aware of what Boy A was going to do?

- What exactly did Boy A plan to do?

- Did Boy B bring her to the room and she was immediately attacked with weapons or did Boy A walk into the room with her like Boy B said?

- Did he plan on killing her?

- Did he kill her and then sexually assault her or the other way round?

- Was Boy B there watching it all or did he leave? Or did he assist?

Gimme A Pound · 19-06-2019 12:59PM

Woke Hogan wrote: »

So this discussion should just be sober "RIP Ana" posts peppered with the occasional outburst from some troglodyte who thinks we should bring back the death penalty? And their views cannot be challenged whatsoever because it looks like that the person challenging them doesn't care about what happened to Ana? Or what is it you want exactly?

Was responding to that Observer account specifically, but to answer you, no. Challenging the execution posts can be done in a reasoned manner like Stu has done above, rather than "I'm disgusted by a thing you typed about two murderers and you've a low IQ and wah wah", pretending as if the anger is over something minor.

Necro · 19-06-2019 12:59PM

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Yeah there is so much "ah shur all teens and pre teens are at it" by people who did same when that young, but they're "all" really really not.

That's what makes the waving away of the extreme porn issue annoying. No it isn't the standard for a kid that young to be getting off on stuff that extreme and dark.

Wasn't there plans to introduce some sort of licensing to access those sites bandied about before? I know there's always a way around that but surely in the light of cases like this something should be considered.

I'm not a prude or anything, I've watched porn on the web many times - but the fact that it's free to access by absolutely anyone is a bit weird in all honesty.

....... · 19-06-2019 12:59PM

SirGerryAdams wrote: »

What bugs me is not knowing.

Not knowing what exactly happened.

- Was Boy B aware of what Boy A was going to do?

- What exactly did Boy A plan to do?

- Did Boy B bring her to the room and she was immediately attacked with weapons or did Boy A walk into the room with her like Boy B said?

- Did he plan on killing her?

- Did he kill her and then sexually assault her or the other way round?

- Was Boy B there watching it all or did he leave? Or did he assist?

Everything you have asked has been extensively reported on!

Bigbagofcans · 19-06-2019 01:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

From reading of the case notes, you get the impression that remorse over what they did to Ana is non-existent, the only remorse is over the fact that they were caught. So I hope they spend the rest of their lives haunted if not by what they did to Ana, by what they did to themselves and the fact they were caught.

Wherever they go, whatever years they serve or don't behind bars, may their own minds be a prison.

The sad reality is that since they have no remorse, they will not be haunted by what they did to Ana. They will be released in their twenties with the freedom to move away and start their lives again.

KrustyUCC · 19-06-2019 01:00PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

It's ridiculous that they will legally have anonymity into adulthood, for life actually.

Why should they be afforded that?

Their photos were shared on FB earlier

I'm sure plenty of people saw those post before they were taken down

dickangel · 19-06-2019 01:00PM

Melanie Tangy Appendix wrote: »

As for the Pulse thing, in the article it said they used it to find his address, that combined with the fact that he'd never been in court before led me to infer it was an adult at the same address who was on the system but I guess it could have been him, for something minor enough not to require a court appearance though.

The parents only knew Boy B's first name and didn't know the parents. So I think it was Boy B on the system for something pretty insignificant to the whole case.

Woke Hogan · 19-06-2019 01:01PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Any chance you’d actually condemn the crime? Did you keep refreshing the pages until you could virtue signal?

As for your supposed three figure IQ that’s not in evidence in your dull dull life of rural idiocy or your online textual flatulence.

Condemning the crime for the sole purpose of impressing internet strangers would be virtue signalling in my view.

This isn't Bebo, I don't have sit here and puke out "rip ana so sad xxx" over and over again to show my concern.

Sunflower 27 · 19-06-2019 01:01PM

Strazdas wrote: »

One other thing I picked up in the article (brilliantly written) is that the state pathologist believes A launched a violent physical attack on Ana the moment she arrived inside the abandoned house - not some slowly escalating incident that somehow got out of hand. That would strongly suggest premeditation and that B must have had an inkling this was the plan all along.

She was 5'8. She wasn't a small child. The coward wanted to knock her out or at least maim her so they had the upper hand.

We don't know how tall/big the boys were but 5'8" at 13 is very unusual.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 19-06-2019 01:02PM

....... wrote: »

I dunno - I think its just realistic to expect that kids of 11 might be sexting.

Or accessing pornography.

Not all are, but its not a tiny minority either. Its worse to pretend it isnt happening at all.

It happens, so we need to deal with that reality.

In what way? Acceptance or prohibition?

