Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

mountgomery burns · 20-05-2019 1:49pm

DiscoStew wrote: »

All last week posters on here called for Conor Gleeson to be moved to the backs. He was moved in on a man marking role on Bubbles seemingly but was getting roasted and was moved out with Prunty moving in. How that can be equated to him playing their last year is beyond me. Bubbles was just too good for him yesterday unfortunately, he was moved pretty quickly in an attempt to rectify the situation but unfortunately the damage continued.
My vantage point wasn’t spectacular however so I could be mistaking Bubbles and Forde, both were doing a lot of damage early on.

I'd find it hard to credit that Bubbles could be too quick for him, especially to that extent conceding 0-3 in 3 minutes. He's only back after the shoulder surgery, think he was feeling the effects of the full game last week because he's very fast himself.

whiteandblue · 20-05-2019 1:53pm

DiscoStew wrote: »

All last week posters on here called for Conor Gleeson to be moved to the backs. He was moved in on a man marking role on Bubbles seemingly but was getting roasted and was moved out with Prunty moving in. How that can be equated to him playing their last year is beyond me. Bubbles was just too good for him yesterday unfortunately, he was moved pretty quickly in an attempt to rectify the situation but unfortunately the damage continued.
My vantage point wasn’t spectacular however so I could be mistaking Bubbles and Forde, both were doing a lot of damage early on.

Conor Gleeson has more regularly played in defense than midfield for Waterford despite normally wearing 9.

Throughout 2017, 2 years ago, Gleeson was named midfield throughout the year but played in the backs as man marker. He marked Alan Cadigan, Richie Hogan, Conor McDonald and Conor Lehane out of games. He was nominated for an All-Star in defense and YHOTY.

He was cleaned out even before he was sent off yesterday and the sending off was silly but deserved in my opinion. He wasn't the only one who didn't play well unfortunately but he's a top class intercounty in my opinion and will have better days ahead as will the whole panel.

DiscoStew · 20-05-2019 2:00pm

whiteandblue wrote: »

Conor Gleeson has more regularly played in defense than midfield for Waterford despite normally wearing 9.

Throughout 2017, 2 years ago, Gleeson was named midfield throughout the year but played in the backs as man marker. He marked Alan Cadigan, Richie Hogan, Conor McDonald and Conor Lehane out of games. He was nominated for an All-Star in defense and YHOTY.

He was cleaned out even before he was sent off yesterday and the sending off was silly but deserved in my opinion. He wasn't the only one who didn't play well unfortunately but he's a top class intercounty in my opinion and will have better days ahead as will the whole panel.

Agree totally. Very bad day at the office for him but he’s shown his ability on many occasions previously and will bounce back.

upthedeise16 · 20-05-2019 2:03pm

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I'd find it hard to credit that Bubbles could be too quick for him, especially to that extent conceding 0-3 in 3 minutes. He's only back after the shoulder surgery, think he was feeling the effects of the full game last week because he's very fast himself.

I think the space in front of Bubbles made it next to near to impossible for anyone to mark, halfback line pulled out and left ample space. The runs weren’t straight runs like the Waterford forwards also, they were diagonal and the ball was delivered in to a space and because of the game plan, the Tipp forwards knew where the ball was going and naturally, as they knew they’d knew where it was going, they’d a head start. After the first 10 minutes, the halfback line recognized this and Tadhg began to sweep which was a big help.

Just showed the importance of a game plan and good movement from forwards, gave them that few yards of space to collect the ball and they weren’t receiving the ball miles out or running away from goal so they could turn left, or right and pop it over.

Jjjjjjjjbarry · 20-05-2019 2:05pm

I'm still baffled at the sight of Noel Connors running out 10 yards behind his man. He's normally at least shoulder to shoulder.

Deisegodeo · 20-05-2019 2:06pm

So many issues it's hard to know where to begin. One thing is for certain, the poor performances in the league final and particularly the Clare game last week can't be put down to a bad day, as many had hoped. Unfortunately yesterday confirmed the suspicion after the Clare game that this team is struggling badly for form and looks to be devoid of a coherent game plan that everyone buys into and executes.

Watching the warm up yesterday, you could see how poor the first touch of the Waterford players was, and this continued into the game itself. We just look like a poorly prepared team unfortunately.

But even allowing for sideline problems, there has appeared to me in the 2 games to date to be a lack of 100% effort and focus from some Players, which is really alarming. Players second to every ball, fellas not on their toes ready for passes or making runs to support team mates.

