Garda Apology

Stop moaning ffs · 18-06-2019 08:18AM

I don’t think there’s any scapegoating goihg on. Rather people being made to face up to the past. And learn not to repeat it. Look over at the US and it seems to be headed back down that road. Hopefully we learn from it and revelations like this are important in helping us stop that from happening.

Beechwoodspark · 18-06-2019 08:23AM

Anyone want to have a guess how much she will receive if this damages cases goes ahead ?

Maybe someone can advise but can’t see the state robustly defending it?

It’d be PR nightmare for Leo and co in the run up to an election.

The purse is going to be opened for this case looks like.

You’d have to Wonder did that play a role in her “going public” after all these years too

18-06-2019 08:24AM

been said a dozen times- as far as this case goes, that's all been done

anything further is.....hmmm.

Nermal · 18-06-2019 08:38AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Anyone want to have a guess how much she will receive if this damages cases goes ahead ?

Maybe someone can advise but can’t see the state robustly defending it?

It’d be PR nightmare for Leo and co in the run up to an election.

The purse is going to be opened for this case looks like.

The state purse is open for everyone who can make the front page with a sob story. It will be our downfall.

One eyed Jack · 18-06-2019 08:47AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I don’t think there’s any scapegoating goihg on. Rather people being made to face up to the past. And learn not to repeat it. Look over at the US and it seems to be headed back down that road. Hopefully we learn from it and revelations like this are important in helping us stop that from happening.

What you’re attempting to do though is scapegoating. People being made to face up to the past? Learn not to repeat it? As far as most people are concerned, these things happened in the past, to someone else, they’re not responsible for the actions of someone else, so what have they to face up to, and what have they to learn from?

These “revelations” won’t stop individuals from doing what they believe they’ll get away with, and they won’t make anyone more aware of anything they weren’t already fully aware of. Majella Moynihan was fully aware of the circumstances in which she found herself, and fully aware of the potential consequences of her actions. As an officer of AGS she was more aware than most people that she was jeopardising her own career. She chose that. She feels she was a victim because she was caught and others weren’t, and she feels she was treated unfairly because she wasn’t treated the same as other women who didn’t behave the same way she did.

I’m not sure what looking at the US is supposed to mean either tbh, heading back down what road?

STB. · 18-06-2019 08:53AM

judeboy101 wrote: »

She knowingly had sex outside marriage and an illegitimate child with a fellow recruit , in a time where rightly or wrongly, would bring disrepute to the office of garda. What did she think would happen?

Perhaps we should continue to live in the stone age like yourself pal.

Disrepute, phffff.

Mrsmum · 18-06-2019 08:53AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I don’t think there’s any scapegoating goihg on. Rather people being made to face up to the past. And learn not to repeat it. Look over at the US and it seems to be headed back down that road. Hopefully we learn from it and revelations like this are important in helping us stop that from happening.

Of course there is scapegoating. People are not facing up to the past by saying "look over there, it was them that did it, shame on them". It wasn't them alone. It was them and us (our parents and grandparents). They were us and we were them. Ireland (us) treated women disgracefully, not any one section, all of it.

While you're at it, write me a letter of apology and I'll write one to myself also on behalf of my forefathers because I was forced to live life a certain way according to rules that were not according to the way I wanted to live.

hawkelady · 18-06-2019 08:57AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Anyone want to have a guess how much she will receive if this damages cases goes ahead ?

Maybe someone can advise but can’t see the state robustly defending it?

It’d be PR nightmare for Leo and co in the run up to an election.

The purse is going to be opened for this case looks like.

You’d have to Wonder did that play a role in her “going public” after all these years too

Off course it played a role. She wants money

Stop moaning ffs · 18-06-2019 09:02AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course there is scapegoating. People are not facing up to the past by saying "look over there, it was them that did it, shame on them". It wasn't them alone. It was them and us (our parents and grandparents). They were us and we were them. Ireland (us) treated women disgracefully, not any one section, all of it.

While you're at it, write me a letter of apology and I'll write one to myself also on behalf of my forefathers because I was forced to live life a certain way according to rules that were not according to the way I wanted to live.