I trend towards the latter but not sure how it can be enforced.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-06-2019 01:02PM

petrolcan wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that you never did anything that could be construed as bullying when a teenager?

The point I'm making is that all teens did/do it, even without thinking. Give them a criminal record for it and see what happens. It'd be like giving everyone a 2:1 degree for writing their name on a bit of paper.

I picked on someone as a teenager (yes, I hugely regret it) but I don’t think that everyone did just because I did. Many of my contemporaries never did.

blackwhite · 19-06-2019 01:02PM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I also wonder did any adults ever think Boy A was a more than just a bit of an oddball? Or why Boy B was on the garda Pulse system?

There’s a few pointed items in the long Irish Times piece about the home environment Boy B was raised in. Certainly the implication that it played a part in some of the life choices he made

Standman · 19-06-2019 01:02PM

tuxy wrote: »

Here's a list of countries with the highest rates of capital punishment, which of these utopias should we base our justice system on?

China
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Pakistan
Egypt
United States
Somalia
Bangladesh
Malaysia

I'd happily live under some backwards dictatorship as long as my thirst for vengeance is satisfied. I'm outraged and therefore nothing else matters, you see.

Cryptopagan · 19-06-2019 01:03PM

mynamejeff wrote: »

you can also be killed for being a murdering raping animal or drug dealing piece of sh1t.

i guess its all about finding a level.

its a shame that there will never be a capital punishment law in Ireland again

its not about punishment or reform or fixing social wrongs , its about protecting innocents from those who would victimise them for lack of consequences

There are countries with the death penalty with much worse problems with violent crime than Ireland, so it obviously doesn’t work as a deterrent. And it’s vanishingly rare for anyone convicted of murder to go on to murder anyone else. It neither deters nor protects the public, so what purpose would it serve?

GreeBo · 19-06-2019 01:03PM

Omackeral wrote: »

You can literally be killed for being gay in some of those countries listed.

Since we are listing irrelevant facts.
A lot of those countries have great summer weather.

Necro · 19-06-2019 01:03PM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I also wonder did any adults ever think Boy A was a more than just a bit of an oddball? Or why Boy B was on the garda Pulse system?

There's any amount of reasons Boy B could have been on Pulse. A passenger in a traffic accident as one example. Issues in the home being another.

He wouldn't necessarily have had to have a prior record for being recorded on the system.

....... · 19-06-2019 01:04PM

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

In what way? Acceptance or prohibition?

I trend towards the latter but not sure how it can be enforced.

Neither exactly.

Education. You educate them about the dangers. But not in the creepy way the nuns educated us about the dangers of sex when we were nippers.

In a properly age appropriate manner. And you also educate parents on what is an appropriate level of device access/contact/control etc for a child.

dickangel · 19-06-2019 01:04PM

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

She was 5'8. She wasn't a small child. The coward wanted to knock her out or at least maim her so they had the upper hand.

We don't know how tall/big the boys were but 5'8" at 13 is very unusual.

Boy A was supposedly tall for his age, and skilled in martial arts.

Former Observer · 19-06-2019 01:04PM

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Nowhere did he say anything to condone execution of the boys. He said the anger is understandable, which it is. Not everyone is all cool and indifferent like you.

Not the brightest spark are you. Your whole post is litany of muddled thinking.

I didn't copy the original post in its entirety because nothing substantive was said by that poster and I didn't feel like clogging up the thread with a totally redundant post a second time. Pretty much like what I'm going to do with yours. And I reckon that poster can fight his own battles little man.

SirGerryAdams · 19-06-2019 01:05PM

....... wrote: »

Everything you have asked has been extensively reported on!

It's not fact though...

Boy B had changed his story so many times. I still don't think he told the truth anyways. For example at first he claimed he wasn't in the house, then he said he was. Then he said he left when he saw Boy A flip her over but none of that is fact.

Cryptopagan · 19-06-2019 01:05PM

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

The sad reality is that since they have no remorse, they will not be haunted by what they did to Ana. They will be released in their twenties with the freedom to move away and start their lives again.

Dunno about that. There are strict parole conditions attached to released murderers and they can be sent back to prison for breaking them. I don’t think you can just go and relocate to another country to get away from that.

joe40 · 19-06-2019 01:05PM

....... wrote: »

I dunno - I think its just realistic to expect that kids of 11 might be sexting.

Or accessing pornography.

Not all are, but its not a tiny minority either. Its worse to pretend it isnt happening at all.

It happens, so we need to deal with that reality.

Of course it is better to deal with the reality that this happens, especially among vulnerable teens.
And it is better to assume that they will come into contact with porn at an early age.

But the reality is that the vast majority of our teens are doing fine, they are able to handle social media in a responsible way and are forming healthy relationships.

