Aircoach up for sale?

bk · 30-05-2019 7:15pm #1

Over the years there have been rumours of Aircoach being up for sale and I've always ignored them as have little truth. But this time it has cropped up again and this time there is at least some evidence behind it to back it up.

FirstGroup, Aircoach's parent company, has announced that it will sell off it's Greyhound US and First Bus UK groups, so it would make sense if they sold off Aircoach too.

I'd say there would be a lot of interest in Aircoach, it is a very successful and profitable company.

I'd guess GoAhead would be a major contender, they seem to be very interested in expanding in Ireland and it would give them very useful depot locations and a decent intercity network, along with the obviously great airport routes.

CityLink would be a great buyer too, it would create a company with a presence on every major route in Ireland, with no overlap between the two.

GoBus or Dublin Coach would be less preferable giving pre-existing overlap between routes.

Of course there are some other possible Irish companies too, new foreign entrants or even possibly a management buyout.

Del.Monte · 30-05-2019 7:50pm

CIE?

devnull · 30-05-2019 8:19pm

bk wrote: »

FirstGroup, Aircoach's parent company, has announced that it will sell off it's Greyhound US and First Bus UK groups, so it would make sense if they sold off Aircoach too.

They haven't really said that it will be sold off, just that they are exploring 'structural alternatives to separate' it from the group, which could result in them spinning it off rather than selling it up. Even then we don't know if the whole lot will go to one company or UK Bus will be cut up into pieces and different parts will end up with different parties. But the fact they used the word separation about UK Bus whereas they used sell for Greyhound suggests to me a spin-off or something similar is not being ruled out.

I'd guess GoAhead would be a major contender, they seem to be very interested in expanding in Ireland and it would give them very useful depot locations and a decent intercity network, along with the obviously great airport routes.

CityLink would be a great buyer too, it would create a company with a presence on every major route in Ireland, with no overlap between the two. GoBus or Dublin Coach would be less preferable giving pre-existing overlap between routes.

Go-Ahead would be well placed but don't have much experience in running coach or airport based bus operations. So it wouldn't necessary be a good fit business wise. However Aircoach having a depot in the North of the city is going to be attractive to them as they could move some of their vehicles up there to cut dead mileage and some of the Aircoach vehicles down to the South and also it would give them bigger scale in the country and leave them not so exposed to contracts as they would have a commercial arm too.

Personally I wouldn't like Dublin Coach to get it, because I think that Aircoach is a far better run company with better vehicles, treats it staff better with better customer service and is overall a far better brand and offers a far superior service to what is offered by DC. Citylink is a possibility due to lack of overlap, Can't see GoBus raising the finance though.

CIE would cause serious competition concerns!

belfast stephen · 30-05-2019 8:56pm

Go Ahead own Oxford bus company who run routes to London and london airports so could draw on that for the coaching experience

devnull · 30-05-2019 9:15pm

belfast stephen wrote: »

Go Ahead own Oxford bus company who run routes to London and london airports so could draw on that for the coaching experience

If you're talking about the X90 and the Airline routes then that's a pretty uninspiring route, with a poor livery, poor marketing and seating that is nothing to really shout about, it comes across as a bus company trying to run a coach route, which is exactly what it is. The vehicles are uninspiring Plaxtons as well.

Wishbone Ash · 30-05-2019 9:23pm

Do Aircoach still have the DAA contract for the car park shuttle buses?

devnull · 30-05-2019 9:26pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Do Aircoach still have the DAA contract for the car park shuttle buses?

It's up this year for tender, not sure exactly when but I know the DAA wanted new vehicles to replace the Mercedes artics that have been on there since 2008. I think they were looking at either hybrid or fully electric vehicles.

Don't know of any articulated vehicles that would fit the bill though and going back to rigids would be a backward step which would mean they'd need more buses to run the same level of service capacity wise.

bk · 30-05-2019 9:58pm

devnull wrote: »

The vehicles are uninspiring Plaxtons as well.

Well they would be right at home with Aircoach so.

devnull wrote: »

Don't know of any articulated vehicles that would fit the bill though and going back to rigids would be a backward step which would mean they'd need more buses to run the same level of service capacity wise.

Well all the usual suspects, Volvo, VDL, Solaris, Vanhool, etc. all make full EV articulated buses in Europe. I know doors on the wrong side, but perhaps a special order.

