What is the actual issue with the Irish Rail seat reservations system

techdiver · 30-05-2019 5:28pm #1

Hi,

Does anyone know here what the details of the implementation of the seat reservations system for Irish Rail trains? It seems, for want of a better description, utter crap.

It is a complete lottery as to whether names are actually displayed over seats. This is a major annoyance for me as a regular commuter as I take the time to turn up in time to secure a seat on a busy service, being careful not to sit in a reserved seat. The issue arises on regular occasions that despite no names being displayed over seats I am still sitting in a reserved seat. Of course people who reserve seats tend to turn up at the last second and that leaves me standing as no other seats are available. I have also noticed names appearing randomly during a journey after already having left Connolly etc.

So what is the problem with the system? Is it automated (if it is it's incredibly fragile) or does it require manual input at the station (wtf if so)? Seat reservations have been available on these new sets for 10+ years now and the system is still no better. What are the technical barriers that prevent Irish Rail from fixing this?

GarIT · 30-05-2019 5:33pm

I heard before that the file containing booked seats has to be manually transferred by a USB key or similar from an internet connected computer in the station to the computer on the train.

The trains aren't anywhere near new or modern and would cost 100,000s to upgrade.

bobbyss · 30-05-2019 7:03pm

What about doing this and forget about those signs over seats.

Can this be done If you have a reservation made then get a printed paper showing train time, destination, carraige number, seat number etc. In other words something to show that THAT seat is yours at that time then If someone is sitting in THAT seat thry have to move.
No need for faulty signs

DesperateDan · 30-05-2019 7:06pm

There was a written rule on the website that says if you ain't in your reserved seat 20 mins before departure it's fair game. Try telling that to the person that reserved though

Spanish Eyes · 30-05-2019 7:15pm

The Enterprise seems to be able to display seat reservations and non reserved seats on boarding. Maybe that is because passengers are corralled (in Connolly anway) until the doors open so there is time to plug in the information or something.

Other inter city services, not so much. Is the Enterprise a different type train to others in IR? Or is it the cross border element that keeps it in line or what?

I don't trust seat reservations at all. The only thing you can do is to get there early, board early and take your reserved seat whether the sign is turned on or not. Kind of defeats the purpose of reserving a seat though!

Del.Monte · 30-05-2019 7:47pm

How about reinventing the wheel and going back to paper reservation stickers on seat enforced by train hosts which IE are now bringing back? All this electronic bs counts for nothing if there's no official there to enforce it.

ED E · 30-05-2019 7:50pm

This was posted before, I believe it was Jamie2K9, will try and find it.

Train is started up, pulls a manifest from IR HQ. Names display. For whatever reason the driver shuts down for a sec, power is lost. Starts again, blank displays. It doesn't pull the manifest again.

devnull · 30-05-2019 8:05pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Other inter city services, not so much. Is the Enterprise a different type train to others in IR? Or is it the cross border element that keeps it in line or what?

I don't trust seat reservations at all. The only thing you can do is to get there early, board early and take your reserved seat whether the sign is turned on or not. Kind of defeats the purpose of reserving a seat though!

System on the Enterprise is a more modern system by a different and well regarded company, Televic, who also supplied the passenger information system for the 8100 DART series and many other major rolling stock projects around the world.

https://www.televic-rail.com/en/references

coylemj · 30-05-2019 9:20pm

How about they let you book a ticket online but let you decline an allocated seat? I can do without the hassle of asking someone to get out of a seat that has been allocated to me. But neither do I want a seat left empty because my name is above it and I couldn't be bothered looking for it.

Jamie2k9 · 30-05-2019 9:36pm

It's working better than ever now.

This was posted before, I believe it was Jamie2K9, will try and find it.

Train is started up, pulls a manifest from IR HQ. Names display. For whatever reason the driver shuts down for a sec, power is lost. Starts again, blank displays. It doesn't pull the manifest again.

Switching ends even if power not cut makes it disappear for certain drivers.

Not having the PA system at stations such as Kilkenny or Killarney making the announcement at the platform in Irish/English will wipe them as once the driver moves ends they will say Kilkenny in Irish/English and once that happens names go and take another 30-60 minutes to load depending on internet and how full the train is.

It's got to a stage I can tell what drivers will mess it up!

Hilly Bill · 31-05-2019 12:38am

GarIT wrote: »

I heard before that the file containing booked seats has to be manually transferred by a USB key or similar from an internet connected computer in the station to the computer on the train.