Of course we did. Nobody’s denying that. You have that other poster saying I’m blaming the church(I don’t know how but ok). It was an ugly modest shared by w lot of people and institutions at the time. Wouldn’t go as far as to say everyone I was in shorts in the 80s but a vast majority of people for sure.
And it’s still important it’s raised And addressed as in this case.

Stop moaning ffs · 18-06-2019 09:02AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What you’re attempting to do though is scapegoating. People being made to face up to the past? Learn not to repeat it? As far as most people are concerned, these things happened in the past, to someone else, they’re not responsible for the actions of someone else, so what have they to face up to, and what have they to learn from?

These “revelations” won’t stop individuals from doing what they believe they’ll get away with, and they won’t make anyone more aware of anything they weren’t already fully aware of. Majella Moynihan was fully aware of the circumstances in which she found herself, and fully aware of the potential consequences of her actions. As an officer of AGS she was more aware than most people that she was jeopardising her own career. She chose that. She feels she was a victim because she was caught and others weren’t, and she feels she was treated unfairly because she wasn’t treated the same as other women who didn’t behave the same way she did.

I’m not sure what looking at the US is supposed to mean either tbh, heading back down what road?

So it’s Majellas own fault?
Right so. I’ll leave you to back that up.

18-06-2019 09:07AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So it’s Majellas own fault?
Right so. I’ll leave you to back that up.

She knew the rules. She took risks. She decided that the father would have no say in his child’s future. She was responsible for her own actions. Only her.

For the sake of her fragile health, she needs take a step back.

18-06-2019 09:11AM

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Kudos to the Protestant employers. Guinness, and so on. Never hear anything but good about them.

Not so good about CS and other Government employers though as evidenced in the thread.

What a bizarre thing to bring into this thread. Try being a Catholic in 1935 and looking for a senior management job in Guinness, Jameson or any other distillery, or the vast majority of insurance companies and banks in Ireland and see how you get on. That discrimination, just because it was against the vast majority of the population of Ireland, shouldn't have the privilege of collective amnesia either.

As for this case, and all the other ones - this case has many similarities to what happened the teacher Eileen Flynn in Wexford in 1982 - it would help greatly if the state's funding for historical research began to be invested into studying the social history of all these marginalised and demonised people of post-independence Ireland, from the industrial schools to the mother and child homes to the laundries. Instead, they keep funding professional historians to do more of this safe, bullshít elite politics and wars.

Imagine how our understanding of Ireland would change if we had an army of researchers paid to investigate social history for a change?

One eyed Jack · 18-06-2019 09:15AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

So it’s Majellas own fault?
Right so. I’ll leave you to back that up.

It’s her own fault that she found herself in the circumstances she was in at the time, yes. Nothing in her account of the events suggests that she was forced to have sex against her will. She was responsible for her actions, in the same way as everyone else involved was responsible for their actions. She chose to reject the father of the child, yet still wants to maintain she was a victim because he didn’t give her the support she wanted from him. She wants to portray herself as the victim in all of this when the reality is that she is ultimately responsible for her circumstances, and in spite of your earlier claim that her child was taken from her illegally, he wasn’t. She chose to place her child for adoption, and understandably came to regret her decision.

That doesn’t give her the excuse to assuage her guilt by trying to make herself out to be a helpless victim who was manipulated and mistreated by everyone else.

Mrsmum · 18-06-2019 09:16AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What a bizarre thing to bring into this thread. Try being a Catholic in 1935 and looking for a senior management job in Guinness, Jameson or any other distillery, or the vast majority of insurance companies and banks in Ireland and see how you get on. That discrimination, just because it was against the vast majority of the population of Ireland, shouldn't have the privilege of collective amnesia either.

As for this case, and all the other ones - this case has many similarities to what happened the teacher Eileen Flynn in Wexford in 1982 - it would help greatly if the state's funding for historical research began to be invested into studying the social history of all these marginalised and demonised people of post-independence Ireland, from the industrial schools to the mother and child homes to the laundries. Instead, they keep funding professional historians to do more of this safe, bullshít elite politics and wars.

Imagine how our understanding of Ireland would change if we had an army of researchers paid to investigate social history for a change?

Could we cope with the horror of what would come out !

