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Do we pay too much tax for crappy services?

  • 11-06-2019 2:19pm
    #1
    ZilkyG
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 71 ✭✭


    It seems to me that compared to other European countries, we pay an eye-watering amount of tax for a transport system that would fit in perfectly in the less affluent neighborhoods of Nairobi. Dublin Bus is not fit for purpose, the Luas has just been shoe-horned in without any proper planning. Besides that, transport is stupidly expensive. Is this just me, or do other people think that they're getting fleeced.


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Comments

  • #2
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    We pay too much tax
    its wasted on terrible services
    its also wasted on rules ensuring better private operators are either completely banned or have to waste insane amounts of money to compete.

    There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.


  • #3
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.

    Which would lead to private operators taking all the money making routes, running services when they felt like ,with whatever standards they feel like, killing off the competition and then scaling back on the services.

    No thanks!


  • #4
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    We pay too much tax
    its wasted on terrible services
    its also wasted on rules ensuring better private operators are either completely banned or have to waste insane amounts of money to compete.

    There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.

    However when some private concerns have the ear of government it doesn't mean a fair deal for the tax payer.


  • #5
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    There should be no infringment on a private operator competing, especially for transport and utilities.

    Which would lead to private operators taking all the money making routes, running services when they felt like ,with whatever standards they feel like, killing off the competition and then scaling back on the services.

    No thanks!

    Some of the coach travel stuff works quite well. Good service frequency on say airport runs and running in the night.

    Wheras Bus Eireann can be lathargic and slow to deliver.


  • #6
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Yes. We pay far too much tax.


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  • #7
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    However when some private concerns have the ear of government it doesn't mean a fair deal for the tax payer.

    lobbying and corruption is an entire different thread but it too needs to be on the chopping block. Without issuing licences or regulation standards suited to some operators there would be nothing to lobby for though.


  • #8
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    lobbying and corruption is an entire different thread but it too needs to be on the chopping block. Without issuing licences or regulation standards suited to some operators there would be nothing to lobby for though.

    Not wanting to point out the obviousness, no need for a thread. Just saying that when private is brought in it's often not for the tax payers benefit. I'd suggest tighter accountability on state services and value for money. We seem to have manys a money hole and when contractors are brought in we get similar. The contract brokers and state need to be held accountable and rewarded or punished based on quality.


  • #9
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I think everyone who lives in a social democracy believes that they pay too much tax and dont get enough services! Even the huge multinationals corporations who pay very little corporation tax in Ireland probably believe they pay too much in tax and dont get enough for it.

    In reality, we have good services and medium taxes. Not amazing services like one might expect in many other Western EU states, nor amazingly low taxes like Dubai etc, but nor do we have the dangerously small level of social care that the USA or Somalia has, but nor do we live in North Korea.

    The focus of government should be on slowly and proportionately making things better. If people are too dismissive of how the country is run, nothing will change IMO, as each fresh scandal will be met with shurgged shoulders and an "ah sure what do you expect" attitude. Which is kind of what got us here in the first place


  • #10
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,849 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Old diesel wrote: »
    Some of the coach travel stuff works quite well. Good service frequency on say airport runs and running in the night.

    Wheras Bus Eireann can be lathargic and slow to deliver.

    The private companies treat there staff the complete opposite of the state companies. Neither are good options but that's what we have. Overpaid unionised staff in state run companies, unless you are a new entrant, and over worked staff earning the same, or less, than someone packing shelves in a supermarket in the private companies.


  • #11
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    Business people should be hired to run public sector services
    Doctors should not run hospitals.
    Just because you were a train driver for 20 years inspector for 10 years shouldn’t qualify you to run eireann rud eireann
    Until these services are run like a well oiled machine we will carry on paying too much tax for slow inefficient services.


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  • #12
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    keithm1 wrote: »
    Business people should be hired to run public sector services
    Doctors should not run hospitals.
    Just because you were a train driver for 20 years inspector for 10 years shouldn’t qualify you to run eireann rud eireann
    Until these services are run like a well oiled machine we will carry on paying too much tax for slow inefficient services.
    What's a 'business person'?


  • #13
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    Private sector business person not someone who dragged there heels through the ranks of an inefficient business model


  • #14
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    LPT should apply to everyone whether renting or owner. We all avail of the same services.

    Happens in every other EU country, but not here for some reason. Anyone know why?

    If everyone who avails of services (such as they are) there would be so much more income available to improve things in local areas.

    But most things have been privatised. So therefore fly tipping and so on.

    Oh to be honest I just don't know anymore why part of my LPT is going to deepest rural areas up the side of a mountain whose council hasn't got enough. Gas isn't it.


  • #15
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    I don’t mean to be offensive to public sector folks but the reality is they probably don’t realise how inefficient there work day is because they come through the ranks in that environment.


  • #16
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    keithm1 wrote: »
    I don’t mean to be offensive to public sector folks but the reality is they probably don’t realise how inefficient there work day is because they come through the ranks in that environment.