The trains aren't anywhere near new or modern and would cost 100,000s to upgrade.

That's only a back up. The names should come up via WiFi once the train id is entered. If its failed then it gets logged and the set looked at.

Hilly Bill · 31-05-2019 12:39am

bobbyss wrote: »

What about doing this and forget about those signs over seats.

Can this be done If you have a reservation made then get a printed paper showing train time, destination, carraige number, seat number etc. In other words something to show that THAT seat is yours at that time then If someone is sitting in THAT seat thry have to move.
No need for faulty signs

It's on your ticket.

Hilly Bill · 31-05-2019 12:40am

DesperateDan wrote: »

There was a written rule on the website that says if you ain't in your reserved seat 20 mins before departure it's fair game. Try telling that to the person that reserved though

Not realistic though.

grimbergen · 31-05-2019 12:46am

I've travelled a good few times lately on Cork line in particular and it's always worked to be fair.

Polar101 · 31-05-2019 3:24am

The last time I was on the Cork - Dublin train, the reservations were displayed, but they were off by one carriage. So if you had reserved E53, it was displaying in D53. According to the 'conductor' (or whatever you call the train host these days), it happened in Mallow and he couldn't do anything about it.

Any idea how that happened?

Hilly Bill · 01-06-2019 12:17am

Polar101 wrote: »

The last time I was on the Cork - Dublin train, the reservations were displayed, but they were off by one carriage. So if you had reserved E53, it was displaying in D53. According to the 'conductor' (or whatever you call the train host these days), it happened in Mallow and he couldn't do anything about it.

Any idea how that happened?

That's a strange one alright.

trellheim · 02-06-2019 1:28pm

How to solve

1) Assign the problem to three or four University IT final year students as their end of year practical problem ;

goals are to drive reliability and correctness to 99.5% or whatever, and have a bake-off at the end between the four of them. Its not safety critical infrastructure

I guarantee you things will improve

Solutions e,g raspberry PI, python, 3g SIM, wifi and code up a quick interface to the res system that checks every few mins its in the right place and the set is going in the right direction

Jem72 · 03-06-2019 7:58am

coylemj wrote: »

How about they let you book a ticket online but let you decline an allocated seat? I can do without the hassle of asking someone to get out of a seat that has been allocated to me. But neither do I want a seat left empty because my name is above it and I couldn't be bothered looking for it.

I agree entirely with this. Personally I can't be bothered with a booked seat as I like to be able to choose a seat in a specific carriage facing a particular direction and often take a different train to the one I've booked anyway. And I suspect at least 50% of people buying on-line simply don't care about booking.

The obvious solution to the musical chairs problem is to corral all the bookings in to one or two carriages and mark the carriages as reserved. If they fill up, have the system unlock another carriage.

Genghis · 03-06-2019 8:27am

Then there is the problem with passengers not taking their reserved seat.

Seats display names, but reserved passenger boards and I presume either sits anywhere else, or hasn't shown up.

Unreserved passengers on a full train stand while the reserved seat is unoccupied.

On a full train where I am left standing I will occupy any reserved seat the second a train departs.

JayRoc · 03-06-2019 8:34am

Jem72 wrote: »

I agree entirely with this. Personally I can't be bothered with a booked seat as I like to be able to choose a seat in a specific carriage facing a particular direction and often take a different train to the one I've booked anyway. And I suspect at least 50% of people buying on-line simply don't care about booking.

The obvious solution to the musical chairs problem is to corral all the bookings in to one or two carriages and mark the carriages as reserved. If they fill up, have the system unlock another carriage.

Exactly the same for me.

I tend to travel at times that are a little quieter anyway. And obviously I'm not going to sit crammed in with 3 other people just because I was assigned that seat during booking, when I can sit on my own in comfort.

Tbh I very rarely take the seat that has been booked for me. I turn up in good time and choose one I like.

Beechwoodspark · 03-06-2019 8:40am

I’ve noticed that often there are displays saying someone has booked a seat but that person never arrives

JayRoc · 03-06-2019 8:55am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve noticed that often there are displays saying someone has booked a seat but that person never arrives

Someone earlier mentioned flexible and semi flexible tickets, I would think this also causes a large number of bookings to go unused.

ectoraige · 03-06-2019 10:42am

Are flexible tickets part of the problem?

