Everest

Grayson · 29-05-2019 1:43pm

B0jangles wrote: »

But you see you MIGHT get killed in a freak cushion accident while sitting quietly on the sofa , just as you MIGHT get killed if you play russian roulette while skydiving with a cyanide capsule held between your teeth so who are we to judge?

Most people look at the odds, at their personal circumstances and judge accordingly.

And it's not that risky. Loads of people do it every year. You take the proper precautions, you train etc and it's not that bad.

The excessive deaths this year are caused by tailbacks near the summit so what would take 8 hours now takes 20. And people can't take that strain.

(not: I'm not saying it's safe. I just saying it's not as risky as some people make out).

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 1:46pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

pc7 wrote: »

I stopped going off piste as I got older (maybe wiser!) and as more people starting wearing helmets I started wearing one as it was good common sense. I still enjoy skiing, I still ski black runs but just stick to the proper runs.

It’s bad but whenever I hear about a celebrity dying or being injured skiing, I always just think “Oh, off on an off-piste adventure, were they?”. But Natasha Richardson, Liam Neeson’s late wife, was having a beginner’s lesson when she picked up the head injury that sadly killed her.

That’s it and anyone can be unlucky or in the wrong place at the wrong time or do all the right things and it can still end badly. Who knows why sometimes, can be so random.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 29-05-2019 1:58pm

Apparently there's people up there who aren't even in shape.

Some yank doctor who climbed it recently gave a damning report of the experience to the mail. He said Sherpas are literally shoving clients up parts. They've it all laid out so that any muppet whose body can cope with altitude can climb it.

tuxy · 29-05-2019 2:01pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Apparently there's people up there who aren't even in shape.

Some yank doctor who climbed it recently gave a damning report of the experience to the mail. He said Sherpas are literally shoving clients up parts. They've it all laid out so that any muppet whose body can cope with altitude can climb it.

So many people saying don't be stupid they aren't being carried up but that sounds fairly close.
There should be a service where your sherpas drive a sled with you sitting on it for the sections where the gradient isn't extreme.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-05-2019 2:50pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

This is interesting.

Indian Police couple found lying about summiting Everest and fired.

Link

Muppets! :pac:

sporina · 29-05-2019 3:25pm

Coincidently I started reading Into Thin Air about a month ago.. so was reading it when Seamus lost his life and since then, amidst all the media.. and while reading this thread here..

I had a series of dreams last night about various loved one's doing the climb.. while reading this book has been enthralling, I won't be sad when i'm finished it..; think I just have one more night of it..

fits · 29-05-2019 3:48pm

I read all the Everest books and watched all the documentaries a few years ago. It’s fascinating but that feeds the whole machine too. I’d love to see it though. See what it’s really like. Without any desire to actually summit. I know my body wouldn’t cope anyway after some time at high altitude in Bolivia a few years ago.

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 4:18pm

Grayson wrote: »

And it's not that risky. Loads of people do it every year. You take the proper precautions, you train etc and it's not that bad.

The excessive deaths this year are caused by tailbacks near the summit so what would take 8 hours now takes 20. And people can't take that strain.

(not: I'm not saying it's safe. I just saying it's not as risky as some people make out).

Those tails backs are a disgrace as you say people being delayed at that high altitude could be the difference between life and death.That would be my major gripe especially after paying all that money and then being left waiting in the queue in the death zone.It seems morally reprehensible.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-05-2019 4:21pm

Blaizes wrote: »

Those tails backs are a disgrace as you say people being delayed at that high altitude could be the difference between life and death.That would be my major gripe especially after paying all that money and then being left waiting in the queue in the death zone.It seems morally reprehensible.

Well, everyone in the queue would have paid as much. In years where there are only short weather windows, the congestion is probably unavoidable if everyone who paid wants to summit. To avoid it, some people would have to willingly drop out.

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 4:37pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, everyone in the queue would have paid as much. In years where there are only short weather windows, the congestion is probably unavoidable if everyone who paid wants to summit. To avoid it, some people would have to willingly drop out.

True buy why not limit the number of permits issued to reduce the queuing time.This would speed things up enabling people to ascend and descend without delay. It seems like the sensible and responsible thing to do.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-05-2019 4:42pm

Blaizes wrote: »

True buy why not limit the number of permits issued to reduce the queuing time.This would speed things up enabling people to ascend and descend without delay. It seems like the sensible and responsible thing to do.

Follow the money. The permits brings in money and every person given one then puts even more money into the Nepalese economy.

