Tenant refusing to move out

Dav010 · 10-06-2019 5:17am

TSQ wrote: »

Have read info in the link above and note that During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing.

Now, what if I am the part 4 tenant sharing with a licensee I have brought in to the house, but want to be in control of who lives with me?. Can I demand that my licensees are refused a tenancy, so as to keep the same rights as a live-in landlord who can get rid of a flatmate for any or no reason?

I would suspect the legal requirements placed on the Landlord would trump your request that they be denied.

antoinolachtnai · 10-06-2019 8:36am

Dav010 wrote: »

I would suspect the legal requirements placed on the Landlord would trump your request that they be denied.

I don’t think this is correct. The landlord may reasonably refuse. If the other tenants don’t want the licensee as a joint tenant then it is reasonable for the landlord to refuse.

It is arguable I suppose.

Dav010 · 10-06-2019 8:50am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don’t think this is correct. The landlord may reasonably refuse. If the other tenants don’t want the licensee as a joint tenant then it is reasonable for the landlord to refuse.

It is arguable I suppose.

The link Graham provided and the example therein seems to be pretty clear on this, the LL cannot unreasonably refuse the request, there is no mention of the lead tenants right to influence the LLs legal obligations.

Varik · 10-06-2019 9:07am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I don’t think this is correct. The landlord may reasonably refuse. If the other tenants don’t want the licensee as a joint tenant then it is reasonable for the landlord to refuse.

It is arguable I suppose.

Think it'd cover resonable, existing tenants are meant to have exclusive use of property which would change to joint with a 3rd party against their will not to mention they are now jointly and severally liable for the rent and damages.

They would have been paying full rent beforehand with probably a decent bit coming from sublet, but now they all have to agree to some breakdown of that rent. And that's if new tenants stop paying, they're all jointly liable.

The_Conductor · 10-06-2019 9:17am

TSQ wrote: »

Have read info in the link above and note that During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing.

Now, what if I am the part 4 tenant sharing with a licensee I have brought in to the house, but want to be in control of who lives with me?. Can I demand that my licensees are refused a tenancy, so as to keep the same rights as a live-in landlord who can get rid of a flatmate for any or no reason?

There is no Part 4 tenancy.
The OP- is an owner occupier.
The individual who is refusing to leave- is strictly a licensee- with no right to a tenancy of any type.
Even bringing up a part 4 tenancy- is murkying the water- no tenancy exists- because the OP is the owner of the property- and lives there- and is currently letting two rooms in his/her property.
If you re-read the thread- the OP came back and clarified the situation after their original post.

The OP is an owner-occupier.
The person who is refusing to leave- is a licensee living in a room in the OPs home.
The licencee is not entitled to any tenancy rights- the RTA does not apply- as it is within the OP's own home.

The RTA does not apply to such a situation (aka the rent-a-room scheme).
Even bringing it up- is wholly misundertanding the situation.

The_Conductor · 10-06-2019 9:41am

Blacktie. wrote: »

I am the owner and live in the property as well.

The OP is an owner occupier.

rightmove · 10-06-2019 10:14am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Did you even read the link you provided? Living with a landlord is a licencee situation.

If landlord was not living there but renting rooms individually would the tenant still be a licencee

The_Conductor · 10-06-2019 10:24am

rightmove wrote: »

If landlord was not living there but renting rooms individually would the tenant still be a licencee

That is not the situation though- the owner, who is not a landlord by the way, is living there, and letting two rooms to licencees.

Calling him a landlord- is also murkying the waters.

The OP is an owner occupier, the resident who has taken the room- is a licensee. The Residential Tenancies Act does not apply. The end.

rightmove · 10-06-2019 11:09am

The_Conductor wrote: »

That is not the situation though- the owner, who is not a landlord by the way, is living there, and letting two rooms to licencees.

Calling him a landlord- is also murkying the waters.

The OP is an owner occupier, the resident who has taken the room- is a licensee. The Residential Tenancies Act does not apply. The end.

Ok I know a lot of ppl renting out by the rooms but not living in the house so was just curious where they stand

Henry Ford III · 10-06-2019 11:14am

Why doesn't the owner just collect and remove the licensees stuff, and change the locks?

Blacktie. · 10-06-2019 11:32am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Why doesn't the owner just collect and remove the licensees stuff, and change the locks?

This is basically the plan on Friday. However since he has no plans on leaving I fully expect him to take off work and be there all day long. Locks will be changed however. Speaking of which if anyone has a locksmith recommendation around the Dublin area a PM would be welcome thanks.

J Mysterio · 10-06-2019 12:08pm

Tough situation to find yourself in all the same.