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/electric-bus-public-transport-main-fleets-projects-around-world/

devnull · 30-05-2019 10:07pm

bk wrote: »

Well they would be right at home with Aircoach so.

They're lower spec interior wise than Aircoach. No leather seats, headrests to sleep on, not even any carpet or tinted windows and the Wifi is quite limited and I didn't spot USB sockets at every seat, only most of them and a small toilet. They do have better leg-room but everything else feels cheaper.

They paid roughly the same price per coach for their tri-axle overdeckers as Aircoach paid for their two axle standard coaches. That tells you all you need to know about the low spec they are since overdeckers will always carry a decent premium over a standard coach with all things being equal.

Well all the usual suspects, Volvo, VDL, Solaris, Vanhool, etc. all make full EV articulated buses in Europe. I know doors on the wrong side, but perhaps a special order.

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/electric-bus/electric-bus-public-transport-main-fleets-projects-around-world/

I'd be curious if they adapt them, since none of those have ever showed any interest in building bendy buses for the left hand road side drive, so not sure they'll go for the EV version. Mercedes are the king of artics but I've not seen any hope of an EV style Citaro for the UK and Ireland.

Stephen15 · 30-05-2019 10:40pm

Surely for carpark shuttles all that's needed is fairly basic bus with no fancy features. As much as I don't like the way Dublin Coach run their bus service I will admit I regularly use Quickpark and if doesn't bother me the way they use mostly old Citaros on it as it's only a 5 minute journey.

Electric buses probably make sense for carpark shuttles due the fuel savings as the bus wouldn't be wasting charge by going on long trips.

bk · 30-05-2019 10:40pm

devnull wrote: »

I'd be curious if they adapt them, since none of those have ever showed any interest in building bendy buses for the left hand road side drive, so not sure they'll go for the EV version. Mercedes are the king of artics but I've not seen any hope of an EV style Citaro for the UK and Ireland.

Looks like Mercedes are working on eCitaro's:

https://electrek.co/2018/07/10/mercedes%E2%80%91benz-new-all-electric-ecitaro-bus/

Another article also mentions EV artics, so maybe some hope.

BTW don't read the comments in the above article, damn so many of those people are dumb!

bk · 30-05-2019 10:43pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Surely for carpark shuttles all that's needed is fairly basic bus with no fancy features. As much as I don't like the way Dublin Coach run their bus service I will admit I regularly use Quickpark and if doesn't bother me the way they use mostly old Citaros on it as it's only a 5 minute journey.

Electric buses probably make sense for carpark shuttles due the fuel savings as the bus wouldn't be wasting charge by going on long trips.

Dublin Airport already has Ireland's first full EV bus:

https://irishtechnews.ie/crowne-plaza-hotel-dublin-airport-orders-irelands-first-electric-bus-with-esb-providing-the-ev-charging-solution/

I get the impression that the Airport like to be ahead of things on environmental and social issues. They previously pushed hard for all coaches to be wheelchair accessible and rumour has it they want all buses EV.

devnull · 30-05-2019 10:45pm

bk wrote: »

Dublin Airport already has Ireland's first full EV bus:

https://irishtechnews.ie/crowne-plaza-hotel-dublin-airport-orders-irelands-first-electric-bus-with-esb-providing-the-ev-charging-solution/

That belongs to the Crowne Plaza at Dublin Airport (Top hotel btw!), not Dublin Airport.

bk wrote: »

Looks like Mercedes are working on eCitaro's:

https://electrek.co/2018/07/10/mercedes%E2%80%91benz-new-all-electric-ecitaro-bus/

Another article also mentions EV artics, so maybe some hope.

Question is though will they make a left hand side version? The bendy bus market is very niche in the UK now and very few are ordered per year so it's hard to see much money in it. For example at one point Mercedes went several years without a single order for artics. The chassis and bus development cost etc would probably not justify it.

I can see them certainly releasing left hand drive Electric Rigid Citaros because there is plenty of demand for that and they'll be happy to build standard articulated Citaros, just don't think there is any money in converting an EV Citaro to left hand drive because the UK and Ireland rarely order such vehicles. Many airports are just ordering rigids these days, even if that's a backward step.

bk · 30-05-2019 10:58pm

devnull wrote: »

That belongs to the Crowne Plaza at Dublin Airport (Top hotel btw!), not Dublin Airport.