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 4:57pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Blaizes wrote: »

True buy why not limit the number of permits issued to reduce the queuing time.This would speed things up enabling people to ascend and descend without delay. It seems like the sensible and responsible thing to do.

Follow the money. The permits brings in money and every person given one then puts even more money into the Nepalese economy.

Yes, that’s it I suppose isn’t it, hard to know what to do but maybe as someone said here do more base camp trips to supplement income while reducing permits for summiting Everest.

Crusty Jocks · 29-05-2019 5:58pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Apparently there's people up there who aren't even in shape.

Some yank doctor who climbed it recently gave a damning report of the experience to the mail. He said Sherpas are literally shoving clients up parts. They've it all laid out so that any muppet whose body can cope with altitude can climb it.

It's the other way around, its called short-roping, a technique used to assist someone in trouble with their descent but its been used by sherpas on Everest to drag or pull weaker clients up the mountain, its done in tandem, less effort for the person being hauled up. It's not like the other person is just limp flat on their back taking in the view, but still it's ridiculous.

If interested look into Sandy Pittman who John Krakauer claimed was essentially carried up the mountain in his book. Again, I mentioned in this thread his book although a great read needs to be taken with a pinch of salt in parts. Pittman was a very accomplish high altitude climber before Everest, he made out like she was just some rich kid trying to get to the top without a clue about climbing...he even went as far as to say she had a cappuccino machine hauled up the mountain for her by sherpas, she just had one of those french coffee pots that percolate from the bottom. If you're a heavy coffee drinker it's essential you keep up your intake at high altitude, you can have serious withdrawals.

Here's an Irish Times review of his book...fairly damning and takes everything he said as gospel, this review was written after his first edition, he subsequently had to include apologies in his prologue in later editions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/peaks-of-folly-1.108387

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 29-05-2019 6:30pm

Crusty Jocks wrote: »

It's the other way around, its called short-roping, a technique used to assist someone in trouble with their descent but its been used by sherpas on Everest to drag or pull weaker clients up the mountain, its done in tandem, less effort for the person being hauled up. It's not like the other person is just limp flat on their back taking in the view, but still it's ridiculous.

If interested look into Sandy Pittman who John Krakauer claimed was essentially carried up the mountain in his book. Again, I mentioned in this thread his book although a great read needs to be taken with a pinch of salt in parts. Pittman was a very accomplish high altitude climber before Everest, he made out like she was just some rich kid trying to get to the top without a clue about climbing...he even went as far as to say she had a cappuccino machine hauled up the mountain for her by sherpas, she just had one of those french coffee pots that percolate from the bottom. If you're a heavy coffee drinker it's essential you keep up your intake at high altitude, you can have serious withdrawals.

Here's an Irish Times review of his book...fairly damning and takes everything he said as gospel, this review was written after his first edition, he subsequently had to include apologies in his prologue in later editions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/peaks-of-folly-1.108387

Even in more considered accounts, Pittman still sounds like she was a complete dose though.

josip · 29-05-2019 6:41pm

Blaizes wrote: »

Yes, that’s it I suppose isn’t it, hard to know what to do but maybe as someone said here do more base camp trips to supplement income while reducing permits for summiting Everest.

The two aren't remotely comparable.
You can trek easily to Base Camp without any mountaineering experience and thousands do so every year.
As long as you can survive for a week on either Dal Bhat or out of date Mars bars.

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 6:53pm

josip wrote: »

Blaizes wrote: »

Yes, that’s it I suppose isn’t it, hard to know what to do but maybe as someone said here do more base camp trips to supplement income while reducing permits for summiting Everest.

The two aren't remotely comparable.
You can trek easily to Base Camp without any mountaineering experience and thousands do so every year.
As long as you can survive for a week on either Dal Bhat or out of date Mars bars.

I never said they were remotely comparable but wouldn’t it be responsible to limit permits to the summit and diversify income stream into other areas like base camp trips. If people don’t qualify for a permit for the year they want to climb well tough they can wait, go else where or do base camp. It beats sending queues and queues of people to the death zone from which increasing numbers this year are not returning. That’s how I’d see it anyway.

josip · 29-05-2019 7:21pm

Blaizes wrote: »

I never said they were remotely comparable but wouldn’t it be responsible to limit permits to the summit and diversify income stream into other areas like base camp trips. If people don’t qualify for a permit for the year they want to climb well tough they can wait, go else where or do base camp. It beats sending queues and queues of people to the death zone from which increasing numbers this year are not returning. That’s how I’d see it anyway.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a permit quota.
But the suggestion that someone who wants, and has the financial wherewithal, to summit Everest would be ok with walking to Base Camp while they're waiting is unrealistic.
Other 8,000ers ok, but Base Camp? No way.

tuxy · 29-05-2019 7:24pm

Even the idea of other 8000m peaks is probably out of the question, most don't do Everest for the love of mountaineering.