4 weeks to find alternative accommodation in Dublin is not easy, and I presume he is not rolling in it either as why else would he be living with an 'owner occupier' and one other. I would avoid a situation like that at all costs.

If you are working Mon- Fri, that only leaves you the evenings and weekends (never mind other commitments) to find something, and the weeks go by pretty fast.

Guy might feel pretty desperate. I see that his mention of 'talking to his lawyer' has set you against him. At the same time, it seems obvious the person does not have a lawyer and is uninformed. Probably was browsing Citizens information or something, and is confused.

Shame you can't have a heart to heart and come to an amicable agreement. You hold the balance of power, no need to stick the knife in?

Blacktie. · 10-06-2019 12:11pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Tough situation to find yourself in all the same.

4 weeks to find alternative accommodation in Dublin is not easy, and I presume he is not rolling in it either as why else would he be living with an 'owner occupier' and one other. I would avoid a situation like that at all costs.

If you are working Mon- Fri, that only leaves you the evenings and weekends (never mind other commitments) to find something, and the weeks go by pretty fast.

Guy might feel pretty desperate. I see that his mention of 'talking to his lawyer' has set you against him. At the same time, it seems obvious the person does not have a lawyer and is uninformed. Probably was browsing Citizens information or something, and is confused.

Shame you can't have a heart to heart and come to an amicable agreement. You hold the balance of power, no need to stick the knife in?

I offered an alternative solution that would have given him somewhere to say. He was unwilling to accommodate the compromise and that's when he brought up the lawyer and wanted written 6 weeks notice. That was the turning point.

Also he had 6 weeks notice not 4.

10-06-2019 12:12pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Tough situation to find yourself in all the same.

4 weeks to find alternative accommodation in Dublin is not easy, and I presume he is not rolling in it either as why else would he be living with an 'owner occupier' and one other. I would avoid a situation like that at all costs.

If you are working Mon- Fri, that only leaves you the evenings and weekends (never mind other commitments) to find something, and the weeks go by pretty fast.

Guy might feel pretty desperate. I see that his mention of 'talking to his lawyer' has set you against him. At the same time, it seems obvious the person does not have a lawyer and is uninformed. Probably was browsing Citizens information or something, and is confused.

Shame you can't have a heart to heart and come to an amicable agreement. You hold the balance of power, no need to stick the knife in?

The amicable solution his him moving out on the day he has been instructed to, anything less is unacceptable. It’s not the ops problem that it’s hard for him to find somewhere else.

The_Conductor · 10-06-2019 12:14pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

You hold the balance of power, no need to stick the knife in?

It is the OPs home.
He/she is entitled to live with whomsoever they choose.
It is not sticking the knife in- the OP gave the guy ample opportunity to take time out and find elsewhere to live.
I don't know why the OP wanted the two bedrooms back- he/she hasn't clarified- however, it is their prerogative- and to suggest that the OP is somehow 'sticking the knife in' by giving the person ample notice to leave- beggars belief.

If this was not an owner-occupied dwelling- it would be a different story- that is not the case though.

Aye Bosun · 10-06-2019 12:41pm

Hi op, just wanted to give you a little advise from someone who has been through the same recently.
You are an owner occupier, he is a licensee, he has zero rights in your home and as such you can ask him to leave with reasonable notice, which you have done with 6 weeks notice.
My advise to you in have all your ducks in row and not leave any course for him to come back at you.

1. The only legal route he can take is by taking a claim in the small claims court for retention of deposit, so regardless of any damage or outstanding bill do yourself a favour and return his deposit in full to prevent that course of action.
2. Return his deposit by either chq or postal order, where you'll be able to get record that it has been cashed in a bank. Do not return in cash!
3. Give him the whole of day to leave the house, if you said the 14th June, he has till midnight on the 14th to leave, so in your case don’t change the locks till Saturday morning.
4. Store his belongings in safe place and arrange for a witness to be there when he collects to avoid any accusations for theft etc.

Best of luck with all, **** time for you but you’re well within your rights. Feel free to pm if you’ve any questions!

Del2005 · 10-06-2019 12:47pm

Blacktie. wrote: »

This is basically the plan on Friday. However since he has no plans on leaving I fully expect him to take off work and be there all day long. Locks will be changed however. Speaking of which if anyone has a locksmith recommendation around the Dublin area a PM would be welcome thanks.

If you have Euro cylinder locks then you don't need a locksmith. You can replace them with a screw driver in a few minutes.

J Mysterio · 10-06-2019 1:49pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

It is the OPs home.
He/she is entitled to live with whomsoever they choose.
It is not sticking the knife in- the OP gave the guy ample opportunity to take time out and find elsewhere to live.
I don't know why the OP wanted the two bedrooms back- he/she hasn't clarified- however, it is their prerogative- and to suggest that the OP is somehow 'sticking the knife in' by giving the person ample notice to leave- beggars belief.