You can book a seat on, say, a 5pm train but travel on the 4pm train instead. Your ticket will still have the reserved seat no. printed on it so you could boot people from the seat if they don't notice that it's for a different time.

Meanwhile, on the 5pm train your seat is left empty with your name over it.

There doesn't seem to be a mechanism to handle this, is there?

boombang · 11-06-2019 6:22pm

Ideally the system on the train would be fixed.

Short of that, an app/webpage based system that could be updated in real time would allow people check if a seat is booked. This would also allow people to unreserve a seat that they don't take.

Some will whinge that not everybody has a smartphone, which is true. However, why not have a system that the 90% of people who do have a smartphone use? A team of young scientists could do this.

Del2005 · 11-06-2019 6:28pm

boombang wrote: »

Ideally the system on the train would be fixed.

Short of that, an app/webpage based system that could be updated in real time would allow people check if a seat is booked. This would also allow people to unreserve a seat that they don't take.

Some will whinge that not everybody has a smartphone, which is true. However, why not have a system that the 90% of people who do have a smartphone use? A team of young scientists could do this.

There's no need for an app they just need to make the system they have better. The issue is with the back end anyway not the display. So an app will just move the problem not fix it.

boombang · 11-06-2019 6:34pm

Del2005 wrote: »

There's no need for an app they just need to make the system they have better. The issue is with the back end anyway not the display. So an app will just move the problem not fix it.

If the problem is with the backend as you say, then my suggestion indeed won't work. From the sounds of some of the other posts people indicate that some of the problems aren't purely backend (they could be wrong of course).

A web interface would at least allow somebody to check with a passenger do they intend to take their seat or not.

sitstill · 11-06-2019 7:39pm

I was on the Enterprise out of Dublin twice over the last month and on both times, the seat reservations weren’t working. Is there some fault/issue on those trains too?

Del2005 · 12-06-2019 10:06am

boombang wrote: »

A web interface would at least allow somebody to check with a passenger do they intend to take their seat or not.

According to the terms of the allocated seat ticket you have to be in the seat 20 minutes before departure. So if someone is sitting in a seat its either the person who reserved it or not.

What they could do is say the seat is reserved from X station for Y, so that you can know if the seat is free to use or not. This can be done on the train with zero need for an app or wedsite. IIRC I saw that on a train in England and took a seat reserved after the station we were getting off.

devnull · 12-06-2019 11:23am

sitstill wrote: »

I was on the Enterprise out of Dublin twice over the last month and on both times, the seat reservations weren’t working. Is there some fault/issue on those trains too?

Different system by a different vendor to the other Irish Rail stuff.

Should be more reliable really and not have the same issues, the company who provided it are one of the best known for systems of their kind around the world.

Would be curious if the Enterprise issues are focused mostly on sets worked by Irish Rail or Translink staff.

Emme · 12-06-2019 1:55pm

Get people to pay €5 or €10 extra to book a seat. Then there will be no problems with people turning up for their seats. Irish Rail can use that money to employ somebody to go around the train with signs to place on the seats stating that they are booked. Win win.

devnull · 12-06-2019 1:57pm

Emme wrote: »

Get people to pay €5 or €10 extra to book a seat. Then there will be no problems with people turning up for their seats. Irish Rail can use that money to employ somebody to go around the train with signs to place on the seats stating that they are booked. Win win.

To be honest, whilst in theory it should all work fine and dandy, I can't see someone going round and doing that without a pay rise in exchange for it and it won't be sustainable to employ someone to just do that.

Realistically though with the amount of trouble that Irish Rail have with passenger information systems at stations and on trains, seat reservations, ticket machines etc, one has to ask the question if it is not always equipment that is at fault.

Del.Monte · 12-06-2019 1:59pm

Paper signs on the seats enforced by staff worked perfectly for years but CIE couldn't get rid of the staff off trains quick enough.

TheShow · 12-06-2019 2:03pm

its just a rubbish system.
its very frustrating.

I've stopped acceding to those who have reserved seats. My rule is, if there is no name in lights above the seat when I sit down, then I ain't getting up no matter what.
Annual ticket costs a bloody fortune compared to some bumpkin who has paid €10 to go up to the big smoke for the day.

12-06-2019 2:20pm

Why not have each ticket display a seat number by default? Similar to a plane. If all the seats are gone, then you get a standing only ticket, but that's your own fault for being late to the party.

XPS_Zero · 12-06-2019 10:20pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not have each ticket display a seat number by default? Similar to a plane. If all the seats are gone, then you get a standing only ticket, but that's your own fault for being late to the party.

