Big profits at 17 insurance companies... Or is there?

Beta Ray Bill · 13-06-2019 10:02AM #1

Seen this in the news this morning.

Combined profits at 17 insurance firms rise by more than 1,300% in a year

Profits at insurance companies have increased by more than 1000%, despite rising premiums for customers.

According to the Irish Independent, the 17 domestic non-life insurers made combined profits of €227m in 2017, up from €16m in 2016.

This is an increase of 1,318%, according to Insurance Ireland.

Motor cover for private and commercial motorists gave the insurers combined profits of €125m, while average motor insurance premiums increased by 70% between 2013 and 2016.

Household and commercial property insurance provided combined profits of €84.3m to the 17 firms.

There are calls on the Government to do more to bring down insurance costs.

However, business journalist Gavin McLoughlin said there are two sides to the argument.

He said: "It's legitimate to say 'well why shouldn't these profits be given back a bit? Insurance companies should cut premiums and help customers out'.

"The other side of the coin is maybe we actually want insurers to be making good profits, to be financially robust companies because as we have seen here when insurers go bust, we don't want something like that to happen again. "

At first glance is looks like the insurance companies are ripping us off.
However having taken a moment to think about it, it averages out at about €13.3 Million profit per company and doesn't say if it's before or after Tax.

€13.3 Million is a couple of roll over lotto wins.
It's a large sum of money, but given some of the mental claims that there has been in the last 24 months. (The €550,000 awarded for tram surfing and a certain TD springs to mind) It's easy to see how that 13 million could be quickly eroded away if they had "A bad year"

I hate articles worded/titled like the above, as it tries to get the reader annoyed at "The Man" however the problem is clearly the stupid money being paid out on claims and fraudulent claims.
Don't get me wrong, if you receive a long term injury that requires treatment etc, and it wasn't your fault, you are entitled to compensation.
But slipping and hurting your leg for a few days does not count as a long term injury.
Same applies if the injury was your own fault (IE you slipped on a chip because you weren't watching were you were going)

Crazy stuff, altogether :rolleyes:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/combined-profits-at-17-insurance-firms-rise-by-more-than-1300-in-a-year-930512.html

Big Nasty · 13-06-2019 10:10AM

The insurance industry is completely ****ed up in this country. Massive payouts for minor injuries.

The recreational industry is on its knees.

People need to take responsibilities for their own actions.

These guys seem to be trying to lobby for insurance reform. We should all lend them our support IMO.
https://insurancereform.ie/

Atoms for Peace · 13-06-2019 10:12AM

Isn't the EU a common market? Why can't I get German, Czech etc. insurance.?

kneemos · 13-06-2019 10:14AM

grahambo wrote: »

Seen this in the news this morning.

Combined profits at 17 insurance firms rise by more than 1,300% in a year

At first glance is looks like the insurance companies are ripping us off.
However having taken a moment to think about it, it averages out at about €13.3 Million profit per company and doesn't say if it's before or after Tax.

€13.3 Million is a couple of roll over lotto wins.
It's a large sum of money, but given some of the mental claims that there has been in the last 24 months. (The €550,000 awarded for tram surfing and a certain TD springs to mind) It's easy to see how that 13 million could be quickly eroded away if they had "A bad year"

I hate articles worded/titled like the above, as it tries to get the reader annoyed at "The Man" however the problem is clearly the stupid money being paid out on claims and fraudulent claims.
Don't get me wrong, if you receive a long term injury that requires treatment etc, and it wasn't your fault, you are entitled to compensation.
Put slipping and hurting your leg for a few days does not count as a long term injury.
Same applies if the injury was your own fault (IE you slipped on a chip because you weren't watching were you were going)

Crazy stuff, altogether :rolleyes:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/combined-profits-at-17-insurance-firms-rise-by-more-than-1300-in-a-year-930512.html

No massive profits on the face of it,but for seventeen companies to make such profits from a relatively tiny population it presumably means big increases?

Jurgen The German · 13-06-2019 10:14AM

There are still underwriting losses being made and thats what correlates directly to the premiums being paid. An underwriting loss essentially means you are paying out more in claims than you are taking in on premiums. The €227m mooted does not account for things like asset disposal or other non premium related income.

Charlie Weston is a hack of the highest order and would be better served writing for the Sun.

Beta Ray Bill · 13-06-2019 10:14AM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Isn't the EU a common market? Why can't I get German, Czech etc. insurance.?