If this was not an owner-occupied dwelling- it would be a different story- that is not the case though.

I know it is the owners home. The owner invited people to live in it. I'm only suggesting that it can be difficult to find alternative accommodation in Dublin and if the OP could work with 'the licensee' to come to an amicable arrangement, that would be best.

The OP clarified he offered some help in this aspect, so fair play.

I know I'm going against the grain here, but was looking to provide a bit of balance to the argument.

10-06-2019 2:45pm

Balance is all well and good, but if someone turns around after week 5 of a 6-week notice threatening legal action, having given zero indication up until that point they were finding it difficult to move then you can balance your chequebook with a hotel bill at the end of the month, for all I care, because you won't be doing it in my gaff.

Give him a firm deadline. If he starts acting up, change that to 24hrs notice and tell him you'll not be refunding the deposit until after he's left and you have inspected the place.

Cuddlesworth · 10-06-2019 4:30pm

Del2005 wrote: »

If you have Euro cylinder locks then you don't need a locksmith. You can replace them with a screw driver in a few minutes.

1 screw, takes about 2-3 minutes. You would have to be nuts to pay for a locksmith in Ireland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9A915L_mlk

jlm29 · 10-06-2019 4:56pm

Your OP says you gave him verbal notice. Have you given anything in writing since? I’m not saying it changes things much really; but a text or an email now stating you still expect him gone by this Friday, as per your conversation might be no harm so you have some written proof

Claw Hammer · 10-06-2019 5:10pm

There is no need for written proof. The guy was asked to go in the same way as a hotel guest is asked to leave. Once he started talking about solicitors, I would have changed the lock there and then and told him he had 2 hours to get his stuff out of the house before i burnt it.

....... · 10-06-2019 5:28pm

The guy has absolutely no entitlement to stay on.

The OP was generous not only offering him 6 weeks notice but also offering him an alternative.

Del2005 · 10-06-2019 10:21pm

jlm29 wrote: »

Your OP says you gave him verbal notice. Have you given anything in writing since? I’m not saying it changes things much really; but a text or an email now stating you still expect him gone by this Friday, as per your conversation might be no harm so you have some written proof

The other licencee moving out is enough evidence of sufficient notice, not that it's necessary.

TSQ · 10-06-2019 10:50pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

There is no Part 4 tenancy.
The OP- is an owner occupier.
The individual who is refusing to leave- is strictly a licensee- with no right to a tenancy of any type.
Even bringing up a part 4 tenancy- is murkying the water- no tenancy exists- because the OP is the owner of the property- and lives there- and is currently letting two rooms in his/her property.
...."....

The OP is an owner-occupier.
The person who is refusing to leave- is a licensee living in a room in the OPs home.
The licencee is not entitled to any tenancy rights- the RTA does not apply- as it is within the OP's own home.

The RTA does not apply to such a situation (aka the rent-a-room scheme).
Even bringing it up- is wholly misundertanding the situation.

Yes, I am well aware the initial question posed by the op refers to his situation as owner sharing his home with a licensee. As a matter of interest I am asking what would the situation be if the op was a long-standing part 4 tenant who had a licensee he wanted to prevent from becoming a co-tenant in what is after all still his home, even if he doesn’t own the house.

Graham · 10-06-2019 11:13pm

TSQ wrote: »

As a matter of interest I am asking what would the situation be if the op was a long-standing part 4 tenant who had a licensee he wanted to prevent from becoming a co-tenant in what is after all still his home, even if he doesn’t own the house.

During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing
Source: LICENSEES IN PRIVATE RENTED ACCOMMODATION

Mod Note

to discuss that particular tangent further please start a new thread.

jlm29 · 10-06-2019 11:14pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The other licencee moving out is enough evidence of sufficient notice, not that it's necessary.

True enough!

fret_wimp2 · 14-06-2019 8:06pm

How did this go OP?

splinter65 · 14-06-2019 8:40pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i would still wait until after the original date so that oone can say you kicked hm out with no warning extra

Who would be saying anything about it?

the_pen_turner · 14-06-2019 10:52pm

splinter65 wrote: »

Who would be saying anything about it?

the person staying there would rightly be pissed and entitled to complain if they were told to be out by one date and then came home to all their stuff gone and the locks changed.
i would asume that would be theft and a garda matter.
if you gave them until a certain date then i would leave it until then so that they would be outside of the agreed time frame.
i believe you are leaving yourself open to problems by doing as you say.

now if you were to reissue another 'eviction' notice for an earlier date then that would be ok

Tenant refusing to move out

Comments