Yep, though it seems to be driven by DAA policy. I just came across this policy DAA have on LEV's:

https://www.dublinairport.com/docs/default-source/default-document-library/low-emission-vehicle-policy.pdf?sfvrsn=0

It says they will "encourage" all operators around the airport to go LEV

They also say:

Dublin Airport will convert its bus operations to the lowest available emission vehicles. 100% by 2022

devnull wrote: »

Question is though will they make a left hand side version? The bendy bus market is very niche in the UK now and very few are ordered per year so it's hard to see much money in it. For example at one point Mercedes went several years without a single order for artics. The chassis and bus development cost etc would probably not justify it.

I can see them certainly releasing left hand drive Electric Rigid Citaros because there is plenty of demand for that and they'll be happy to build standard articulated Citaros, just don't think there is any money in converting an EV Citaro to left hand drive because the UK and Ireland rarely order such vehicles. Many airports are just ordering rigids these days, even if that's a backward step.

Yep, could be, a real pity the artic market is so poor in UK/Ireland. But understandable due to the dominance of double deckers.

dowlingm · 01-06-2019 3:50pm

Have doubts that getting rid of Greyhound necessarily means disposing Aircoach - very different markets and regulatory setups, and thus economic models.

soundman45 · 01-06-2019 4:44pm

It was mentioned in an earlier post the Go Ahead might purchase Aircoach in order to get a depot location on the northside, surely they must have something nearly ready by now and also the Aircoach depot is barely fit for purpose as it only takes in a bus to refuel and its sent out again on another duty, they have minimal bus parking for their fleet and use Crystal Clean to wash the buses. GA would need a much larger premises.

devnull · 01-06-2019 5:04pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Have doubts that getting rid of Greyhound necessarily means disposing Aircoach - very different markets and regulatory setups, and thus economic models.

As well as saying that they would be selling Greyhound, they have confirmed that their non US Bus operations are also to be separated from the group so that would most certainly include Aircoach.

soundman45 wrote: »

It was mentioned in an earlier post the Go Ahead might purchase Aircoach in order to get a depot location on the northside, surely they must have something nearly ready by now and also the Aircoach depot is barely fit for purpose as it only takes in a bus to refuel and its sent out again on another duty, they have minimal bus parking for their fleet and use Crystal Clean to wash the buses. GA would need a much larger premises.

Of course there is not much space up there, but even if Go-Ahead could store half a dozen or so vehicles up there it would help them for their Northside routes. It doesn't need to be a fully fledged depot. In addition with Aircoach running coach services primarily focusing on the South side of Dublin, a few coaches could be stabled at Ballymount when not in use, but I realise there is only a few hours a day that they won't be.

I'm not saying it's ideal since Aircoach don't need an extensive depot as unlike Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, they operate the same timetable 7 days a week 364 days a year and all their services are pretty much 24 hours, but I can see that there is some logic in it and out of the possible Irish buyers, Go-Ahead would be the one which would be the best fit who could afford to.

soundman45 · 01-06-2019 5:13pm

I read an article today I think in the Indo that DAA are looking to increase the number of coaches serving Dublin Airport and are in talks with current providers and are willing to offer free use of bus stops at the Airport with no departure fees etc. If Aircoach is for sale we have some major players here also that could bid ie Matthews, JJ Kavanagh, Eirebus etc all have big wallets.

belfast stephen · 01-06-2019 7:27pm

just a side note i see Aircoach have close there pasanger office in the Mall in Glengall street in Belfast

embraer170 · 01-06-2019 8:34pm

soundman45 wrote: »

I read an article today I think in the Indo that DAA are looking to increase the number of coaches serving Dublin Airport and are in talks with current providers and are willing to offer free use of bus stops at the Airport with no departure fees etc. If Aircoach is for sale we have some major players here also that could bid ie Matthews, JJ Kavanagh, Eirebus etc all have big wallets.

How about improving the coach facility? it is pretty dreadful.

soundman45 · 01-06-2019 9:18pm

belfast stephen wrote: »

just a side note i see Aircoach have close there pasanger office in the Mall in Glengall street in Belfast

And the should have set up something along Patricks Quay in Cork for passengers to pre purchase tickets and a basic waiting room etc that would also have increased passenger numbers further.

Stephen15 · 02-06-2019 1:23am

devnull wrote: »

As well as saying that they would be selling Greyhound, they have confirmed that their non US Bus operations are also to be separated from the group so that would most certainly include Aircoach.