FixdePitchmark · 29-05-2019 7:25pm

I've watched so much stuff on everst it's kind of fascinating.

You tube also has generated amazing footage.

Pictures from it a bit embarrassing for humanity. Also you'd imagine people into the outdoors would have far more respect for the environment, the people and the place.

Hillary was just an outstanding human being. He basically became a local.

It sounds like real mountaineers have given up on everst . There are far more interesting and empty climbs in the world .

It was posted well early on in the thread . Only humans could do what they have done to everst.
Even the amount of ropes on it is strange.

peasant · 29-05-2019 7:28pm

Grayson wrote: »

And it's not that risky. Loads of people do it every year. You take the proper precautions, you train etc and it's not that bad.

The excessive deaths this year are caused by tailbacks near the summit so what would take 8 hours now takes 20. And people can't take that strain.

(not: I'm not saying it's safe. I just saying it's not as risky as some people make out).

There are over 200 bodies still up on that mountain, some of them being used as landmarks (google Everest rainbow valley if you can stomach it)

If using dead bodies as landmarks doesn't spell "risky" for you then I don't know what possibly could.

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 7:31pm

josip wrote: »

I don't have a problem with the idea of a permit quota.
But the suggestion that someone who wants, and has the financial wherewithal, to summit Everest would be ok with walking to Base Camp while they're waiting is unrealistic.
Other 8,000ers ok, but Base Camp? No way.

Yes I agree but give them that option which they will most likely find laughable as you say and then let them go elsewhere.

tuxy · 29-05-2019 7:37pm

Blaizes wrote: »

Yes I agree but give them that option which they will most likely find laughable as you say and then let them go elsewhere.

How would turning people off the idea of spending large amounts of money for an Everest permit benefit the Nepalese government?

Grandeeod · 29-05-2019 7:43pm

If Walt Disney had bought a mountain, he would have bought Mount Everest.

Blaizes · 29-05-2019 7:45pm

tuxy wrote: »

How would turning people off the idea of spending large amounts of money for an Everest permit benefit the Nepalese government?

I never said it would be.

tuxy · 29-05-2019 7:48pm

Blaizes wrote: »

I never said it would be.

Why would the government of a poor nation do it then?

J Mysterio · 29-05-2019 8:54pm

Crusty Jocks wrote: »

It's the other way around, its called short-roping, a technique used to assist someone in trouble with their descent but its been used by sherpas on Everest to drag or pull weaker clients up the mountain, its done in tandem, less effort for the person being hauled up. It's not like the other person is just limp flat on their back taking in the view, but still it's ridiculous.

If interested look into Sandy Pittman who John Krakauer claimed was essentially carried up the mountain in his book. Again, I mentioned in this thread his book although a great read needs to be taken with a pinch of salt in parts. Pittman was a very accomplish high altitude climber before Everest, he made out like she was just some rich kid trying to get to the top without a clue about climbing...he even went as far as to say she had a cappuccino machine hauled up the mountain for her by sherpas, she just had one of those french coffee pots that percolate from the bottom. If you're a heavy coffee drinker it's essential you keep up your intake at high altitude, you can have serious withdrawals.

Here's an Irish Times review of his book...fairly damning and takes everything he said as gospel, this review was written after his first edition, he subsequently had to include apologies in his prologue in later editions.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/peaks-of-folly-1.108387

RE: Sandy Pittman, that is a good point well made. It always seemed to me that she was probably unfairly castigated by Krakaeur. Though I am yet to read his book, I imagine she probably just wasn't his sort of person.

She did climb all 'Seven Summits'. A pretty exclusive club, so she can't have been that useless. Everest was also one of the last, if not the last for her, so she had strong experience behind her. I think she was probably a convenient person to single out as a kind of microcosm of the macro problem of inexperienced climbers.

On a semi related note, I found this interview very interesting RE the Krakaeur V Boukreev narrative accounts.

Separately, I wonder should this conversation be moved to a new thread out of respect for Lawless and family. The thread has raised some interesting points and it would be good to keep it going, but seems inappropriate to do that here and I feel kinda bad for that.

The Satanist · 30-05-2019 6:50am

Noel Hanna is on Morning Ireland now

gozunda · 30-05-2019 6:54am

From the UK Times. It would appear that on the day he summitted- there were no issues with queues on the mountain.