So while we can still qualify, it just would require such a turn around from everything we have seem so far, that it seems most unlikely. It is so disheartening to be going out in May again. Imagine to think we were a single score from Galway in the all Ireland final less than 2 years ago.

blueflame · 20-05-2019 3:34pm

Maybe I am wrong, but from what i could see Gleeson started full back on the assumption Callinan would start there and when Bubbles started in full forward they switched Connors and Gleeson, but as I say i could be wrong - if i am, i take back what i said. If i get over the way i am feeling I might just watch the replay and see for myself , I have to admit that sometimes being at a game live you see things very different from watching it up close on TV

Jjjjjjjjbarry · 20-05-2019 3:40pm

My recollection is that Gleeson started on Bubbles to do a man marking job while Prunty went out the field to pick up Callinan who I assume he was picked to mark for height matching - even though it seemed bizzare that our new full back wasn't in at full back.
Then when Bubbles was roasting Gleeson, they switched Prunty on to him. Meanwhile, Gleeson who was now on Callinan got a silly yellow for messing and it all went wrong from there.

I'm also now wondering why the Brick was such a regular in the league and didn't get a look in for two important games, especially the one against Clare on a tight pitch where his experience would have been worth a few yards of pace. Ok he had an awful league final and was taken off at half time. But he was started midfield in Croke Park against Limerick. That was a crazy selection to begin with. Against Clare we could really have used him in the half forwards to hold up the ball. Bit late now but why play him so much in the league at his age and not used him at all in the championship. Also, Stephen Bennett has played every game since the Munster League so could well do with a good rest this weekend so thankfully we don't have 3 games in 3 weeks.

Hopefully we get everything right the next day against Limerick and at least see the next two games out with something positive to look back on.

PTH2009 · 20-05-2019 3:42pm

http://www.hoganstand.com/Waterford/Article/Index/299441

thesaturdayman · 20-05-2019 3:52pm

Re my Offaly comment;

from 2015 - 2019 to date;

Hurling;
Minor - 3 wins from 14 games 21.4% win rate lowest in Munster
u20/21 - 3 wins from 6 games 50% win rate (2 of which came in same season)

Football;
Minor - 1 win from 12 games 8.3% win rate lowest in Munster
u20/21 - 0 wins from 4 games 0% win rate lowest in Munster

If you go from 2009 - 2019 to date;

Hurling;
Minor - 14 wins from 34 games 41.1% win rate (11 wins in 6 seasons 2009-2014)
u20/21 - 4 wins from 13 games 30.7% win rate (1 win in 6 seasons 2009 - 2014)

Football;
Minor - 4 win from 26 games 15.3% win rate lowest in Munster
u20/21 - 0 wins from 10 games 0% win rate lowest in Munster

Our regression at minor hurling & u20/21 hurling is alarming in recent years results have really dipped off - what are the reasons for this? Is it the poor quality championships at club level?

Also we havent won a game at u21 football in over a decade! Can any one tell me the last time we did win a game at this grade?? My God that is appalling!

It is hard to stand over or justify those numbers, we arent tipp or cork i appreciate but we should expect to be winning more games particularly in hurling considering the millions pumped into these development squads / coaching and games!

Stacksofwacks · 20-05-2019 5:48pm

I dont know what point your trying to make really, The reality is we are the smallest county in Munster along with Clare so those kind of figures you are quoting are not surprising really. Our minors this year whilst losing both games have been close enough. Before winning in 2013 we hadnt won an All Ireland minor since 1948, so if you look at it in those terms this decade is one of our most successful at underage if you take into account winning an U21 title aswell. On the football side of things we have never won a Munster minor and possibly never will. The realities of a being a medium to small sized GAA county skewed towards hurling.

PTH2009 · 20-05-2019 6:11pm

limerick will bring a huge crowd down in 2 weeks but its hard too knw what support we will have considering our form atm. Ill deff be going as its the AI champions in our own back yard.

A big big effort will be needed by us too get something out of the game. Could be a bloodbath if we play like we did yesterday. Big 2 weeks ahead in training

Crusty Blaa · 20-05-2019 6:11pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I think the forwards are at fault themselves, but I'm also going to focus on their coaching and the type of ball the backs are instructed to deliver.

I had a better look at the Clare game and need to examine yesterday in more detail, but the runs which our inside forwards make are so simple and repetitive that you'd expect it at underage level.