They aren't willing to offer you insurance here as the market is so volatile.
Just because they "Can" offer financial services here doesn't mean they are obliged to.

It's the same reason EU banks don't offer mortgages here, and the reason our interest rates are so high.

InTheShadows · 13-06-2019 10:16AM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Isn't the EU a common market? Why can't I get German, Czech etc. insurance.?

It's a free market when it suits, same reason we have this ridiculous VRT situation.

Woke Hogan · 13-06-2019 10:18AM

Oh won't someone please think of the multinational insurance companies. :rolleyes:

How does that boot taste?

13-06-2019 10:18AM

Insurance companies and banks are given such a hard time in Ireland and I just don't know why. They are clearly making very little money and just providing this service for the good of society.

Perhaps we could acknowledge their stellar support for Irish society by lowering those really high corporation taxes, stopping this ridiculous state regulation of their corporations and trusting them?

suicide_circus · 13-06-2019 10:21AM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Isn't the EU a common market? Why can't I get German, Czech etc. insurance.?

because its only a common market when it suits business interests.

free movement of people to keep labour costs down? yes.

import a car without vrt? get a cheaper mortgage or insurance? No.

Beta Ray Bill · 13-06-2019 10:21AM

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Oh won't someone please think of the multinational insurance companies. :rolleyes:

How does that boot taste?

I don't think it's about that

They will make money regardless.
They need a "Buffer" though, and it's the rest of us that have to pay for Cover in a volatile market...

Sickens my hole!

Wanderer78 · 13-06-2019 10:22AM

I think we should do a collection for them, maybe even bail them out, kinna feel sorry for them

Del2005 · 13-06-2019 10:27AM

grahambo wrote: »

They aren't willing to offer you insurance here as the market is so volatile.
Just because they "Can" offer financial services here doesn't mean they are obliged to.

It's the same reason EU banks don't offer mortgages here, and the reason our interest rates are so high.

You'd also get a quote based on our payouts not theirs. If Irish insurance was so profitable then we should have companies rushing in to clean up by offering lower premiums. The fact that not a single company company has entered the market and any that offered reasonable quotes have folded shows how bad our insurance market is.

Also €16m profit in the whole industry for a year is shocking, these are billion Euro companies, even the €13m each is tiny in the industry.

As usual the article is blaming the insurance companies when it's our legal system that is to blame. Where is the report on their profits from insurance claims? They are the ones slobbering at the compo trough, where do our judges come from.

The Tetrarch · 13-06-2019 10:28AM

Percentages should be outlawed. Give the raw numbers.
"My consumption of custard crowns in up 1,000%". True, but tells you nothing.

Jurgen The German · 13-06-2019 10:29AM

Do people really not know how insurance works?

Look at Setanta as a prime example.

They entered the market undercutting alot of the established insurers on their pricing and won alot of business. This continued for a few years and claims started to develop. Eventually through the cheap pricing and paying claims the money they had in their coffers ran out and they went tits up leaving tens of thousands without insurance and leaving almost €100 million worth of claims unpaid.

Prudent pricing is paramount for insurers in the market at the moment to avoid another Setanta, Enterprise, Gefion ie insurers that were not taking in enough money to cover the losses they were incurring.

I'd rather pay an extra €50 or €100 a year on my insurance and be safe in the knowledge that if I crash into someone or vice versa that all claims will be paid.

People expect to have that assurance but have bargain basement prices too. It simply is not possible to have both in the Irish market at this point in time.

Woke Hogan · 13-06-2019 10:29AM

grahambo wrote: »

I don't think it's about that

They will make money regardless.
They need a "Buffer" though, and it's the rest of us that have to pay for Cover in a volatile market...

Sickens my hole!

Large companies release articles implying that they're struggling to survive thanks to their greedy consumers, prompting other customers to lash out.

All the elites have to do then is to sit back and count the money rolling in as we eat each other alive. It's a tactic as old as time itself and Irish people are particularly susceptible to it.

13-06-2019 10:31AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

because its only a common market when it suits business interests.

free movement of people to keep labour costs down? yes.

import a car without vrt? get a cheaper mortgage or insurance? No.

Well said. Although I would imagine governments of certain smaller states would have an enormous financial reason to resist a single market where they would lose a huge amount of VRT, for instance. Not thinking of any state in particular, of course.

Balanadan · 13-06-2019 11:12AM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Isn't the EU a common market? Why can't I get German, Czech etc. insurance.?