ATM the ticket office machines and online system are not connected to each other so there is no server somewhere that knows how many seats are sold so the ticket office stops issuing tickets for that train

There should be, but IE is pretty incompetent as an organization so don't hold your breath.

el Fenomeno · 13-06-2019 8:06am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve noticed that often there are displays saying someone has booked a seat but that person never arrives

The majority of the time they've just chosen to sit in the closest carriage that pulls up to them on the platform.

Emme · 13-06-2019 8:19am

Why don't seat reservations say where passengers are getting on and not just put names there?

Jamie2k9 · 13-06-2019 8:21am

Emme wrote: »

Why don't seat reservations say where passengers are getting on and not just put names there?

They do already. It will say reserved from x station. If there is a name there when for example you leave Heuston it means they have not turned up or sat elsewhere.

Hardcharger · 13-06-2019 8:29am

techdiver wrote: »

Hi,

Does anyone know here what the details of the implementation of the seat reservations system for Irish Rail trains? It seems, for want of a better description, utter crap.

It is a complete lottery as to whether names are actually displayed over seats. This is a major annoyance for me as a regular commuter as I take the time to turn up in time to secure a seat on a busy service, being careful not to sit in a reserved seat. The issue arises on regular occasions that despite no names being displayed over seats I am still sitting in a reserved seat. Of course people who reserve seats tend to turn up at the last second and that leaves me standing as no other seats are available. I have also noticed names appearing randomly during a journey after already having left Connolly etc.

So what is the problem with the system? Is it automated (if it is it's incredibly fragile) or does it require manual input at the station (wtf if so)? Seat reservations have been available on these new sets for 10+ years now and the system is still no better. What are the technical barriers that prevent Irish Rail from fixing this?

The best way around any hassle is to book online. The carriage number and seat is on your ticket so if your name doesn't come up you are entitled to sit there. You will not be sitting in a seat reserved and get into bother with somone coming at the last minute. If you come across someone occupying your seat you can show them the ticket and they are obliged to move.

Plus it's cheaper.

Less stress

Del.Monte · 13-06-2019 8:45am

Hardcharger wrote: »

The best way around any hassle is to book online. The carriage number and seat is on your ticket so if your name doesn't come up you are entitled to sit there. You will not be sitting in a seat reserved and get into bother with somone coming at the last minute. If you come across someone occupying your seat you can show them the ticket and they are obliged to move.

Plus it's cheaper.

Less stress

How so if you have to fight with someone who refuses to move? Do you ask the Gourmet Rail operative, if there's a trolley, to evict the person sitting in your seat? :rolleyes:

Jem72 · 13-06-2019 8:54am

Hardcharger wrote: »

The best way around any hassle is to book online. The carriage number and seat is on your ticket so if your name doesn't come up you are entitled to sit there. You will not be sitting in a seat reserved and get into bother with somone coming at the last minute. If you come across someone occupying your seat you can show them the ticket and they are obliged to move.

Plus it's cheaper.

Less stress

Not everyone has the option of booking online. It doesn't work for those on monthly/annual passes or for those on Free Travel Passes. Also, the person sitting in the seat is not obliged to move if it is less than 20 minutes before departure time - a condition that makes the booking of tickets almost completely pointless.

While higher rate taxpayers get a benefit from the state, contrary to popular myth, Irish Rail hardly discount passes at all. On Sligo, a 5 day per week commuter gets about a 20% discount on a monthly TaxSaver.

The solution is obvious - confine bookings to a small number of carriages proportional to the percentage of tickets sold as booking. Also, allowing an online ticket purchase without a seat reservation would help a lot since many people book with then intention of using the flexible ticket to take a different train.

Another possibility would be to allow free seat reservations for those possessing paid passes. I can't understand why you get a free reservation you don't want with an online ticket yet you have to pay for it when you've already paid handsomely for a pass. Paying the seat reservation fee for a passholder more than eliminates the discount received for the bulk purchase of a year's travel.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 13-06-2019 9:01am

Jem72 wrote: »

Not everyone has the option of booking online. It doesn't work for those on monthly/annual passes or for those on Free Travel Passes.

Yeh it does, for the latter anyway which I have booked for my parents. You book online and get a reserved seat then tick a box that says free travel. Theres a booking fee (5€) and you get a number to print out the tickets with seats attached.