Stop moaning ffs · 18-06-2019 09:20AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course there is scapegoating. People are not facing up to the past by saying "look over there, it was them that did it, shame on them". It wasn't them alone. It was them and us (our parents and grandparents). They were us and we were them. Ireland (us) treated women disgracefully, not any one section, all of it.

While you're at it, write me a letter of apology and I'll write one to myself also on behalf of my forefathers because I was forced to live life a certain way according to rules that were not according to the way I wanted to live.

It seems that outdated judgmental and bad minded view of women is still alive and well if you look up a few posts.

Yurt2 · 18-06-2019 09:20AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

. She chose to place her child for adoption, and understandably came to regret her decision.

She was harassed and bullied into giving up her child, by members of a state institution in concert with the church with the very real threat of losing her livelihood hanging over her.

We should come up with a new rule, we ship all the posters denigrating this woman and minimising her suffering to Rockall. They can recreate the conditions of 1950s - 1980s Ireland where 'the rules are the rules' , and we can all live in peace.

18-06-2019 09:21AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It seems that outdated udgemental and bad minded view of women is still alive and well if you look up a few posts.

it seems that you and a few others cannot or will not make a distinction between majellas agency in her own problems under a very different but known system and supporting that system being in place today.

and as ive said it must be ten times now people have made the point to you

18-06-2019 09:23AM

Yurt! wrote: »

She was harassed and bullied into giving up her child, by members of a state institution in concert with the church with the very real threat of losing her livelihood hanging over her.

We should come up with a new rule, we ship all the posters denigrating this woman and minimising her suffering to Rockall. They can recreate the conditions of 1950s - 1980s Ireland where 'the rules are the rules' , and we can all live in peace.

who is the "we" that come up with this rule

would we have to sign up to it as part of the terms and conditions of our employment

would we be offered rockall or resignation from that employment

behave will ye

Stop moaning ffs · 18-06-2019 09:23AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

it seems that you and a few others cannot or will not make a distinction between majellas agency in her own problems under a very different but known system and supporting that system being in place today.

and as ive said it must be ten times now people have made the point to you

Then and now?
The files relating to her case have magically disappeared from GHQ.
Very different system me hole

18-06-2019 09:27AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Then and now?
The files relating to her case have magically disappeared from GHQ.
Very different system me hole

very different system of society. ive little enough interest in gotcha debating if im honest

we've one source on the files disappearing, id not say a disinterested source.

if people knew the filing systems of the public service as a whole theyd be more amazed anything was ever found

Yurt2 · 18-06-2019 09:27AM

Deleted User wrote: »

who is the "we" that come up with this rule

would we have to sign up to it as part of the terms and conditions of our employment

would we be offered rockall or resignation from that employment

behave will ye

Those would be the rules. Who cares if they are grounded in ethics or are indeed congruent with the legal framework.

Rules are rules as we have all learned from this thread. If they are inked on a page they are to be followed and interpreted by those with office as they see fit.

Now, do you have any special dietary requirements while on Rockall? I hope you like seafood.

One eyed Jack · 18-06-2019 09:30AM

Yurt! wrote: »

She was harassed and bullied into giving up her child, by members of a state institution in concert with the church with the very real threat of losing her livelihood hanging over her.

What do you mean “in concert with the Church”? She contacted the Catholic crisis pregnancy agency herself! Apparently had it not been for the Church she would have been fired.

We should come up with a new rule, we ship all the posters denigrating this woman and minimising her suffering to Rockall. They can recreate the conditions of 1950s - 1980s Ireland where 'the rules are the rules' , and we can all live in peace.

I have an even better idea - rather than rounding people up and shipping them off to some remote island against their will, you go, and set up your own little island just how you like it with the rules that suit you, or no rules, whatever, it’s your island.

Bannasidhe · 18-06-2019 09:30AM

boardise wrote: »

What a stupid comment -. Of course he's not . It's an analogy for heaven's sake.

It's a stupid analogy.

18-06-2019 09:32AM

Yurt! wrote: »

Those would be the rules. Who cares if they are grounded in ethics or are indeed congruent with the legal framework.

Rules are rules as we have all learned from this thread. If they are inked on a page they are to be followed and interpreted by those with office as they see fit.