Why would an insurance company in one of those countries want to take on the risk of slippery Paddy?

Beta Ray Bill · 13-06-2019 11:14AM

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Large companies release articles implying that they're struggling to survive thanks to their greedy consumers, prompting other customers to lash out.

All the elites have to do then is to sit back and count the money rolling in as we eat each other alive. It's a tactic as old as time itself and Irish people are particularly susceptible to it.

The Indo published the article, not an insurance company

And they are not struggling to survive at all, like I said they just double the bill and pass it on to their policy holders.

If the market was really that lucrative we'd have all sorts of people trying to offer insurance in Ireland, but we don't.

I do think they make a fair amount of cheddar no doubt, but there is high risk involved with it. You need to be a huge insurance company to offset that risk.

Boggles · 13-06-2019 11:20AM

Jurgen The German wrote: »

Do people really not know how insurance works?

Look at Setanta as a prime example.

They entered the market undercutting alot of the established insurers on their pricing and won alot of business. This continued for a few years and claims started to develop. Eventually through the cheap pricing and paying claims the money they had in their coffers ran out and they went tits up leaving tens of thousands without insurance and leaving almost €100 million worth of claims unpaid.

Prudent pricing is paramount for insurers in the market at the moment to avoid another Setanta, Enterprise, Gefion ie insurers that were not taking in enough money to cover the losses they were incurring.

I'd rather pay an extra €50 or €100 a year on my insurance and be safe in the knowledge that if I crash into someone or vice versa that all claims will be paid.

People expect to have that assurance but have bargain basement prices too. It simply is not possible to have both in the Irish market at this point in time.

I don't see how any of that is the "Peoples" fault.

It was the insurance industry and the insurance industry alone that fooked up the market backed up by lack of proper regulation.

How they can fook up a market where a large portion of that is absolutely mandatory i.e. illegal not to have is a great mystery.

magic_murph · 13-06-2019 11:23AM

profits are made up of our premiums (small %) plus internal investments in property etc.
Insurance companies invest the monthly money we pay in the same way banks invest the money sitting in our accounts
Not really a news story.

Jurgen The German · 13-06-2019 11:37AM

Boggles wrote: »

I don't see how any of that is the "Peoples" fault.

It was the insurance industry and the insurance industry alone that fooked up the market backed up by lack of proper regulation.

How they can fook up a market where a large portion of that is absolutely mandatory i.e. illegal not to have is a great mystery.

People benefitted from rock bottom premiums for a number of years so the balance had to be redressed. Premiums spiked for a time but are beginning to come down again to a more acceptable level. It's not possible to have ones cake and eat it.

At the end of the day, its "people" that are making false or exaggerated claims. Until the claims environment is fully addressed then the massive uncertainty remains.

Insurers are legally bound by Solvency II to retain a minimum claims reserve ie cash money set aside to ensure all their losses will be covered. That was an EU directive and was implemented to avoid the likes of another Quinn direct or the massive shortfall that came to light in 123.ie's reserves.

bottar1 · 13-06-2019 11:43AM

Jurgen The German wrote: »

Do people really not know how insurance works?

Look at Setanta as a prime example.

They entered the market undercutting alot of the established insurers on their pricing and won alot of business. This continued for a few years and claims started to develop. Eventually through the cheap pricing and paying claims the money they had in their coffers ran out and they went tits up leaving tens of thousands without insurance and leaving almost €100 million worth of claims unpaid.

Prudent pricing is paramount for insurers in the market at the moment to avoid another Setanta, Enterprise, Gefion ie insurers that were not taking in enough money to cover the losses they were incurring.

I'd rather pay an extra €50 or €100 a year on my insurance and be safe in the knowledge that if I crash into someone or vice versa that all claims will be paid.

People expect to have that assurance but have bargain basement prices too. It simply is not possible to have both in the Irish market at this point in time.

Yep pretty much this.

They need to have money in the coffers and the profits they are making are measly as someone said before they are billion dollar companies.

Not crying the poor mouth for them but the law in this country is alot to blame. People have no resonsibility for their actions. If I break my ****ing wrist doing a tough mudder obstacle wrong (assuming the obstacle didnt fall apart) after signing a waiver i wouldn't dare think of trying to sue, it's my bloody responsibility to take care of myself.

Same with using a ****ing swing, I mean come on, people are taking advantage of the legal system way more than insurance companies are taking advantage of us.

