Self service tills and job losses

Kermit.de.frog · 23-05-2019 11:47AM #1

As a customer the proliferation of these in supermarkets is great. It's fast, easy to use.

As a worker maybe not so much.

The attraction for stores is not only customer convenience but cutting staff overheads simultaneously.

A local small supermarket recently went all in on self service tills in recent months and now have pretty much no till workers.

The change was dramatic like overnight a number of till workers were simply laid off.

But the effect is even more dramatic in my local Tesco - about 10 tills and all but one with a till worker (at the busiest time) - and one other person overseeing multiple self service tills.

There has been a lot said about technology effecting jobs but this is probably the most visible sign of it I have seen so far.

One wonders what the people who had those jobs or would have had them are going to do.

Surprised more has not been said about it in relation to job losses which across the country must be a lot, many thousands?

Hopefully these workers can train up and get other jobs.

jester77 · 23-05-2019 11:49AM

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

Wichita Lineman · 23-05-2019 11:51AM

jester77 wrote: »

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

The Davestator · 23-05-2019 11:52AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

As a customer the proliferation of these in supermarkets is great. It's fast, easy to use.

As a worker maybe not so much.

The attraction for stores is not only customer convenience but cutting staff overheads simultaneously.

A local small supermarket recently went all in on self service tills in recent months and now have pretty much no till workers.

The change was dramatic like overnight a number of till workers were simply laid off.

But the effect is even more dramatic in my local Tesco - about 10 tills and all but one with a till worker (at the busiest time) - and one other person overseeing multiple self service tills.

There has been a lot said about technology effecting jobs but this is probably the most visible sign of it I have seen so far.

One wonders what the people who had those jobs or would have had them are going to do.

Surprised more has not been said about it in relation to job losses which across the country must be a lot, many thousands?

Hopefully these workers can train up and get other jobs.

You think that's bad - think of all the bank teller jobs lost with the introduction of ATM's.:rolleyes:

Silly argument born out of a silly Facebook post doing the rounds

heebusjeebus · 23-05-2019 11:52AM

Plenty of jobs around that people can move into, with a bit of training. Healthcare is a big one that will see very little automation.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/26/jobs-future-automation-robots-skills-creative-health

Automation could also produce new roles that we don't initially see coming.

kneemos · 23-05-2019 11:53AM

Plenty of alternative work available at the moment.

Kermit.de.frog · 23-05-2019 11:53AM

The Davestator wrote: »

You think that's bad - think of all the bank teller jobs lost with the introduction of ATM's.:rolleyes:

Silly argument born out of a silly Facebook post doing the rounds

I'm not arguing against it.

I just hope the people who would have had those jobs can get jobs elsewhere.

We need to prepare for a world where a lot of people simply won't have jobs to get.

3DataModem · 23-05-2019 11:56AM

There are lots of jobs that are absolutely going to go the same way pretty quickly in the forseeable;

- any job driving a vehicle (truck, delivery, taxi)... once self-driving cars hit a tipping point globally owning a car will be a super expensive luxury (as insurance for manual cars will go through roof). Businesses will be first to adopt.

- any assembly job in a high-wage country... if your job is assembling stuff on a production line (e.g. assembling imported PC parts or similar) then your days or numbered

Also some schools of thought say that GPs and solicitors as we now know them will begin to disappear as technology and machine learning will eat their lunch for 80% of what they do.

kneemos · 23-05-2019 11:57AM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm not arguing against it.

I just hope the people who would have had those jobs can get jobs elsewhere.

We need to prepare for a world where a lot of people simply won't have jobs to get.

This automation apocalypse has been going on for decades.

Here we are with full employment.

KildareP · 23-05-2019 11:59AM

Don't worry, what will happen after a few months is the shop will have been unwilling to pay for the maintenance and upkeep on these tills.

One by one the self-service tills will all cease working until eventually the entire lot will sit there, either with an error screen or more likely powered down altogether, and roped off from access.

What few remaining attended tills are left will have massive queues of people at them until the shop has no choice but re-add back in attended tills in their place again.

TuringBot47 · 23-05-2019 12:01PM

Well apparently if you want a job sitting on your ass all day giving things a quick scan, then building inspector seems to be an alternative career, or financial regulator.

kneemos · 23-05-2019 12:06PM

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

Other people are,thus maintaining employment rates.