Noel Hanna, 52, an experienced climber from Co Down, was leading a team of three climbers including Mr Lawless, Jenny Copeland, 40 from Co Meath, and Saray Khumalo, 47, from South Africa. He said the group had a “perfect summit” on the morning on May 16 because there was no traffic and no wind. He said tragedy struck shortly after the group arrived at the balcony to get new oxygen for the push to camp 4, which is at 7,950 metres.

Mr Hanna said he stopped for a break at the balcony but Mr Lawless said he was “feeling strong” and decided to go ahead accompanied by his sherpa.

“He was nearly at camp 4 and he had to go to the toilet, so he unclipped himself. At that stage the wind had started to pick up and a gust came and he was blown off the side of the mountain.”

Mr Hanna said he launched a search operation with Mr Lawless’s sherpa after he arrived at camp 4 about an hour after the fall. He said the area where they believed he fell was extremely steep and the crew were unable to access it due to gusts of wind, which had picked up to 40 kilometres an hour.

“I couldn’t believe it because we were so close to camp, he was almost there, it was just one of those things where I wish we could have been able to find him,” he added.

Mr Hanna said unclipping from the rope for various reasons, including to go to the toilet, was not uncommon but it was fatal in this instance because it was “the wrong time and the wrong place”. He said he was devastated but all climbers were aware of the risks.

“Seamus was the strongest of my group,” he said. “I wouldn’t have done anything differently, it was a perfect summit, and what happened was a freak accident.”

After the crew arrived back at base camp, a helicopter search commenced but was unsuccessful at locating Mr Lawless’s body

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/irish-climber-seamus-lawless-died-after-unclipping-safety-rope-r3dr9r77d?_ga=2.251300742.1443928156.1559174254-1547425136.1548270501

pc7 · 30-05-2019 7:17am

Noel Hanna was on Morning Ireland before 8am, same as above. Said he was 200m from camp 4 and probably felt safe as he could see it. Absolutely horrific, just so freaky. Said they had no queue issues, longest wait was 2-3 minutes while someone maybe went up a ladder.

tuxy · 30-05-2019 8:56am

Did he talk about Ravi Thakar who was also died on the team that had the perfect summit?
Or was it reported incorrectly and he was just with the same expedition group but not team?

pc7 · 30-05-2019 9:55am

tuxy wrote: »

Did he talk about Ravi Thakar who was also died on the team that had the perfect summit?
Or was it reported incorrectly and he was just with the same expedition group but not team?

He didn't mention anyone else, I'd say you'll get it on podcast its only about 4 mins long.

Wibbs · 30-05-2019 10:37am

J Mysterio wrote: »

On a semi related note, I found this interview very interesting RE the Krakaeur V Boukreev narrative accounts.

Reinhold Messner, that man is a bloody legend. Among his many "firsts" he was the first to summit Everest without oxygen, the first to summit it solo and the first to summit all 8000 metre peaks and to do them without oxygen. It would be interesting and informative to hear his thoughts on the current state of Everest climbing. I suspect he'd not approve one little bit.

NabyLadistheman · 30-05-2019 10:59am

This thread has been very informative. If any small positive can come from these deaths it is the info people are getting regarding the perils of Everest. I have seen the photos, clicked the links, read the articles, bought the books and have been fully engrossed in Everest for over a week. Still in shock how tough it is, even before you get up to the highest altitude. People are bonkers going near it in my opinion but if that's the way you are wired good luck to you

J Mysterio · 30-05-2019 11:57am

Wibbs wrote: »

Reinhold Messner, that man is a bloody legend. Among his many "firsts" he was the first to summit Everest without oxygen, the first to summit it solo and the first to summit all 8000 metre peaks and to do them without oxygen. It would be interesting and informative to hear his thoughts on the current state of Everest climbing. I suspect he'd not approve one little bit.

He talks about it a little here (41:59). I guess he sees the current practice as tourism.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-05-2019 2:29pm

pc7 wrote: »

Noel Hanna was on Morning Ireland before 8am, same as above. Said he was 200m from camp 4 and probably felt safe as he could see it. Absolutely horrific, just so freaky. Said they had no queue issues, longest wait was 2-3 minutes while someone maybe went up a ladder.