    Can you give examples of poor quality public sector workers?


  • #17
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    Sorry I can’t personally fault any 1 person.every one feels there busy.
    It’s the business model that’s inefficient.
    I’ve worked as a subcontractor to both public and private sectors for many years,
    If you brought me into an office floor blindfolded with no signage 9/10 times I could tell you if it was public or private within minutes


  • #18
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    keithm1 wrote: »
    Private sector business person not someone who dragged there heels through the ranks of an inefficient business model

    So a corner shop owner or an owner of a garage? Estate agent? That type of business person?


  • #19
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    keithm1 wrote: »
    I don’t mean to be offensive to public sector folks but the reality is they probably don’t realise how inefficient there work day is because they come through the ranks in that environment.

    I don't generally disagree with some of your thoughts but there are a lot of new entrants in the public sector in the past number of years that wouldn't have come through the ranks as such.


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    im hoping starting the same thread every two weeks isnt an example of private sector efficiency


  • #21
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    kippy wrote: »
    So a corner shop owner or an owner of a garage? Estate agent? That type of business person?

    Don’t be silly


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  • #22
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    kippy wrote: »
    I don't generally disagree with some of your thoughts but there are a lot of new entrants in the public sector in the past number of years that wouldn't have come through the ranks as such.

    Fair point but major shake ups needed to get what the OP asked
    tax spend V services provided


  • #23
    LeBash
    Registered Users Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭LeBash


    By the national debt and the money still being borrowed, I'd say we aren't paying enough tax.

    Yeah the services suck as a whole when compared to some parts of continental Europe but I'd prefer to have them there than not to be honest.

    Equally we are miles ahead of most countries in the word. Mexico for example doesnt have a postal service, or at least a mate told me that over a few pints and I believed him.


  • #24
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    We don't pay too much tax, but we do pay too much for the services we get.

    I personally wouldn't have an issue paying even more in tax if I knew the money was going to be properly invested and wasn't going to be wasted on vote-buying and paying a bloated public service.


  • #25
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    LeBash wrote: »
    Equally we are miles ahead of most countries in the word. Mexico for example doesnt have a postal service, or at least a mate told me that over a few pints and I believed him.

    Mexico do have a postal service - Correos de Mexico


  • #26
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    keithm1 wrote: »
    Sorry I can’t personally fault any 1 person.every one feels there busy.
    It’s the business model that’s inefficient.
    I’ve worked as a subcontractor to both public and private sectors for many years,
    If you brought me into an office floor blindfolded with no signage 9/10 times I could tell you if it was public or private within minutes

    There are likely inefficiencies but the idea that managers sit idle while their staff sit idle nearby and there's no agenda, job of work that anyone is bothered doing, is unbelievable.
    keithm1 wrote: »
    Fair point but major shake ups needed to get what the OP asked
    tax spend V services provided

    Agreed, however getting in contractors doesn't seem to work either.
    There's something wrong when catastrophic loses to the tax payer are shrugged off as a mystery while we look to the proverbial corpo worker leaning on a shovel.
    People will happily pay taxes for services. Seeing waste and poor services, will lead to a feeling of paying too much tax.


  • #27
    wiggle16
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭wiggle16


    I think it would be interesting to find out if the people who are adamant that they pay "too much tax" know what the tax rates are in other Western European countries and can evaluate them accordingly.


  • #28
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    keithm1 wrote: »
    Don’t be silly

    Are these people not business people?


  • #29
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    There are likely inefficiencies but the idea that managers sit idle while their staff sit idle nearby and there's no agenda, job of work that anyone is bothered doing, is unbelievable.






    Correct but there are major inefficiencies, but I never said people sit idle, I can just tell if I’m in the Opw/county council/ HSE /etc... etc... offices by the general pace and vibe in comparison to similar private offices.






    Agreed, however getting in contractors doesn't seem to work either.
    There's something wrong when catastrophic loses to the tax payer are shrugged off as a mystery while we look to the proverbial corpo worker leaning on a shovel.
    People will happily pay taxes for services. Seeing waste and poor services, will lead to a feeling of paying too much tax.




    I agree with all of the above, along with a big shake up ,corruption needs to be rooted out for us to get value for money services. A lot of private contracted business to the public sector is done with a wink and a nod.

    .......


  • #30
    keithm1
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭keithm1


    kippy wrote: »
    Are these people not business people?

    They are

    But to help with your pedanticness.....
    Someone with a track record of running a profit making company of similar size.

    Look the reality is it will take multiple generations to shake it up 100plus years.
    Or privatise the lot which comes with its own problems.


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  • #31
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,381 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    keithm1 wrote: »
    They are

    But to help with your pedanticness.....
    Someone with a track record of running a profit making company of similar size.

    Look the reality is it will take multiple generations to shake it up 100plus years.
    Or privatise the lot which comes with its own problems.
    Out of interest what company would be comparable to Temple Street and what kind of track record of profits would the business person need to have?


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