Get Real · 23-05-2019 12:09PM

kneemos wrote: »

This automation apocalypse has been going on for decades.

Here we are with full employment.

Couldn't agree more. In relation to self service tills in supermarkets etc, I don't think they have much of an impact on jobs. People aren't fired over them, but rather, placed on stocking/taking deliveries/counting safe etc so the back end of the business is run more efficiently.

Worked in a large chain in my college days and that single store employed circa 75 people. It now has 15 self service tills. But still employees around 75 people (+/- your usual 5 or 6 that may involve people leaving and difficulty hiring in current market).

The staff rate is based on a percentage of sales. Those staff can now be used to improve overall efficiencies in cleaning customer areas/cooking/food prep/stock etc.

For example, instead of having 5 human tills, and 3 staff in the back. A place may now have two human tills, and 5 in the back. Unloading goods more quickly, ensuring stock doesn't run out and there's no missed sales potential, an extra body for the bakery in the back etc.

We've had complaints of automation from the days of many men and horses being used to transport Guinness, to a changeover to a single man or two in a truck doing the work of hundreds.

There aren't thousands of unemployed horsemen today. Jobs don't disappear in periods of economic growth, new ones emerge.

Wheety · 23-05-2019 12:22PM

KildareP wrote: »

Don't worry, what will happen after a few months is the shop will have been unwilling to pay for the maintenance and upkeep on these tills.

One by one the self-service tills will all cease working until eventually the entire lot will sit there, either with an error screen or more likely powered down altogether, and roped off from access.

What few remaining attended tills are left will have massive queues of people at them until the shop has no choice but re-add back in attended tills in their place again.

This is not going to happen. Maintenance for these machines is much cheaper than wages for staff to sit there. Why do you thing they're becoming so prolific? For the customer?

Immortal Starlight · 23-05-2019 12:23PM

Hopefully there will be more than one assistant to help when 20 self service tills decide they have “an unexpected item in the bagging area”.

KildareP · 23-05-2019 12:24PM

Wheety wrote: »

This is not going to happen. Maintenance for these machines is much cheaper than wages for staff to sit there. Why do you thing they're becoming so prolific? For the customer?

Number of shops I regularly frequent (not going to name names on here) where the situation is just as I've described

El_Duderino 09 · 23-05-2019 12:31PM

The Davestator wrote: »

You think that's bad - think of all the bank teller jobs lost with the introduction of ATM's.:rolleyes:

Silly argument born out of a silly Facebook post doing the rounds

It's not a silly argument. The closer automation comes to your job the less silly It will become to you.

I think we need to seriously consider the impact of so many low skilled jobs being lost. What does that do to supply/demand of low skilled workers? It increases supply and reduces a demand so low skilled wages are driven down (or don't rise).

More people who work will need government support because wages aren't enough to live on. So we pay for it one way or the other through the products we buy or through tax and social welfare.

Not a silly or trivial issue thought.

Wheety · 23-05-2019 12:32PM

KildareP wrote: »

Number of shops I regularly frequent (not going to name names on here) where the situation is just as I've described

The grocery stores I know, at most, has 1 or 2 out. With 5 or 6 working.

Although B&Q have removed their self-service tills. Maybe it doesn't really work when people are buying large DIY items.

23-05-2019 12:33PM

what have people ever done as technology replaces the need for labour?

gotten on with it, adapated.

we're hardly worse off than we were before the loom was invented are we

El_Duderino 09 · 23-05-2019 12:38PM

kneemos wrote: »

This automation apocalypse has been going on for decades.

Here we are with full employment.

Full employment usually means wages rise. This time wages are stagnant for the lower paid people (on the whole wages are going up but that driven by the Higher earners who's wages are rising)

Full employment isn't the end. You need everyone's wages to rise for the benefits to be realised.

Automation is taking jobs. That's not really debatable. It creates a few jobs and replaces lots of jobs. Businesses and people adapt but there's no doubt that lower skilled jobs are being affected

my3cents · 23-05-2019 12:38PM

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

loyatemu · 23-05-2019 12:39PM

we're starting to see moves towards shorter working weeks in some industries:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/13/age-of-four-day-week-workers-productivity

there's nothing wrong with automation per se, the danger is if it just fuels corporate profits while driving down wages.

_Brian · 23-05-2019 12:45PM

Wichita Lineman wrote: »

I seriously doubt that any of the laid off workers are now in any of those jobs you mention.