I wonder would be likely to sell off their entire UK and Irish bus operation to a single entity or sub divide it up into different parts and sell it off bit by bit. If the former it could be the case where one operator buys them over including their Aircoach operation although this may not get approved by competition authorities in the UK especially if it's an already established operator within the UK.

Of course there is not much space up there, but even if Go-Ahead could store half a dozen or so vehicles up there it would help them for their Northside routes. It doesn't need to be a fully fledged depot. In addition with Aircoach running coach services primarily focusing on the South side of Dublin, a few coaches could be stabled at Ballymount when not in use, but I realise there is only a few hours a day that they won't be.

I'm not saying it's ideal since Aircoach don't need an extensive depot as unlike Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, they operate the same timetable 7 days a week 364 days a year and all their services are pretty much 24 hours, but I can see that there is some logic in it and out of the possible Irish buyers, Go-Ahead would be the one which would be the best fit who could afford to.

I would take the Go-Ahead rumours with somewhat a pinch of salt considering GA don't have a huge amount of expierence with coach operations in general over in the UK it will certainly be interesting to see how their BE operations go.

Although GAI will likely come up with any rumours when it comes to any tenders or operators up for sale due to them being one of the few international operators to dip their toe into the Irish market just like Transdev and First were long rumoured to be the chosen operator to win the contract for DB routes before GAI ended up entering the Irish market and winning the contract.

I wonder what would be likelihood of the intercity Cork and Belfast operations and their Dublin operations to be split up for a potential sale. GAI would be better placed for their Dublin operation due the fact their routes are mostly relatively short in distance and Dublin focused and may make it a more affordable prospect for indigenous interest from the likes of Dualway, Dublin Coach, Eirebus, Matthews, Mortons, JJK etc.

While their long distance operations could attract more international interest as I wonder would the likes of the new European bus operators such as Flixbus be interested especially in their Intercity routes.

Isambard · 02-06-2019 3:46pm

devnull wrote: »

If you're talking about the X90 and the Airline routes then that's a pretty uninspiring route, with a poor livery, poor marketing and seating that is nothing to really shout about, it comes across as a bus company trying to run a coach route, which is exactly what it is. The vehicles are uninspiring Plaxtons as well.

shame...Oxford Souith Midlnad were amongst the best and most innovative National Bus Companies.

Isambard · 02-06-2019 3:47pm

from various bus groups on fb, the smart money is on the whole company being sold in one block. I doubt anyone really knows at this stage.

Stephen15 · 03-07-2019 12:38pm

According to Aircoach on social media there was some fake news going around that their services had been suspended which turns out to be bs and all services are running normally. Could the rumours be something to do with this?

bk · 03-07-2019 1:14pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

According to Aircoach on social media there was some fake news going around that their services had been suspended which turns out to be bs and all services are running normally. Could the rumours be something to do with this?

Weird one, seems it was mentioned on radio news!

Non of us are saying that Aircoach are going anywhere. It is a highly profitable company (4.7m profit last year). We were speculating that the parent company might sell it on as a going concern, but they certainly wouldn't shout it down, that is a mad idea!

I suppose it is possible they could pull out on the Belfast route, given the strong competition there, focus their coaches elsewhere. But no signs of that happening.

devnull · 03-07-2019 2:01pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

According to Aircoach on social media there was some fake news going around that their services had been suspended which turns out to be bs and all services are running normally. Could the rumours be something to do with this?

No. It's people misunderstanding a poorly worded tweet about their Dublin telephone line being down. Nothing more nothing less.

belfast stephen · 03-07-2019 3:55pm

cant see them pulling there belfast Route its always busy and carries good passanger numbers

Mr.Frame · 05-07-2019 9:37pm

soundman45 wrote: »

I read an article today I think in the Indo that DAA are looking to increase the number of coaches serving Dublin Airport and are in talks with current providers and are willing to offer free use of bus stops at the Airport with no departure fees etc. If Aircoach is for sale we have some major players here also that could bid ie Matthews, JJ Kavanagh, Eirebus etc all have big wallets.

Hi ,
Would you by any chance have a link to the above article ?
Thanks

bk · 06-07-2019 11:02am

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Hi ,
Would you by any chance have a link to the above article ?
Thanks

I assume this:
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-airport-will-offer-incentives-for-buses-to-provide-24hour-services-38169461.html

soundman45 · 06-07-2019 11:20am

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Hi ,
Would you by any chance have a link to the above article ?
Thanks

Just google Aircoach for sale, get all the links and info then.