This makes me sad. I mean, I always thought it was sad. But the reason this gets to me is that he was probably fully aware and conscious when he was blown off the ridge. If he had been suffering from the effects of the low oxygen atmosphere, there would be hope that maybe he wasn’t fully aware of his predicament. But this is different. Of course, maybe the decision to unclip to take a whizz so close to camp was made from an exhausted place. Other climbers have also said that their decision-making abilities were very compromised in the death zone because the brain is an oxygen-hungry fecker. Poor Seamus. Just really unfortunate and unlucky.

pc7 · 30-05-2019 2:52pm

Totally agree ODB, if you felt he'd queue'd for hours or felt weak you could maybe say it was one of those things. But for him to go on ahead without Noel because he was feeling stronger and up to it, as Noel was helping the female climbers with their googles etc. who were weaker just seems so unlucky. His poor family, I cant even imagine trying to tell a 4 year old daddy isn't coming home.

vriesmays · 30-05-2019 3:50pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Reinhold Messner, that man is a bloody legend. Among his many "firsts" he was the first to summit Everest without oxygen

Wow, how long did he hold his breath for.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-05-2019 4:01pm

vriesmays wrote: »

Wow, how long did he hold his breath for.

Funny mental image alert. Somebody ascending Everest with chipmunk cheeks.

tuxy · 30-05-2019 4:36pm

360 Expeditions have two posts on their facebook page with more details about Kevin Hynes.
The family came out and said they didn't want the tragic event to diminish the success of other members of the team.

https://www.facebook.com/360Expeditions/

MY BAD · 30-05-2019 5:57pm

I don't know if this video was posted here yet but it came up on my YouTube timeline.

Warning some gruesome scenes in it
https://youtu.be/tcmH0__c7aw

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-05-2019 5:58pm

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

I don't know if this video was posted here yet but it came up on my YouTube timeline.

Warning some gruesome scenes in it
https://youtu.be/tcmH0__c7aw

That’s the video that most affected me. The mealy-mouthed doctor interviewed annoyed me.

recedite · 30-05-2019 6:25pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

That’s the video that most affected me. The mealy-mouthed doctor interviewed annoyed me.

Did you not feel sorry for her?
First two summit attempts spoiled when she lost her Sherpas.
Third one spoiled when she had to treat someone else's Sherpa whose fingers were frozen off.
Finally got to the top on the fourth attempt, using new Sherpas.

IvoryTower · 30-05-2019 6:53pm

Ah jaysus that's put me right off it again. It's a joke really. Tables, beers, dvds lol. Talk about ruining the magic for real climbers.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 30-05-2019 6:59pm

recedite wrote: »

Did you not feel sorry for her?
First two summit attempts spoiled when she lost her Sherpas.
Third one spoiled when she had to treat someone else's Sherpa whose fingers were frozen off.
Finally got to the top on the fourth attempt, using new Sherpas.

No. She still wanted to summit after seeing how dangerous it was for the Sherpas setting things up. And she was questioning the ethics of climbing the mountain but was very determined to do so herself even after seeing death and destruction two years on the trot. I found her insincere. And, I’m sorry, but her attempt was “spoiled” by Sherpas dying? Yes, poor her. How awful. :rolleyes:

NIMAN · 30-05-2019 7:40pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

Ah jaysus that's put me right off it again. It's a joke really. Tables, beers, dvds lol. Talk about ruining the magic for real climbers.

"I did it, just like Hillary and Tenzing".

Yeah, of course you did.:rolleyes:

Posy · 30-05-2019 8:08pm

recedite wrote: »

Did you not feel sorry for her?
First two summit attempts spoiled when she lost her Sherpas.
Third one spoiled when she had to treat someone else's Sherpa whose fingers were frozen off.

I feel more sorry for the sherpas, to be honest.

odyssey06 · 30-05-2019 8:09pm

[PHP][/PHP]

recedite wrote: »

Did you not feel sorry for her?
First two summit attempts spoiled when she lost her Sherpas.
Third one spoiled when she had to treat someone else's Sherpa whose fingers were frozen off.
Finally got to the top on the fourth attempt, using new Sherpas.

Sherpas are liked huskies or tauntauns to some people.

Dante7 · 30-05-2019 8:25pm

Here's a video of a virtual ascent using Google Earth images.

I also agree that the thread title should now be changed to something that reflects the continuing interest in Everest, but removes Shay's tragedy from the title.

https://youtu.be/UTxpNiA_Ujc

recedite · 30-05-2019 8:28pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Sherpas are liked huskies or tauntauns to some people.

Looks like she adopted the injured one, and brought him home with her.
The video shows him in her clinic, looking up at her with sad eyes, and showing the stumps where his hands and fingers used to be.

Effects · 30-05-2019 8:33pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

Tables, beers, dvds lol. Talk about ruining the magic for real climbers.

Real climbers drink beer.

Everest

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