It's no surprise that they did a bit of damage in the league, and since the league semi final I think onwards they've been shut down by every team they've faced. They've figured out what Waterford are doing and prepared for it. There isn't a major Plan B except for throwing Maurice in for 15 mins.

In addition, the ball going into them isn't good enough in my opinion - too 50:50. For the last few years now we've been bombing ball out of defence without a top ball winner in there, and you'd have to wonder about what instructions guys are getting, and their ability to read a game when they're out there.

Watching Limerick in the league final, they drilled precision ball up the field and didn't waste possession. Their touch was excellent, and they pinged three precise balls in a situation where Waterford would try and launch a hit and hope ball. This might suit the Waterford team better - particularly if they have good link players like Barron who has unreal work-rate.

But I'm sure these lads on the sideline have considered all this and decided that the current approach is best.

You’re right regarding the runs our forwards make. It might work at club level if you have a bit more pace than your marker but at inter county you have to be cleverer.

Don’t know if anyone else noticed it but even when Tipp didn’t have the ball their forwards were running into different positions and not giving their markers any peace. I know it’s only a simple thing but it’s these things that give a team an edge.

chinguetti · 20-05-2019 6:45pm

The problems mentioned here from yesterday didn't happen overnight, its been going on since the league but was masked by getting to the league final. Aimless high balls into the forwards, patchy play and lack of an obvious plan were there when we played Dublin.

Calling for the management to go or get rid of half the panel is knee jerk and silly. We all know its not going to happen. This year is all but gone so it would be better to put a proper plan in place and look to the future.

And yes, I know there's little hope of a proper plan being put in place.

Ian OB · 20-05-2019 7:40pm

Meanwhile, over in Offaly

PTH2009 · 20-05-2019 8:22pm

Ian OB wrote: »

Meanwhile, over in Offaly

The CB here would not be that brave tbh

Stacksofwacks · 20-05-2019 8:24pm

Ian OB wrote: »

Meanwhile, over in Offaly

I dont like to see that tbh. these are amateurs and its not the premiership and sacking managers halfway through the season shouldnt happen. But at the end of the year should the position be reviewed, absolutely.

DiscoStew · 20-05-2019 9:09pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

The CB here would not be that brave tbh

If the Offaly county board is the yardstick I just don’t know what to say to you..

You are an embarrassment of a “fan”

Jjjjjjjjbarry · 20-05-2019 9:11pm

Ian OB wrote: »

Meanwhile, over in Offaly

A sad day for Offaly and Kevin Martin. It's not so long ago he was hailed as a hero and even Michael Duignan was tweeting about him with tears in his eyes. Sport can be cruel.

Road-Hog · 20-05-2019 9:25pm

Don’t know what to think about the rapid decline in our fortunes in the past 20 months. 3 pts away from an all Ireland victory to an utter hiding yesterday.....there is no way the guys skill level or ability could have regressed rapidly.......is it purely down to the guys trying to adapt to a new ‘system’ / tactics that are too far removed to what they were used to under McGrath.....?

Unlikely to beat LK after yesterday’s trimming mentally it surely will have taken its toll.....however if we could get a victory then the final game v cork would be interesting......they managed to get back on track yesterday v limerick are we not capable of same....!

Also will be interesting to see what other teams do to Clare in their next game. Will put a bit of perspective on their victory over us.....?

20-05-2019 10:28pm

A lot of talk about how our form declined over since the 2017 AI final but only a year before that we had a trimming of 5-19 0-13 against Tipp in the Munster final.

Really hoping to see a response from the players/management. Not expecting us to qualify but would like to see some sort of progression here and get back to getting the basics right.

Jjjjjjjjbarry · 20-05-2019 10:38pm

Was reading earlier that we're on a run of 8 munster games in a row without a win and since our last munster title in 2010, we've only won 4 from our last 18 munster championship games. Very poor in fairness.

20-05-2019 10:43pm

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Was reading earlier that we're on a run of 8 munster games in a row without a win and since our last munster title in 2010, we've only won 4 from our last 18 munster championship games. Very poor in fairness.

Am I right in saying last Munster championship win was against clare in 2016. Defeat in the Munster final the same year. 2017 defeat to cork and then last year just the draw v Tipp.

Going off those kind of stats would have you believe that we're being to harsh on players/management, they would appear to have their work cut out.