This is going to sound mean but literally for decades students have been warned to get a good education and skill themselves to avoid automation taking their jobs.

Retail counter staff are easy pickings when it comes to automation.

TuringBot47 · 23-05-2019 12:46PM

my3cents wrote: »

I wonder how good are these Self Service Tills are at catching shop lifters. The ones that don't pay for anything.

A reduction in staff looks like an invitation to shop lift?

Stores perform "random" checks on the receipts versus grocery bag contents.
Although depending on how dodgy you look/dress, the randomness of the checking may be skewed against you.
Whether or not an item found in your bag but not scanned through could be considered shoplifting or not, who knows.

But if you've put a barcode of a bottle of water over the barcode of a bottle of whiskey I imagine you could fool the system, but not a cashier.

Amazon are trying out stores with no cashiers or checkouts at all.
They track what you pick up.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/2/18122772/amazon-testing-larger-cashier-less-stores-report

kneemos · 23-05-2019 12:47PM

loyatemu wrote: »

we're starting to see moves towards shorter working weeks in some industries:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/13/age-of-four-day-week-workers-productivity

there's nothing wrong with automation per se, the danger is if it just fuels corporate profits while driving down wages.

Nothing to do with automation,just better productivity.

MrMusician18 · 23-05-2019 12:50PM

Get Real wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. In relation to self service tills in supermarkets etc, I don't think they have much of an impact on jobs. People aren't fired over them, but rather, placed on stocking/taking deliveries/counting safe etc so the back end of the business is run more efficiently.

Worked in a large chain in my college days and that single store employed circa 75 people. It now has 15 self service tills. But still employees around 75 people (+/- your usual 5 or 6 that may involve people leaving and difficulty hiring in current market).

The staff rate is based on a percentage of sales. Those staff can now be used to improve overall efficiencies in cleaning customer areas/cooking/food prep/stock etc.

For example, instead of having 5 human tills, and 3 staff in the back. A place may now have two human tills, and 5 in the back. Unloading goods more quickly, ensuring stock doesn't run out and there's no missed sales potential, an extra body for the bakery in the back etc.

We've had complaints of automation from the days of many men and horses being used to transport Guinness, to a changeover to a single man or two in a truck doing the work of hundreds.

There aren't thousands of unemployed horsemen today. Jobs don't disappear in periods of economic growth, new ones emerge

The unemployed horsemen are all dead. The issue with automation and employment is not one which effects young people generally, but those in the mid to late stages of their career who find their jobs automated out of existence. Sure they could retrain but at that late state their options are limited. As low skill work evaporates, there are fewer options for these people.

There is no law of nature that says new technology will replace all the jobs it displaces

kazamo · 23-05-2019 12:55PM

In my local library there are self service machines for taking out or returning books.
The staff are very actively encouraging people to use these machines, almost to the point as to ask why you're not using them.

Was personally against this development as it reduces human interaction further as well as reduce the need to employ people. But after being asked numerous times had I been shown how to use the machine, I have gone over to the dark side.

Have no issue with technology, just believe that libraries are more about community and interaction.

my3cents · 23-05-2019 12:57PM

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Stores perform "random" checks on the receipts versus grocery bag contents.
Although depending on how dodgy you look/dress, the randomness of the checking may be skewed against you.
Whether or not an item found in your bag but not scanned through could be considered shoplifting or not, who knows.

But if you've put a barcode of a bottle of water over the barcode of a bottle of whiskey I imagine you could fool the system, but not a cashier.

Amazon are trying out stores with no cashiers or checkouts at all.
They track what you pick up.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/2/18122772/amazon-testing-larger-cashier-less-stores-report

I'm just referring to the fact that if large shop has very few staff will it encourage shop lifting to the extent that either prices go up or more security staff are employed?

Or does the reduction in staffing costs from the SST's balance any increase in shop lifting?

23-05-2019 01:05PM

jester77 wrote: »

On the other side, lots of jobs created designing the system, writing the software, developing the hardware, installing it, maintaining it and running it.

plus all the HR, health and safety stuff etc, surrounding all the firms providing the system, installing it, maintaining it and so on.

Outlaw Pete · 23-05-2019 01:09PM

On the plus side, it's created lots of jobs for people that can shout Next!

branie2 · 23-05-2019 01:09PM

Libraries have them as well

Self service tills and job losses

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