Mr.Frame · 06-07-2019 5:17pm

soundman45 wrote: »

Just google Aircoach for sale, get all the links and info then.

Thanks , will do

mondeo · 09-07-2019 12:30pm

Don't know about Aircoach but I'm surprised Airport Hopper is still doing business. Every time I use them there is literally 3 people on the bus. Usually I am away overseas 2 times a month for business, I always get the airport hopper home from the airport, every time I am on it there are 3 or so souls on board the whole way from Dublin Airport to the Square Dublin 24. How are these guys still doing business ? I see them during the days to and never seen a bus full of people.

soundman45 · 09-07-2019 1:37pm

Hopper is running every 30 mins from Maynooth now, they must have done a deal with Dept of Social as they now accept free travel also, but they are small players in the market running mini buses. Aircoach is a different story, we always hear Bus Eireann crying looking for state handouts yet Aircoach is a very profitable business with nett profits of approx 5 million per annum which with some investment should be more as especially on the Cork route they struggle to meet demand and are constantly paying contractors to operate extra services.

end of the road · 09-07-2019 1:56pm

soundman45 wrote: »

Hopper is running every 30 mins from Maynooth now, they must have done a deal with Dept of Social as they now accept free travel also, but they are small players in the market running mini buses. Aircoach is a different story, we always hear Bus Eireann crying looking for state handouts yet Aircoach is a very profitable business with nett profits of approx 5 million per annum which with some investment should be more as especially on the Cork route they struggle to meet demand and are constantly paying contractors to operate extra services.

to be fair bus eireann run mostly PSO routes which can generally be loss making. they do have expressway which is their commercial arm but they won't and don't get government money for that, it has to survive on it's own.
aircoach run fully commercial routes that are profitable.

bk · 10-07-2019 10:43am

end of the road wrote: »

to be fair bus eireann run mostly PSO routes which can generally be loss making. they do have expressway which is their commercial arm but they won't and don't get government money for that, it has to survive on it's own.
aircoach run fully commercial routes that are profitable.

BE Expressway does however get an unfair indirect advantage from the subsidised side of the business.

They get to use the same depots, bus stations, drivers, mechanics, website, marketing team, ticketing system, etc., etc. which have been paid by the tax payer and are subsidised by PSO.

A very unfair advantage if you ask me. Expressway should really be fully separated from BE PSO and perhaps even sold off. They should be paying the full market cost of access to all these services.

There is also an argument that many of BE's PSO services could easily be run as for profit services, with no need for subsidy, if offered to private companies. Commercial companies would love to operate any of the commuter routes into Dublin, even without a subsidy, but are blocked from doing so.

Stephen15 · 10-07-2019 11:08am

bk wrote: »

They get to use the same depots, bus stations, drivers, mechanics, website, marketing team, ticketing system, etc., etc. which have been paid by the tax payer and are subsidised by PSO.

Fair point but you could also say that other private operators operating PSO routes such as JJK, M+A Coaches and GAI (if they decide to operate commercial routes) are having their purely commercial side subsidised by the profits made from taxpayers money through PSO.

A very unfair advantage if you ask me. Expressway should really be fully separated from BE PSO and perhaps even sold off. They should be paying the full market cost of access to all these services.

There has already been progress in this regard we know the pace of change is painfully slow in Ireland. Before the NTA existed there was no distinction between PSO and Expressway services now there is.

There is also an argument that many of BE's PSO services could easily be run as for profit services, with no need for subsidy, if offered to private companies. Commercial companies would love to operate any of the commuter routes into Dublin, even without a subsidy, but are blocked from doing so.

Yes but many of DBs PSO routes could also be run as for profit private routes doesn't mean they should as then there would be bus wars and a mess of privately operated routes like what happened when there was bus deregulation in the UK. Even some highly profitable services like the Luas are PSO

Markcheese · 10-07-2019 11:15am

There's also the fact that BE expressways routes quite often have to wind their way along the n roads to serve small towns and villages,
While the majority want to go city to city, or to the airport, cork Dublin eircoach (straight up the motorway) is hours faster than on regular BE expressway,

end of the road · 10-07-2019 11:41am

bk wrote: »

BE Expressway does however get an unfair indirect advantage from the subsidised side of the business.