Boggles · 13-06-2019 11:49AM

Jurgen The German wrote: »

People benefitted from rock bottom premiums for a number of years so the balance had to be redressed.

Again not the "Peoples" fault as I have all ready pointed out.

The vast majority of people do not lodge fraudulent claims, they want a decent product for a decent price, obviously this doesn't suit the insurance industry narrative, that we were robbing them for years and we are all scam artists with dodgy whiplash.

The inbalance was caused by the insurance industry not the "people".

The blame lies squarely with the industry, apart from banks they seem to be the only industry that have a God given right to blame others for their own failings and have a divine right to healthy profits.

Atoms for Peace · 13-06-2019 12:20PM

The legal profession in this country are law on to themselves, basically unaccountable. Maybe they should have to run for election.

Jurgen The German · 13-06-2019 12:21PM

Boggles wrote: »

Again not the "Peoples" fault as I have all ready pointed out.

The vast majority of people do not lodge fraudulent claims, they want a decent product for a decent price, obviously this doesn't suit the insurance industry narrative, that we were robbing them for years and we are all scam artists with dodgy whiplash.

The inbalance was caused by the insurance industry not the "people".

The blame lies squarely with the industry, apart from banks they seem to be the only industry that have a God given right to blame others for their own failings and have a divine right to healthy profits.

I never said the industry was blameless. Massive missteps were made and there was a race to the bottom in terms of pricing but like I said, people benefitted from the rock bottom prices for a number of years, people didn't stick with their existing insurer, they went with the cheapest price.

Do you remember insurance pricing in the 90s and early 00s? People were paying substantially more for their insurance then than they are paying now. The rock bottom prices of 123 or Setanta were the exception rather than the rule for the last 30 years however people are unable to understand that or simply choose to ignore it.

Like I said, insurers are not blameless but to expect businesses not to want to make profits is as stupid as anything I've ever read.

Boggles · 13-06-2019 12:32PM

Jurgen The German wrote: »

I never said the industry was blameless.

The Industry acts like it blameless, it is ultimately the "peoples" fault, doctors, lawyers, the EU, foreign business, etc.

It's a distraction, it's a narrative being peddled to justify their increases and profits. Now some of it is true, but the majority of it was their own making.

Like I said what other private company would get away with blaming their customers for their own failings. (Apart from Banks)

Jurgen The German wrote: »

Like I said, insurers are not blameless but to expect businesses not to want to make profits is as stupid as anything I've ever read.

Where did you read that?

Del2005 · 13-06-2019 12:49PM

Boggles wrote: »

Again not the "Peoples" fault as I have all ready pointed out.

The vast majority of people do not lodge fraudulent claims, they want a decent product for a decent price, obviously this doesn't suit the insurance industry narrative, that we were robbing them for years and we are all scam artists with dodgy whiplash.

The inbalance was caused by the insurance industry not the "people".

The blame lies squarely with the industry, apart from banks they seem to be the only industry that have a God given right to blame others for their own failings and have a divine right to healthy profits.

It is the people's fault. In Ireland for an unprovible injury, whiplash, you get €14k in the UK you get £4k in Germany you get nothing.

Insurance is like your taxes, it all goes into a big pool and gets paid out. Everyday you read about people sueing shops and other businesses for €40k+ for "injuries" they don't report till several weeks later, when CCTV is gone. Look how many companies are now winning claims against these people and note the lack of consequences for the people who lied.

Boggles · 13-06-2019 12:54PM

Del2005 wrote: »

It is the people's fault. In Ireland for an unprovible injury, whiplash, you get €14k in the UK you get £4k

So you get 3 and half times more of a payout (roughly) in Ireland according to your figures.

Is insurance 3 and half times cheaper in the UK?

If not, why not?

Jurgen The German · 13-06-2019 01:07PM

Boggles wrote: »

Where did you read that?

Here

Boggles wrote: »

The blame lies squarely with the industry, apart from banks they seem to be the only industry that have a God given right to blame others for their own failings and have a divine right to healthy profits.

Jurgen The German · 13-06-2019 01:09PM

Boggles wrote: »

So you get 3 and half times more of a payout (roughly) in Ireland according to your figures.

Is insurance 3 and half times cheaper in the UK?

If not, why not?

It is not nearly as simple as that and if you had any knowledge about how insurance works, other than taking it from people like Charlie Weston, you would know that.

Big profits at 17 insurance companies... Or is there?

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