Now, do you have any special dietary requirements while on Rockall? I hope you like seafood.

ive made relevant points, you've not addressed them

Yurt2 · 18-06-2019 09:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

ive made relevant points, you've not addressed them

No, you're dancing on the head of pin. Making out that a young woman who grew up in an industrial school and had no financial fall-back had good options in the face of the most powerful men in the Gardai attempting to pressure her into adoption or marriage (allegedly), all the while back-channel discussions were taking place with the most powerful Catholic official in the country.

Rules are rules - righty-oh

marieholmfan · 18-06-2019 09:41AM

This is not news. What is being concealed by the airwaves giving space to this discussion?

18-06-2019 09:53AM

Yurt! wrote: »

No, you're dancing on the head of pin. Making out that a young woman who grew up in an industrial school and had no financial fall-back had good options in the face of the most powerful men in the Gardai attempting to pressure her into adoption or marriage (allegedly), all the while back-channel discussions were taking place with the most powerful Catholic official in the country.

Rules are rules - righty-oh

never said good options

you're appealling to a 2019 audience on a purely emotional basis and are putting half a story forward without any reference to the agency of the woman involved.

im not going to make a smart comment about that being a dehumanising or bad feminism practice, but at the same time its transparent as an approach and repetition doesn't improve it.

Yurt2 · 18-06-2019 10:03AM

Deleted User wrote: »

never said good options

you're appealling to a 2019 audience on a purely emotional basis and are putting half a story forward without any reference to the agency of the woman involved.

im not going to make a smart comment about that being a dehumanising or bad feminism practice, but at the same time its transparent as an approach and repetition doesn't improve it.

Come off of it, what possible agency did this woman enjoy when we know the forces that were pitted against her on the threat of losing her job?

I'd have some sympathy for your point of view if we were having this discussion in 1984, then we could at least admit you were a man of your time. But you're trying to peddle this line in 2019, knowing what we know.

As far as I can discern, you're trying to say this woman shouldn't have had sex in the circumstances she was in, and the rules and culture of the time were just that; so she should have known better. Well, gold medal for you Captain Hindsight.

And what's more, you're slyly suggesting the Garda hierarchy at the time had no agency at the time themselves, they simply had to apply the opaque rules of 'discrediting the force' the way they did.

Newflash from 1985, this was a matter of controversy and debate back then too...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/intolerable-intrusion-the-1985-coverage-of-majella-moynihan-s-story-1.3928248

One eyed Jack · 18-06-2019 10:12AM

Yurt! wrote: »

No, you're dancing on the head of pin. Making out that a young woman who grew up in an industrial school and had no financial fall-back had good options in the face of the most powerful men in the Gardai attempting to pressure her into adoption or marriage (allegedly), all the while back-channel discussions were taking place with the most powerful Catholic official in the country.

Rules are rules - righty-oh

Yes, they are, and flouting them doesn’t make anyone a victim. Majella Moynihan was aware of the rules of AGS when she chose to join the force. She knew the esteem in which she would be held in her community. That all went tits up as a consequence of her choosing to believe that the same rules which applied to everyone in AGS, somehow didn’t apply to her. None of that has anything to do with her being educated in an industrial school. There were plenty of people educated in industrial schools who didn’t grow up to believe the law doesn’t apply to them.

She also chose to remain a member of AGS for another 15 years until she chose to leave. She lamented the fact she was the focus of media attention at the time, yet here she is again the focus of media attention claiming that she would be happy with a personal apology from the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice. She’s milking the victimhood IMO.

Yurt2 · 18-06-2019 10:14AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yes, they are, and flouting them doesn’t make anyone a victim. Majella Moynihan was aware of the rules of AGS when she chose to join the force. She knew the esteem in which she would be held in her community. That all went tits up as a consequence of her choosing to believe that the same rules which applied to everyone in AGS, somehow didn’t apply to her. None of that has anything to do with her being educated in an industrial school. There were plenty of people educated in industrial schools who didn’t grow up to believe the law doesn’t apply to them.

She also chose to remain a member of AGS for another 15 years until she chose to leave. She lamented the fact she was the focus of media attention at the time, yet here she is again the focus of media attention claiming that she would be happy with a personal apology from the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice. She’s milking the victimhood IMO.

Garda rules aren't the law. Crack open a book and get that into your head.

Garda Apology

Comments