They get to use the same depots, bus stations, drivers, mechanics, website, marketing team, ticketing system, etc., etc. which have been paid by the tax payer and are subsidised by PSO.

that's just a legacy thing though from when the lot was 1 bus operator across the whole country. it's an advantage but it's not really an issue, the big operators both here and abroad who may wish to enter could afford their own facilities anyway. and the NTA can build their own if they feel such is warrented, or if db or bus eireann have any spare and are willing to sell, pay the market value to buy them.

bk wrote: »

A very unfair advantage if you ask me. Expressway should really be fully separated from BE PSO and perhaps even sold off. They should be paying the full market cost of access to all these services.

selling off expressway removes income from the company though.
i would be surprised if expressway doesn't in accounting terms pay full cost for the use of facilities as it stands.

bk wrote: »

There is also an argument that many of BE's PSO services could easily be run as for profit services, with no need for subsidy, if offered to private companies.

i wouldn't think very many of them fit into that territory though. even if they do, they are probably routes to vital to simply be left to the commercial sector.

bk wrote: »

Commercial companies would love to operate any of the commuter routes into Dublin, even without a subsidy, but are blocked from doing so.

i'm sure they probably would, but those routes are an example of the ones to vital to simply be left to commercial private companies to run on commercial terms. they need to be controlled like all of the other PSO routes so that the user can have confidents that they will remain in place.

bk · 10-07-2019 12:19pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Fair point but you could also say that other private operators operating PSO routes such as JJK, M+A Coaches and GAI (if they decide to operate commercial routes) are having their purely commercial side subsidised by the profits made from taxpayers money through PSO.

Well GAI are purely PSO services, right?

JJK and M+A Coaches, do they operate any significant PSO services? The vast majority of their routes are non subsidised. So if anything you could argue that the PSO side is actually benefiting from their commercial sides facilities.

The problem with BE is that it is the other way around. The vast majority of BE services are PSO and most of the company is financed as such. Their commercial expressway services are comparatively much smaller and thus greatly benefit from having access to the taxpayer paid for facilities. Which is a very unfair advantage to their competitors.

Having said all that, I'm very happy to say that any service operating PSO routes, needs to have completely separate companies and where facilities are shared, it is correctly accounted for and those facilities made available to competitors at the same rates.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but many of DBs PSO routes could also be run as for profit private routes doesn't mean they should as then there would be bus wars and a mess of privately operated routes like what happened when there was bus deregulation in the UK. Even some highly profitable services like the Luas are PSO

No one is suggesting that! You should know better.

The alternative model is the licensed model that the NTA operate on the likes of the various intercity routes. Operators licensed to operate at certain times, frequencies etc. and their license pulled if they don't meet that license.

BTW Luas isn't a PSO route. It is contracted out to be run by a commercial operator and is mostly run at a profit and receives no subsidy.

What I'm saying is that many of the BE Dublin commuter routes could be licensed out to various operators similar to the intercity routes at no cost to the taxpayer.

Two operators like that in city services makes no sense as you well know. But instead the GAI/Luas model of contracting out bundles of routes makes sense for city services.

Markcheese wrote: »

There's also the fact that BE expressways routes quite often have to wind their way along the n roads to serve small towns and villages,
While the majority want to go city to city, or to the airport, cork Dublin eircoach (straight up the motorway) is hours faster than on regular BE expressway,

Well they have no one but themselves to blame for that.

They could have applied for the direct licenses from the NTA, the same as the private operators did. But BE said their was no demand for such services :rolleyes:

As the new motorways started opening up, people were crying out for such services, but BE were far too slow to respond to customer demand, which is an ongoing problem with them.

end of the road wrote: »

that's just a legacy thing though from when the lot was 1 bus operator across the whole country. it's an advantage but it's not really an issue, the big operators both here and abroad who may wish to enter could afford their own facilities anyway. and the NTA can build their own if they feel such is warrented, or if db or bus eireann have any spare and are willing to sell, pay the market value to buy them.

Of course it is an issue. Just like it was an issue that Telecom Eireann owned all the phone lines.

TE/Eir were forced to open up their telephone liens and broadband services, which is now why we have the likes of Vodafone and Sky operating over Eir phone lines and these companies pay the same rate as Eir's retail side does. It creates a fair market.

The BE bus depots and stations should of course be opened up to all companies to create a level playing field in the same manner.

end of the road wrote:

selling off expressway removes income from the company though.
i would be surprised if expressway doesn't in accounting terms pay full cost for the use of facilities as it stands.