By all means teach about the dangers of the internet and cyber bullying it was just the 75% figure I find hard to behave.

I work in a large sec school with range of socio economic backgrounds and issues of under age sexting have come up it is still quite rare.

simongurnick · 19-06-2019 01:06PM

A lot of talk on here is around internet usage, but that wasn't used in court. What was discussed in the case is the question of one of the boys being a goth and involvement in satanic culture. I wonder how much of that stuff was at play here or were these two scumbags evil since birth?

Gimme A Pound · 19-06-2019 01:06PM

....... wrote: »

I dunno - I think its just realistic to expect that kids of 11 might be sexting.

Or accessing pornography.

Not all are, but its not a tiny minority either. Its worse to pretend it isnt happening at all.

It happens, so we need to deal with that reality.

Oh I don't dispute that. It's "ah shur they're all at it leave them to it" attitude I'm referring to.

Necro wrote: »

Wasn't there plans to introduce some sort of licensing to access those sites bandied about before? I know there's always a way around that but surely in the light of cases like this something should be considered.

I'm not a prude or anything, I've watched porn on the web many times - but the fact that it's free to access by absolutely anyone is a bit weird in all honesty.

People lost their sh1t over that licencing thing. All very lady doth protest too much.

You shouldn't have to say you're not a prude. Of course you're not. Objecting to children who were born in 2004/5 having easy access to extremely dark porn a few years back has nothing to do with being a prude.

If an adult showed it to them it would be considered sexual abuse. So if it's damaging in one context, then it's damaging in others.

Gadgetman496 · 19-06-2019 01:06PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Their photos were shared on FB earlier

I'm sure plenty of people saw those post before they were taken down

I know that & it won't be long before they become household names one way or another.

My point is that I don't see why the law should afford them anonymity for life.

....... · 19-06-2019 01:06PM

joe40 wrote: »

Of course it is better to deal with the reality that this happens, especially among vulnerable teens.
And it is better to assume that they will come into contact with porn at an early age.

But the reality is that the vast majority of our teens are doing fine, they are able to handle social media in a responsible way and are forming healthy relationships.

By all means teach about the dangers of the internet and cyber bullying it was just the 75% figure I find hard to behave.

I work in a large sec school with range of socio economic backgrounds and issues of under age sexting have come up it is still quite rare.

I elaborated on the 74% above - btw I wasnt at the meeting where the figure was mentioned, just relaying what my colleague told me.

(who then went home and checked his kids phone and lol and behold found dick pics).

Woke Hogan · 19-06-2019 01:07PM

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Was responding to that Observer account specifically, but to answer you, no. Challenging the execution posts can be done in a reasoned manner like Stu has done above, rather than "I'm disgusted by a thing you typed about two murderers and you've a low IQ and wah wah", pretending as if the anger is over something minor.

As far as I am concerned, promoting the death penalty is the height of ignorance and the suggestion of a moron. It is an unreasonable suggestion and it doesn't deserve a reasoned response.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 19-06-2019 01:07PM

PressRun wrote: »

Never read or listened to the details of the last moments of her life, but read a bit about who Ana was as a person. Talented and sensitive were two word that came to mind. A girl that probably would have flourished once outside the toxic school environment. But also could not escape how sad and lonely she seemed to be, and how much she craved friendship.
A conversation needs to be had about how tough it is for these kids, the relentless bullying that can turn violent, the mental anguish a lot of them seem to be going through.
What a horrible thing those boys did to a girl so full of potential and her family.

Yeah.

This case struck a chord with me because whilst not exactly friendless as a child and teen, charges of weirdness followed me around my whole formative years. I was very socially awkward and was not handling well the turbulence at home. Friends fell away as secondary school wore on and I was pretty much on my own at the end. But in college, I was grand. Gained confidence, made friends and being weird was not considered a fatal flaw.

If Ana had got the chance to tough out her teenage years, everything would likely have been okay. I’m sad she’ll never feel that flush of excitement at making friends and seeing the world and its possibilities open up in front of her.

SirGerryAdams · 19-06-2019 01:08PM

Would guards have checked for text messages on the phones? Or facebook messages or connections?

I don't think there was anything said about those?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 19-06-2019 01:08PM

dickangel wrote: »

The parents only knew Boy B's first name and didn't know the parents. So I think it was Boy B on the system for something pretty insignificant to the whole case.

No, the Kriegels found out his surname from social media, I'm not sure how one would go about finding anyone on a database with just a first name. But I'd say you're right he himself was on there for something minor. Not too familiar with it but I assume a caution for vandalism or something like that would be logged there.

Ana Kriegel - Boys A & B found guilty [Mod: Do NOT post identifying information]

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