Jjjjjjjjbarry · 20-05-2019 10:47pm

914 wrote: »

Am I right in saying last Munster championship win was against clare in 2016. Defeat in the Munster final the same year. 2017 defeat to cork and then last year just the draw v Tipp.

Yeah I think that's right. We got the great run to the final through the back door in 2017. The back door has been good to us really! Without it, we'd have had a lot of short summers.

20-05-2019 10:51pm

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Yeah I think that's right. We got the great run to the final through the back door in 2017. The back door has been good to us really! Without it, we'd have had a lot of short summers.

Agreed for some reason we seem to perform at the back door stages.

2017 we had wins over Kilkenny, wexford, cork the noticeable ones.

If we look deeper we could argue it took us extra time to beat a poor Kilkenny side. Wexford very negitive and cork with 14 men for large parts of the game.

Not taking away from the victories but they could have hid a lot of our problems considering it was only the year before were Tipp hammered us

hurler on de ditch · 20-05-2019 11:02pm

HillFarmer wrote: »

We don't have the forwards for me.

How many of our current forwards would make it on the Tip/ Cork Limerick team?
We have no ball winners up front.

I think our back six can mix it with the best and our midfield when we play it tight.
Tough on the lads as they have trained hard but I can't see us getting any result in the last two games.

any kind of decent ball into the forward line and we have serious ball winners .two Bennets are brilliant .Shane in particular is probably the hardest working forward in the game ,he was murdered under Mc Grath and looking like a fall guy now. Stephen most have the best touch of all the Waterford players ,but again overworked. Maurice is deadly and
battled extremely hard the entire half. Four if not five against two if you count the tipp goalie .yep our midfield and backs are solid .what is it exactly we've conceded in two games .maybe blame that on the forwards as well

hurler on de ditch · 20-05-2019 11:05pm

914 wrote: »

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Was reading earlier that we're on a run of 8 munster games in a row without a win and since our last munster title in 2010, we've only won 4 from our last 18 munster championship games. Very poor in fairness.

Am I right in saying last Munster championship win was against clare in 2016. Defeat in the Munster final the same year. 2017 defeat to cork and then last year just the draw v Tipp.

Going off those kind of stats would have you believe that we're being to harsh on players/management, they would appear to have their work cut out.

Its no coincidence we only average an All Ireland once every 60/70 years

upthedeise16 · 20-05-2019 11:07pm

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

any kind of decent ball into the forward line and we have serious ball winners .two Bennets are brilliant .Shane in particular is probably the hardest working forward in the game ,he was murdered under Mc Grath and looking like a fall guy now. Stephen most have the best touch of all the Waterford players ,but again overworked. Maurice is deadly and
battled extremely hard the entire half. Four if not five against two if you count the tipp goalie .yep our midfield and backs are solid .what is it exactly we've conceded in two games .maybe blame that on the forwards as well

Serious ball winners? What matches have you been watching?

Jjjjjjjjbarry · 20-05-2019 11:31pm

How bad was Philip Mahony's injury?

At least he has two weeks to recover.

Spatters · 20-05-2019 11:50pm

thesaturdayman wrote: »

Re my Offaly comment;

from 2015 - 2019 to date;

Hurling;
Minor - 3 wins from 14 games 21.4% win rate lowest in Munster
u20/21 - 3 wins from 6 games 50% win rate (2 of which came in same season)

Football;
Minor - 1 win from 12 games 8.3% win rate lowest in Munster
u20/21 - 0 wins from 4 games 0% win rate lowest in Munster

If you go from 2009 - 2019 to date;

Hurling;
Minor - 14 wins from 34 games 41.1% win rate (11 wins in 6 seasons 2009-2014)
u20/21 - 4 wins from 13 games 30.7% win rate (1 win in 6 seasons 2009 - 2014)

Football;
Minor - 4 win from 26 games 15.3% win rate lowest in Munster
u20/21 - 0 wins from 10 games 0% win rate lowest in Munster

Our regression at minor hurling & u20/21 hurling is alarming in recent years results have really dipped off - what are the reasons for this? Is it the poor quality championships at club level?

Also we havent won a game at u21 football in over a decade! Can any one tell me the last time we did win a game at this grade?? My God that is appalling!

It is hard to stand over or justify those numbers, we arent tipp or cork i appreciate but we should expect to be winning more games particularly in hurling considering the millions pumped into these development squads / coaching and games!

Not sure you know what you’re talking about butty. One minute you’re all about the CB snd thr nxt minute you’re having a go. Get off the fence

Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

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