Except Expressway has been making substantial losses the last few years and finally only made a small profit last year.

Which is quiet shocking and shows how inept BE are when you consider all the advantages they have and they still struggle to make a profit.

BE would actually probably be financially better off without Expressway!

end of the road wrote:

i'm sure they probably would, but those routes are an example of the ones to vital to simply be left to commercial private companies to run on commercial terms. they need to be controlled like all of the other PSO routes so that the user can have confidents that they will remain in place.

No reason at all why the NTA can't set out requirements for the license, such as schedule, frequency, etc. and pull the license if it isn't matched.

Stephen15 · 10-07-2019 1:53pm

bk wrote: »

Well GAI are purely PSO services, right?

JJK and M+A Coaches, do they operate any significant PSO services? The vast majority of their routes are non subsidised. So if anything you could argue that the PSO side is actually benefiting from their commercial sides facilities.

The problem with BE is that it is the other way around. The vast majority of BE services are PSO and most of the company is financed as such. Their commercial expressway services are comparatively much smaller and thus greatly benefit from having access to the taxpayer paid for facilities. Which is a very unfair advantage to their competitors

At the moment they are but there's nothing stopping GAI starting to run commercial routes if they wanted to in the future using the same depot, drivers and maintenance as they use for their PSO contracts. So you could say GAI would be using taxpayer funded even resources to provide a commercial service if indirectly

Having said all that, I'm very happy to say that any service operating PSO routes, needs to have completely separate companies and where facilities are shared, it is correctly accounted for and those facilities made available to competitors at the same rates.

I'm not sure what facilities you are talking. For bus stations I agree with you though they should be allowed to be used by all services if not all PSO services provided by BE and other operators and not allow Expressway to use it.

No one is suggesting that! You should know better.

The alternative model is the licensed model that the NTA operate on the likes of the various intercity routes. Operators licensed to operate at certain times, frequencies etc. and their license pulled if they don't meet that license.

BTW Luas isn't a PSO route. It is contracted out to be run by a commercial operator and is mostly run at a profit and receives no subsidy.

I know no one was suggesting that I was just using it as an example to put into context for you.

I don't think opening the market while removing BE services on commuter routes would work very well. There already are some services competing with BE on commuter routes for example the likes of Matthew's and Ashbourne Connect but a lot of these services are more limited than BE PSO services.

Also these services accept Leap cards I know many privates also accept Leap cards but that's out of choice not requirement for example Aircoach don't. We also know that other than licencing routes there's little interference that the NTA are allowed to partake in when it comes to the commercial bus market under EU law.

Well they have no one but themselves to blame for that.

They could have applied for the direct licenses from the NTA, the same as the private operators did. But BE said their was no demand for such services :rolleyes:

As the new motorways started opening up, people were crying out for such services, but BE were far too slow to respond to customer demand, which is an ongoing problem with them.

I agree with you there now. But I would make the argument that many of the Expressway routes should be turned into PSO routes either fully or partially as there appears to be little interest by most private operators to compete with BE on those routes.

Of course it is an issue. Just like it was an issue that Telecom Eireann owned all the phone lines.

TE/Eir were forced to open up their telephone liens and broadband services, which is now why we have the likes of Vodafone and Sky operating over Eir phone lines and these companies pay the same rate as Eir's retail side does. It creates a fair market.

The BE bus depots and stations should of course be opened up to all companies to create a level playing field in the same manner.

You can't really open up their depots as atm there's only enough space to park all the BE buses that they have. Look I'm not here to defend BE I'm defending the concept of PSO bus routes whether they be operated by public operators like DB or BE or private operators like GAI or JJK.

Except Expressway has been making substantial losses the last few years and finally only made a small profit last year.

Which is quiet shocking and shows how inept BE are when you consider all the advantages they have and they still struggle to make a profit.

BE would actually probably be financially better off without Expressway!

Yes I agree but many of the Expressway routes are a relic from days of before PSO even existed and should be made into PSO routes either partially or fully.

No reason at all why the NTA can't set out requirements for the license, such as schedule, frequency, etc. and pull the license if it isn't matched.

Thought the NTA weren't allowed get involved in certain elements of the service on commercial routes for example fares which should be subsidised on all PSO routes whether profit making or not.

Aircoach up for sale?

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