Emme · 13-06-2019 9:32am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They do already. It will say reserved from x station. If there is a name there when for example you leave Heuston it means they have not turned up or sat elsewhere.

I have got on at Carlow several mornings and passed reserved seats. Names only, nothing about being reserved from Carlow.

Jem72 · 13-06-2019 9:35am

The message changes to just the passenger name when the train arrives at the station where the reservation starts.

But it's more likely that you're looking at seats where the person who made the reservation preferred to sit elsewhere. It's also quite possible that the wrong train info has been loaded and you're looking at the bookings for an entirely different service.

facehugger99 · 13-06-2019 9:45am

Del2005 wrote: »

According to the terms of the allocated seat ticket you have to be in the seat 20 minutes before departure. So if someone is sitting in a seat its either the person who reserved it or not.

Which is obviously impossible if you're not getting on at the departure station.

techdiver · 13-06-2019 11:09am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Yeh it does, for the latter anyway which I have booked for my parents. You book online and get a reserved seat then tick a box that says free travel. Theres a booking fee (5€) and you get a number to print out the tickets with seats attached.

So your solution is for everyone who commutes daily to pay another €5 per day!

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 13-06-2019 11:11am

coylemj wrote: »

How about they let you book a ticket online but let you decline an allocated seat? I can do without the hassle of asking someone to get out of a seat that has been allocated to me. But neither do I want a seat left empty because my name is above it and I couldn't be bothered looking for it.

If the seat is left empty after leaving the station, someone can sit in it because they know that person it was allocated to didn’t use it. If it’s booked at a station along the line, the display will say that.

Del2005 wrote: »

According to the terms of the allocated seat ticket you have to be in the seat 20 minutes before departure. So if someone is sitting in a seat its either the person who reserved it or not.

What they could do is say the seat is reserved from X station for Y, so that you can know if the seat is free to use or not. This can be done on the train with zero need for an app or wedsite. IIRC I saw that on a train in England and took a seat reserved after the station we were getting off.

They do that already! I’ve seen the display saying ‘Seat booked from X station’.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-06-2019 11:14am

I have travelled in Irish Rail a few times and never seen the system fail. I guess either I am lucky or other people are unlucky, or a mix of the two. But so far so good!

That said, putting the passengers name or booking number on the seats always struck me as a bit weird. Who needs that information?

Here in Germany what is displayed over the seats is the FROM and TO stations for which the next reservation exists.

That way you can know that while the seat has a reservation it might be after the journey you intend to make so you can happily sit there. Or you can select the seat that will allow you to sit for the greater proportion of your journey.

The pricing of the booking is ridiculous here however. It is nearly 5 euro regardless of journey length or type. So if I reserve a seat on a single train for 20 minutes between two stops I pay the same as I would if I booked a 7 hour journey involving reserved seats on 5 different trains.

facehugger99 · 13-06-2019 11:19am

Got a day return last week and on the way up there was no booking info above my seat - there was on old guy sitting in my seat that I wasn't going to ask to move so I found another seat.

On the return trip my name was displayed.

It's a typically Irish (shur it'll be grand) type of system.

nozzferrahhtoo · 13-06-2019 11:26am

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’ve noticed that often there are displays saying someone has booked a seat but that person never arrives

Hands up I am guilty of that here in Germany.

I am currently in a new job where for the first months I work away from home, so the company pay my train for the 4 hour journey each way.

My train there on Monday is ok, but my train home on Friday I can travel at 1730 but sometimes I can get out for the 1530.

So I book a ticket and seat on the 1730, then for 5 euro more I book a seat on the 1530. So every Friday at least one train has a seat booked by me, for which I never arrive.

There is no way for me to cancel one when I know I am going to use the other. If there was, I would use it.

The Rail company here deal with it merely by leaving the reservation above the seat until 5 minutes after the train leaves the station where the reservation begins. So 5 minutes after me not showing up, the seat appears as available again whether I am sitting in it or not.

Hardcharger · 14-06-2019 10:53am

Del.Monte wrote: »

How so if you have to fight with someone who refuses to move? Do you ask the Gourmet Rail operative, if there's a trolley, to evict the person sitting in your seat? :rolleyes:

It lean in look them directly in the eye and whisper while pointing "Last night when you were sleeping I was looking at your neck and I was that close to slicing it." After a suitable pause I whisper "Get up out of my seat now." A wink and a smile and a friendly clap on the back.

What is the actual issue with the Irish Rail seat reservations system

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